Duke @ Sticker?

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Is Duke worth sticker?

Yes
61
51%
No
58
49%
 
Total votes: 119

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Dany
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Re: Duke @ Sticker?

Postby Dany » Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:36 pm

rad lulz wrote:I wouldn't.

gman1978
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Re: Duke @ Sticker?

Postby gman1978 » Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:45 pm

Btw, a Duke prof told me anecdotally that there is definitely a relationship between aid and grades, and that people who attended there on a full ride or close to it make up a disproportionate part of the top GPAs.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Duke @ Sticker?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:11 pm

gman1978 wrote:Btw, a Duke prof told me anecdotally that there is definitely a relationship between aid and grades, and that people who attended there on a full ride or close to it make up a disproportionate part of the top GPAs.

Sure.

https://officialguide.lsac.org/Release/ ... lData.aspx

gman1978
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Re: Duke @ Sticker?

Postby gman1978 » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:28 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
gman1978 wrote:Btw, a Duke prof told me anecdotally that there is definitely a relationship between aid and grades, and that people who attended there on a full ride or close to it make up a disproportionate part of the top GPAs.

Sure.

https://officialguide.lsac.org/Release/ ... lData.aspx


What is this meant to show?

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Duke @ Sticker?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:35 pm

gman1978 wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:
gman1978 wrote:Btw, a Duke prof told me anecdotally that there is definitely a relationship between aid and grades, and that people who attended there on a full ride or close to it make up a disproportionate part of the top GPAs.

Sure.

https://officialguide.lsac.org/Release/ ... lData.aspx


What is this meant to show?

The story doesn't seem believable even without the financial aid data, but I threw it out there for good measure.

I can't imagine any professor knows the amount of financial aid each of his students receives, but even if he did there are so few students getting full-rides and near full-rides at Duke as to make your anecdote pointless.

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sinfiery
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Re: Duke @ Sticker?

Postby sinfiery » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:36 pm

Salary in current job? Job security? Room for growth?


I definitely would. It depends entirely upon the persons opportunity cost.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Duke @ Sticker?

Postby BruceWayne » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:36 pm

BigZuck wrote:For some reason I voted yes even though I will probably have this decision to make and I'm personally leaning toward taking the money at a state flagship over sticker at Duke. Although I would strongly consider it with 15K+ a year and that is basically what your "friend" is getting with COL taken care of.

People who are saying No aren't the same who say ED UVA with a straight face are they? Because as far as I can tell if Duke isn't worth it at sticker then neither is UVA, Michigan, Berkeley, Cornell, or Georgetown.


The only schools in the country worth sticker are HYS (in which case you probably won't be paying sticker because they do need based aid) or CCN for those who 100% want to work in NYC (I'm talking NYC is actually your first choice hands down--if you have a preference for some other location they aren't worth it either). None of the schools you mentioned are worth sticker ITE--especially not Georgetown. FYI I'm at UVA now paying sticker.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Duke @ Sticker?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:51 pm

BruceWayne wrote:The only schools in the country worth sticker ...CCN for those who 100% want to work in NYC (I'm talking NYC is actually your first choice hands down--if you have a preference for some other location they aren't worth it either).

Why the distinction?

dabbadon8
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Re: Duke @ Sticker?

Postby dabbadon8 » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:55 pm

The idea of paying back 200k+ is terrifying. I go to duke, I am happy with the school and my job search results. However, regardless of your outcome, being tied to that much debt is very limiting. Even if things go perfectly, that is a life altering amount of debt that will limit your ability to have kids, own a home, acquire investments, etc. for quite some time. If you have a significant other this will effect their ability to do those things as well, which may cause tension in your relationship (or prevent you from entering a serious one... I would definitely be hesitant to get involved with someone that deep in the hole). Don't make the mistake of being overly optimistic about your chances of paying it off quickly either. Even if you do land biglaw, thinking you can pay it off super quickly is a mistake. You may think you may be able to live like a monk now, but when you're working 70hrs a week, depriving yourself will likely feel substantially tougher than one can imagine.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Duke @ Sticker?

Postby BruceWayne » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:15 am

Tiago Splitter wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:The only schools in the country worth sticker ...CCN for those who 100% want to work in NYC (I'm talking NYC is actually your first choice hands down--if you have a preference for some other location they aren't worth it either).

Why the distinction?


From what I've seen it seem like taking the sticker risk might be somewhat worth it for Columbia and Chicago if your first choice is working in NYC. Honestly, I put CCN by habit. Because from what I've seen from their data I should not have included NYU on that list. Again though I'm being generous. The way things are now, if you can help it don't do sticker anywhere but HYS. But I understand people in the OP's situation (i.e. nothing on the table if they don't go to law school). Under those circumstances I can see rolling the dice on Columbia/Chicago for someone who really wants to work in NYC--especially Columbia.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Duke @ Sticker?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:40 am

BruceWayne wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:The only schools in the country worth sticker ...CCN for those who 100% want to work in NYC (I'm talking NYC is actually your first choice hands down--if you have a preference for some other location they aren't worth it either).

Why the distinction?


From what I've seen it seem like taking the sticker risk might be somewhat worth it for Columbia and Chicago if your first choice is working in NYC. Honestly, I put CCN by habit. Because from what I've seen from their data I should not have included NYU on that list. Again though I'm being generous. The way things are now, if you can help it don't do sticker anywhere but HYS. But I understand people in the OP's situation (i.e. nothing on the table if they don't go to law school). Under those circumstances I can see rolling the dice on Columbia/Chicago for someone who really wants to work in NYC--especially Columbia.

My question was more why one must want NYC hands down in order to make it worthwhile. I don't see why a born-and-bred New Yorker who only wants NYC is in a different position regarding sticker than someone who maybe would love to get back to a city like Miami or Minneapolis but is totally cool working in NYC if necessary. As long as that second guy is willing to use most of his OCI bids on NYC then I don't see the difference.

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JCougar
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Re: Duke @ Sticker?

Postby JCougar » Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:36 pm

The bottom half of the T14 at sticker is a horrible idea. Anything outside of HYS at sticker is less than prudent.

And paying sticker even at HYS pretty much means you have to work in Biglaw for 5-6 years to pay off that kind of debt. 0Ls get wide-eyed and mesmerized by the "prestige" and money involved in Biglaw, but understand that for many people, Biglaw is a hellhole at the associate level. You have close to zero job stability, work grueling hours, don't actually get good training and/or experience, and often have to put up with sociopathic assholes as supervisors.

So even HYS at sticker is not worth it unless you really want to put up with the insane Biglaw environment and try to shoot for partner.

My happiest lawyer friends are the ones that had connections beforehand, went to T2 schools with significant scholarships, and started working in small/midlaw. They don't make a ton, but their hours are great and they have almost no debt. And they have a very good shot at making partner eventually.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Duke @ Sticker?

Postby BruceWayne » Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:58 pm

JCougar wrote:The bottom half of the T14 at sticker is a horrible idea. Anything outside of HYS at sticker is less than prudent.

And paying sticker even at HYS pretty much means you have to work in Biglaw for 5-6 years to pay off that kind of debt. 0Ls get wide-eyed and mesmerized by the "prestige" and money involved in Biglaw, but understand that for many people, Biglaw is a hellhole at the associate level. You have close to zero job stability, work grueling hours, don't actually get good training and/or experience, and often have to put up with sociopathic assholes as supervisors.

So even HYS at sticker is not worth it unless you really want to put up with the insane Biglaw environment and try to shoot for partner.

My happiest lawyer friends are the ones that had connections beforehand, went to T2 schools with significant scholarships, and started working in small/midlaw. They don't make a ton, but their hours are great and they have almost no debt. And they have a very good shot at making partner eventually.


Preach.

BigZuck
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Re: Duke @ Sticker?

Postby BigZuck » Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:09 am

BruceWayne wrote:
JCougar wrote:The bottom half of the T14 at sticker is a horrible idea. Anything outside of HYS at sticker is less than prudent.

And paying sticker even at HYS pretty much means you have to work in Biglaw for 5-6 years to pay off that kind of debt. 0Ls get wide-eyed and mesmerized by the "prestige" and money involved in Biglaw, but understand that for many people, Biglaw is a hellhole at the associate level. You have close to zero job stability, work grueling hours, don't actually get good training and/or experience, and often have to put up with sociopathic assholes as supervisors.

So even HYS at sticker is not worth it unless you really want to put up with the insane Biglaw environment and try to shoot for partner.

My happiest lawyer friends are the ones that had connections beforehand, went to T2 schools with significant scholarships, and started working in small/midlaw. They don't make a ton, but their hours are great and they have almost no debt. And they have a very good shot at making partner eventually.


Preach.


Wait I'm confused. Is BruceWayne JCougar's alt or is JCougar BruceWayne's alt? It's hard to keep them straight.

BruceWayneCougar- what is an appropriate price to pay at Duke? How about UCLA? Texas? Vanderbilt? Just asking for me and others who are locked out of the T6 and are relegated to lower T14 and top 20ish schools.

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bk1
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Re: Duke @ Sticker?

Postby bk1 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:19 am

JCougar wrote:went to T2 schools... small/midlaw... but their hours are great... And they have a very good shot at making partner eventually.

This is definitely not always true, though I'm not sure which is more representative. It also ignores the fact that most T2 grads don't even become full time lawyers.

I'm not saying that T14s (or even HYS) at sticker is a fantastic idea, but it is disingenuous to compare the worst (or merely lesser) outcomes at T14s with the best (or merely greater) outcomes from T2s.

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sinfiery
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Re: Duke @ Sticker?

Postby sinfiery » Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:45 pm

Aggregating the debt from Duke at sticker to a 45 year working time frame, you get a present value sum that comes to being able to buy an annuity for 45 years equal to roughly $11,000.

This accounts for lost wages while in school with interest @ 30k/year avg for those 3 years, 10 year repayment + cost of interest, cost of attendance, and a few other things.


So basically, do you think this Duke law degree will generate an additional $11,000/year after taxes to your financial situation over 45 years?

If yes, it is financially efficient to do so, if no, it is not.


Past that, add on how you personally feel about being a lawyer vs whatever you do now and see if that is worth any value to change the decision in 1 way or another.

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JCougar
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Re: Duke @ Sticker?

Postby JCougar » Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:21 pm

bk1 wrote:
JCougar wrote:went to T2 schools... small/midlaw... but their hours are great... And they have a very good shot at making partner eventually.

This is definitely not always true, though I'm not sure which is more representative. It also ignores the fact that most T2 grads don't even become full time lawyers.

I'm not saying that T14s (or even HYS) at sticker is a fantastic idea, but it is disingenuous to compare the worst (or merely lesser) outcomes at T14s with the best (or merely greater) outcomes from T2s.


You clipped out "with connections" from my quote. If you have no legal industry connections, I just wouldn't go to law school except for a T10 with a scholarship.

The small/midlaw market is still more about who you know than about school/grade prestige. A TTT graduate with zero debt, top 50% grades, and good connections is in far better shape than someone bottom third at Duke with no industry connections and $200K in law school debt.

And no, all small law is not shitlaw by any means. There's plenty of smaller firms that do tax, corporate, employment, etc. that actually give you great experience. But those positions are filled through networking/family friends, etc. They don't pay a fortune, but they pay enough that if you have close to zero school debt, you'll be living an upper-middle-class lifestyle. And as long as you're somewhat competent, you have a very good chance of making partner.

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JCougar
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Re: Duke @ Sticker?

Postby JCougar » Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:36 pm

In essence, once you strike out with Biglaw/clerkships, etc., the advantage of going to a prestigious school is close to zero. A TTT grad with good connections will have a far easier path than the majority of Duke graduates who strike out at OCI.

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sinfiery
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Re: Duke @ Sticker?

Postby sinfiery » Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:47 pm

JCougar wrote:In essence, once you strike out with Biglaw/clerkships, etc., the advantage of going to a prestigious school is close to zero.

Anecdotal or do you have stats to back it up?

The only long-term survey I've seen on LS salaries was for UVA and all it told me was that UVA grads made bank.

I highly doubt that survey could be replicated for a TTT.

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beachbum
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Re: Duke @ Sticker?

Postby beachbum » Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:13 pm

I mean, I don't think anyone is arguing that the above-median TTT student with no debt and family connections to a local midlaw shop is worse off than the bottom third Duke student with massive debt and no connections. But that's a dumb comparison. I mean, the Chiefs are just as good as the Patriots, if the Patriots don't have Belichick and Brady and Gronkowski and everything else that makes the Patriots good. Damn dude.

Your T10 cutoff is also a head-scratcher. So you'd be fine with MVP with scholarship, but Duke or Northwestern or Cornell? NOPE.

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bk1
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Re: Duke @ Sticker?

Postby bk1 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:49 pm

JCougar wrote:And no, all small law is not shitlaw by any means. There's plenty of smaller firms that do tax, corporate, employment, etc. that actually give you great experience. But those positions are filled through networking/family friends, etc. They don't pay a fortune, but they pay enough that if you have close to zero school debt, you'll be living an upper-middle-class lifestyle. And as long as you're somewhat competent, you have a very good chance of making partner.

I'm not saying all small law is shitlaw, but I am saying it's not all sunshine and roses. The problem is that it's not entirely clear what percentage of small firms are actually decent jobs.

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JCougar
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Re: Duke @ Sticker?

Postby JCougar » Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:08 pm

sinfiery wrote:
JCougar wrote:In essence, once you strike out with Biglaw/clerkships, etc., the advantage of going to a prestigious school is close to zero.

Anecdotal or do you have stats to back it up?

The only long-term survey I've seen on LS salaries was for UVA and all it told me was that UVA grads made bank.

I highly doubt that survey could be replicated for a TTT.


You totally missed about five of my points.

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JCougar
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Re: Duke @ Sticker?

Postby JCougar » Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:14 pm

beachbum wrote:I mean, I don't think anyone is arguing that the above-median TTT student with no debt and family connections to a local midlaw shop is worse off than the bottom third Duke student with massive debt and no connections. But that's a dumb comparison. I mean, the Chiefs are just as good as the Patriots, if the Patriots don't have Belichick and Brady and Gronkowski and everything else that makes the Patriots good. Damn dude.

Your T10 cutoff is also a head-scratcher. So you'd be fine with MVP with scholarship, but Duke or Northwestern or Cornell? NOPE.


I'm just arguing that school rank isn't really all that strong of a job-getting tool once OCI is over. Biglaw/clerkships are pathologically obsessed with grades/rank "prestige," but the other law jobs out there are far more nonplussed. Connections is probably #1 outside OCI/Biglaw/clerkships. Fit/interest in the firm's practice areas is #2. Grades might be third or fourth, and school rank is probably a factor, but one of the least important ones. Going to a better school only really helps you as far as their OCI can help you with Biglaw. It's not going to help you get small law/midlaw.

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moneybagsphd
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Re: Duke @ Sticker?

Postby moneybagsphd » Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:16 pm

beachbum wrote:Your T10 cutoff is also a head-scratcher. So you'd be fine with MVP with scholarship, but Duke or Northwestern or Cornell? NOPE.

I agree w/ this: if MVPB is worth sticker, so is DNC. But I don't think any schools outside the T6 are worth sticker (at least to me).

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JCougar
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Re: Duke @ Sticker?

Postby JCougar » Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:20 pm

bk1 wrote:I'm not saying all small law is shitlaw, but I am saying it's not all sunshine and roses. The problem is that it's not entirely clear what percentage of small firms are actually decent jobs.


No, it's not clear how abundant they are, but there are decent midlaw and small law jobs that are doable and make you happy. It's only anecdotal, but I know some people with those kinds of jobs right now that love what they do and have little to no debt. They're far happier than my friends in Biglaw, that's for sure. But they got them with connections.

Of course, I still know quite a few TTT graduates that never found a full time job, or are working at a terribly shitty one. I'm not saying that this makes going to a TTT a good idea. But outside of OCI, rank doesn't matter much, and other factors are far more important.




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