Another question

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
bayareahopeful
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:35 pm

Another question

Postby bayareahopeful » Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:15 am

...
Last edited by bayareahopeful on Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
EvilClinton
Posts: 342
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:45 pm

Re: Another T2 full ride vs T1 $ or Full price question...

Postby EvilClinton » Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:20 am

Post your stats or GTFO.

User avatar
Dog
Posts: 371
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:00 am

Re: Another T2 full ride vs T1 $ or Full price question...

Postby Dog » Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:45 am

If you're guaranteed a job with your uncle I think it makes sense to follow the $$$. Your uncle would be better suited to give you advice than myself. But if both paths lead to the same end destination (working for your uncle) and one has $140k extra of debt, yeah...

bayareahopeful
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:35 pm

Re: Another T2 full ride vs T1 $ or Full price question...

Postby bayareahopeful » Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:45 am

EvilClinton wrote:Post your stats or GTFO.


wow, tell me how you really feel... 163 3.5

LeninLunchbox
Posts: 50
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:24 am

Re: Another T2 full ride vs T1 $ or Full price question...

Postby LeninLunchbox » Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:47 am

In terms of going to McGeorge for free the most important thing to keep in mind is that according to this https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub ... d3c&gid=13 60% of grads have no long-term employment of any kind. Even among lesser schools, that's pretty darn bad. Now, given that you seem to have employment lined up, I'm going to break with TLS-think for a moment and say it might be worth considering. BUT, as it seems exceedingly unlikely you will find any other legal job, ONLY if (1) that offer is rock solid (2) working in your uncle's practice is definitely what you want to do (3) the stipulations for keeping your scholarship are not ridiculous or you are absolutely prepared to drop out if you lose it AND (4) you really don't have anything better going in your current career plan.

As for going to Davis or Hastings and the like or even Santa Clara, yes, on an absolutely scale there is something to be said for that. That something, however, is not nearly enough to be said to justify going $140,000-$250,000 in debt. So I absolutely agree paying sticker is not very appealing. In fact, I'd use harsher words.

You have a full-ride offer from McGeorge in hand. I highly recommend you leverage that as hard as possible at the better schools at which you are admitted. There's still quite a bit of time left in the cycle and you may be surprised what you wind up with if you play your cards right.

User avatar
suralin
better than you
Posts: 15023
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:52 am

Re: Another T2 full ride vs T1 $ or Full price question...

Postby suralin » Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:48 am

EvilClinton wrote:Post your stats or GTFO.


+1

bayareahopeful
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:35 pm

Re: Another T2 full ride vs T1 $ or Full price question...

Postby bayareahopeful » Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:49 am

Suralin wrote:
EvilClinton wrote:Post your stats or GTFO.


+1

scroll up

bayareahopeful
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:35 pm

Re: Another T2 full ride vs T1 $ or Full price question...

Postby bayareahopeful » Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:51 am

Dog wrote:If you're guaranteed a job with your uncle I think it makes sense to follow the $$$. Your uncle would be better suited to give you advice than myself. But if both paths lead to the same end destination (working for your uncle) and one has $140k extra of debt, yeah...

Thanks for your reply, Dog. I'm not totally sure what I would do if I attended Hastings or Davis. But with USF, McGeorge, or Santa Clara, I would definitely see myself working with/for my uncle. I feel like I would have a lot more options with Davis and Hastings.

bayareahopeful
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:35 pm

...

Postby bayareahopeful » Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:55 am

...
Last edited by bayareahopeful on Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
thelawyler
Posts: 902
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:00 pm

Re: Another T2 full ride vs T1 $ or Full price question...

Postby thelawyler » Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:10 am

There are other ways to discover that than to pay 160k. Go with the full ride + uncle option.

LeninLunchbox
Posts: 50
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:24 am

Re: Another T2 full ride vs T1 $ or Full price question...

Postby LeninLunchbox » Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:20 am

Hastings or Davis will absolutely open way more doors for you than McGeorge. In another insane break with TLS-think I'm going to say it's possible your experience there might be enough better that you get a better idea of what you want to do along with your better shot. The problem is that that better shot is only 50/50 at a real lawyer job and in terms of getting a job that services serious debt more like 1/5. So to my financial eye it's simply insane to take out six-figure debt for that shot especially when you can get your most likely outcome for free. I'd consider those schools with a scholarship big enough you could reasonably service your debt at graduation with the job with your uncle.

As for leveraging the McGeorge offer, once your in at a school and they start sending you all the stuff about how you should really attend, email the admissions people saying you'd love to but that you've got a full ride from McGeorge and you can't really turn that down for sticker. How hard you want to push it is up to you. I'm not a expert at this but at similarly ranked schools with your stats I'd ask if they would match McGeorge's offer. With the T1's I'd ask them how much they'd be willing to give you. If you get some new $$$ offers you can meta-leverage that! Even if you'd truly crap out you should still use your acceptance at the better schools to get McGeorge to remove their stipulations. I'm sure more posters can give more advice on this, but it's not an exact science. You'll only get stuff if you try for it.

bayareahopeful
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:35 pm

Re: Another T2 full ride vs T1 $ or Full price question...

Postby bayareahopeful » Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:29 am

LeninLunchbox wrote:Hastings or Davis will absolutely open way more doors for you than McGeorge. In another insane break with TLS-think I'm going to say it's possible your experience there might be enough better that you get a better idea of what you want to do along with your better shot. The problem is that that better shot is only 50/50 at a real lawyer job and in terms of getting a job that services serious debt more like 1/5. So to my financial eye it's simply insane to take out six-figure debt for that shot especially when you can get your most likely outcome for free. I'd consider those schools with a scholarship big enough you could reasonably service your debt at graduation with the job with your uncle.

As for leveraging the McGeorge offer, once your in at a school and they start sending you all the stuff about how you should really attend, email the admissions people saying you'd love to but that you've got a full ride from McGeorge and you can't really turn that down for sticker. How hard you want to push it is up to you. I'm not a expert at this but at similarly ranked schools with your stats I'd ask if they would match McGeorge's offer. With the T1's I'd ask them how much they'd be willing to give you. If you get some new $$$ offers you can meta-leverage that! Even if you'd truly crap out you should still use your acceptance at the better schools to get McGeorge to remove their stipulations. I'm sure more posters can give more advice on this, but it's not an exact science. You'll only get stuff if you try for it.


I'm right there with you in terms of a financial decision. I just don't think I could bring myself to pay sticker when I have that full ride offer, and possibly more than just one when all is said and done.
I think you're spot on that you'll only get stuff if you try, like other people have said on this site, whats the worst that could happen? That they say no? But you have to ask because it's not like theyre going to offer you more money just because. I'll definitely take that advice and leverage them as much as I can. Maybe with numbers being down lately they'll budge a little bit.

bayareahopeful
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:35 pm

Re: Another T2 full ride vs T1 $ or Full price question...

Postby bayareahopeful » Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:30 am

thelawyler wrote:There are other ways to discover that than to pay 160k. Go with the full ride + uncle option.

I think you're right! Thanks!

User avatar
Rahviveh
Posts: 2271
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:02 pm

Re: Another T2 full ride vs T1 $ or Full price question...

Postby Rahviveh » Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:38 am

OP is this an actual full ride or is there a stipulation? McGeorge usually has a top third requirement. If there's no stipulations then I would go to McGeorge. Sacramento is a nice area to buy a house in too.

If you really want to explore fields other than your uncles law firm without spending a fortune, you'll have to retake again.

bayareahopeful
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:35 pm

Re: Another T2 full ride vs T1 $ or Full price question...

Postby bayareahopeful » Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:20 am

ChampagnePapi wrote:OP is this an actual full ride or is there a stipulation? McGeorge usually has a top third requirement. If there's no stipulations then I would go to McGeorge. Sacramento is a nice area to buy a house in too.

If you really want to explore fields other than your uncles law firm without spending a fortune, you'll have to retake again.


Hey Champagne, I meant to note that it was not a "full ride" because only the first year and the summer program are guaranteed. I wouldn't say that I'm not worried about the stipulations because I am a little apprehensive about them, but at the same time, its the best offer I have. I'm holding out a little hope that the stipulations might be negotiable depending on what other schools have to say, but at the same time I believe I have a good chance at keeping the scholarship for all three years. I'm not naive or arrogant about it, I just think that if worse came to worse and the stipulations stuck that I would do what I had to do to keep the scholarship. The information I have on scholarships at McGeorge is that around 45% keep them and 55% lose them, theres no data about who was a full ride, half ride, quarter ride, etc.. I'm aware that the top schools don't use stipulations for the most part, but the top schools aren't the ones offering me the full ride lol.

Regarding the retake, I think you're right, retaking just isn't an option for me at this time in my career/family life. Thanks again for your reply, Champagne.

User avatar
thelawyler
Posts: 902
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:00 pm

Re: Another T2 full ride vs T1 $ or Full price question...

Postby thelawyler » Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:09 am

bayareahopeful wrote:
ChampagnePapi wrote:OP is this an actual full ride or is there a stipulation? McGeorge usually has a top third requirement. If there's no stipulations then I would go to McGeorge. Sacramento is a nice area to buy a house in too.

If you really want to explore fields other than your uncles law firm without spending a fortune, you'll have to retake again.


Hey Champagne, I meant to note that it was not a "full ride" because only the first year and the summer program are guaranteed. I wouldn't say that I'm not worried about the stipulations because I am a little apprehensive about them, but at the same time, its the best offer I have. I'm holding out a little hope that the stipulations might be negotiable depending on what other schools have to say, but at the same time I believe I have a good chance at keeping the scholarship for all three years. I'm not naive or arrogant about it, I just think that if worse came to worse and the stipulations stuck that I would do what I had to do to keep the scholarship. The information I have on scholarships at McGeorge is that around 45% keep them and 55% lose them, theres no data about who was a full ride, half ride, quarter ride, etc.. I'm aware that the top schools don't use stipulations for the most part, but the top schools aren't the ones offering me the full ride lol.

Regarding the retake, I think you're right, retaking just isn't an option for me at this time in my career/family life. Thanks again for your reply, Champagne.


I know the retaking advice sucks, but I retook and renegotiated huge scholarships. Retaking and raising your score even a few point is THE BEST way to get money, as it both makes you a more attractive candidate and it shows to the school that you are serious in your threat to not matriculate. It's worth your time and money to do it. Even if you have only a 50% chance of upping your score 2-3 points with 50 extra hours of work/study, it is worth it. Think of it this way: if somebody offered you a 50% shot at $60,000 for 50 hours of work, would you take it? Of course you would, because that work has an Expected Value of $600 per hour. That's a fucking good hourly wage just for studying. And that's why you should retake. It's really a no brainer, especially because doing worse will not hurt you.

Annnnnd if there are stips on that scholarship, I wouldn't take it. Negotiate hard with them to make it go away.

bayareahopeful
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:35 pm

Re: Another T2 full ride vs T1 $ or Full price question...

Postby bayareahopeful » Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:40 am

thelawyler wrote:
I know the retaking advice sucks, but I retook and renegotiated huge scholarships. Retaking and raising your score even a few point is THE BEST way to get money, as it both makes you a more attractive candidate and it shows to the school that you are serious in your threat to not matriculate. It's worth your time and money to do it. Even if you have only a 50% chance of upping your score 2-3 points with 50 extra hours of work/study, it is worth it. Think of it this way: if somebody offered you a 50% shot at $60,000 for 50 hours of work, would you take it? Of course you would, because that work has an Expected Value of $600 per hour. That's a fucking good hourly wage just for studying. And that's why you should retake. It's really a no brainer, especially because doing worse will not hurt you.

Annnnnd if there are stips on that scholarship, I wouldn't take it. Negotiate hard with them to make it go away.
Last edited by bayareahopeful on Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
superpippo
Posts: 93
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:25 am

Re: Another T2 full ride vs T1 $ or Full price question...

Postby superpippo » Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:25 am

bayareahopeful wrote:To anyone reading this post I think we're just getting a little sidetracked with retaking, comparing stipulations, etc... I don't want to offend anyone but I'm really just looking for any information that I may have missed while talking to people who aren't in the law school application process, and people who are, so I came here for some advice from people who are familiar with the subject. It's going to be really hard for me to turn down a full ride from McGeorge, or the other two schools as well, even if I get a little money from Hastings or Davis. Again, thanks for all your responses and I look forward to hearing more opinions if they come.


I got offered that same deal at McGeorge and I think the key factor here is that the scholarship is clearly for the first year only. I think you need more information regarding stipulations and what kind of merit-based aid you would be getting for your second and third years. Maybe see if you could talk with admissions, explaining to them you are seriously considering it, but you want to know what would be coming your way 2l and 3l. Because if the stip is top-third and you're at median lets say, and they don't renew any sort of scholarship for the second and third years, then you just gave up the better opportunities at Davis/Hastings for 50k. For someone with a guaranteed job lined up, 50k extra is not that a huge sum long-term to warrant not going for greater opportunities, IMO.

I'd guess I'd look at this way. You have a job lined-up to mitigate debt-related issues if you never were to find a dream job at Hastings/Davis. Because the chances of finding such a job at Hastings/Davis would be higher than at McGeorge, and you have backup employment to hedge against any failure, the debt/opportunity ratio might be worth it in your case because the consequences of "failure" would be fairly low compared to the average 0L.

User avatar
Tiago Splitter
Posts: 15459
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:20 am

Re: Another T2 full ride vs T1 $ or Full price question...

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:08 pm

bayareahopeful wrote:It's going to be really hard for me to turn down a full ride from McGeorge, or the other two schools as well, even if I get a little money from Hastings or Davis. Again, thanks for all your responses and I look forward to hearing more opinions if they come.


You don't have a full ride to McGeorge. Also, sticker at Hastings/Davis will put you closer to 240K in debt than 140K unless you have substantial family assistance. Finally, you can re-take the LSAT in June (or February) with the intention of negotiating more scholarship money but still attending this fall.

bayareahopeful
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:35 pm

Re: Another T2 full ride vs T1 $ or Full price question...

Postby bayareahopeful » Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:08 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:You don't have a full ride to McGeorge. Also, sticker at Hastings/Davis will put you closer to 240K in debt than 140K unless you have substantial family assistance. Finally, you can re-take the LSAT in June (or February) with the intention of negotiating more scholarship money but still attending this fall.


Hey Splitter, thanks for the advice.

bayareahopeful
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:35 pm

Re: Another T2 full ride vs T1 $ or Full price question...

Postby bayareahopeful » Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:14 pm

superpippo wrote:I got offered that same deal at McGeorge and I think the key factor here is that the scholarship is clearly for the first year only. I think you need more information regarding stipulations and what kind of merit-based aid you would be getting for your second and third years. Maybe see if you could talk with admissions, explaining to them you are seriously considering it, but you want to know what would be coming your way 2l and 3l. Because if the stip is top-third and you're at median lets say, and they don't renew any sort of scholarship for the second and third years, then you just gave up the better opportunities at Davis/Hastings for 50k. For someone with a guaranteed job lined up, 50k extra is not that a huge sum long-term to warrant not going for greater opportunities, IMO.

I'd guess I'd look at this way. You have a job lined-up to mitigate debt-related issues if you never were to find a dream job at Hastings/Davis. Because the chances of finding such a job at Hastings/Davis would be higher than at McGeorge, and you have backup employment to hedge against any failure, the debt/opportunity ratio might be worth it in your case because the consequences of "failure" would be fairly low compared to the average 0L.


You're right the scholarship is only guaranteed for the first year. From my understanding what McGeorge does for 2L's and 3L's is gives out substantial aid if you're in the top 10% or so of your class. But that wouldn't really apply to me because of the stipulations being in the top 1/3 of the class to keep the scholarship. So if I miss out on my scholarship renewing, I'd definitely miss out on any of the other scholarships available to 2L's and 3L's.

That makes sense what you're saying about having a back up plan if I didn't land a "dream job". Definitely something to think about!

Since we've been in similar situations, what did you end up doing in choosing a law school? Thanks for the reply!

User avatar
superpippo
Posts: 93
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:25 am

Re: Another T2 full ride vs T1 $ or Full price question...

Postby superpippo » Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:54 pm

bayareahopeful wrote:You're right the scholarship is only guaranteed for the first year. From my understanding what McGeorge does for 2L's and 3L's is gives out substantial aid if you're in the top 10% or so of your class. But that wouldn't really apply to me because of the stipulations being in the top 1/3 of the class to keep the scholarship. So if I miss out on my scholarship renewing, I'd definitely miss out on any of the other scholarships available to 2L's and 3L's.

That makes sense what you're saying about having a back up plan if I didn't land a "dream job". Definitely something to think about!

Since we've been in similar situations, what did you end up doing in choosing a law school? Thanks for the reply!


Well I'm planning on attending Hastings, however I have slightly above median stats so I'm hoping to get some $ (hopefully). I may have a potential job after college due to UG networking at a smaller firm, but regardless of that, for me, the McGeorge scholarship was nowhere near enticing enough for me to forgo the opportunities I would receive at Hastings (not saying they are amazing right now, just better than at McGeorge). If I were you, and you still wanted to go to school on scholarship, I would really try to negotiate with Santa Clara/USF (I think SC would give you better opportunities at least in Silicon Valley) and use the this scholarship offer to get a 3-year scholarship offer at one of these schools. You should have above 75% stats at both universities so I would just apply and wait for the financial aid offers; then maybe re-negotiate to see if you can get a better deal.

Because for you, someone who is interested in going to school without debt, I don't think the McGeorge offer should sway you because top-third is always a risky proposition. Hopefully, SC/USF will give you more substantial offers for all three years. If not, If I were in your position, I would go with Hastings/Davis.

User avatar
cahwc12
Posts: 941
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:49 pm

Re: Another T2 full ride vs T1 $ or Full price question...

Postby cahwc12 » Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:39 pm

OP, I think if you changed your poll to offer a third option and revoting, you would see 0 votes for the two options you list, and 100% of votes for "none of the above."

As others have said, the McGeorge offer is not a full ride but is meant to look like one. IF (big if) you can get the stipulations removed or greatly relaxed, I would go there. If not, I don't think any of your current options is a viable path to success. If you can get a hard offer to your uncle and make him understand that if he doesn't offer you a job, you've got a 60% chance to be ruining your life, then maybe, MAYBE would Hastings/Davis/etc be worth attending at the aid package you're likely to receive.

As noted above, COA is MUCH higher than merely tuition, which is outrageous at sticker. Also as noted, if you can leverage that McGeorge offer or other offers to get full rides at USF/SC, but without the ridiculous top 1/3 stips, then either of those would potentially be viable as well.

Again, to reiterate, based on the information you've currently provided, I think exactly none of the options you present are worth serious consideration. If these schools don't up their offers, you should not attend, period.

User avatar
Mick Haller
Posts: 1258
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 3:24 pm

Re: Another question

Postby Mick Haller » Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:48 pm

odds of "Dream job" out of Hastings? Like 10-15%?




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: carlos_danger and 4 guests