AllTheLawz wrote: XxSpyKEx wrote:
IAFG wrote:XxSpyKEx is looking at the outlier year 2011. All the information I am hearing out of HLS suggests that 2011 was worse than more recent cycles. And even then, it was a pretty safe bet.
I know people who went to HLS (and SLS), who obviously did well enough to land a good fed clerkship (but did not have offers out of 2L OCI), but still struggled a lot with finding legal employment. They certainly don't think their law school was a "safe bet." Obviously, 2011 was the worst year, and things have picked up a lot since then, but even then, biglaw hiring isn't what it was 5 years ago, which makes things less of a sure thing at any law school (except, perhaps, YLS).
54.4% of Harvard grads work in private practice and 48.7% of them got Biglaw. The 25th-75th percentile in salaries is 160k with a 155k average (99% of salaries reporting). That means that around 90% of those at H who went for private practice got biglaw. I'm assuming that the other 21.1% who got clerkships (16.3% Federal) wanted them. The 30.7% of Harvard grads in public interest / government probably wanted to be in that area. NOT EVERYONE WANTS BIGLAW. I don't think a lot of them are "settling" for these jobs because they couldn't find something they liked. There are also 5% in Business, people seeking other degrees and academia, etc.
Compare those numbers to the c/o 2009- 65% at firms, and about half the number in government/PI. Certainly some people who are "settling."
This. I think it's a bit naive to assume that the people who went into PI or business went there because that's what they wanted. That's not much different than arguing that 99.9% of people who attended Cooley didn't want biglaw and they were not settling (pretty sure Cooley's shady office of admission would probably even tell you that).
I think the number of people who attend HYS, wanting PI is typically pretty low (around 10% or less). Unfortunately, federal government has a tendency to fall into the PI category, which a lot of people want (federal government is usually more competitive than biglaw). But I highly doubt 20.7% of HLS's c/o 2011 went into federal government.
It is not the same at all, actually. You would be shocked at what people do around HLS. First, the number of people who attend HYS wanting PI is far in excess of 10% (though the percentage of those who actually immediately do it is low). You also have to realize that a lot of people here have family support that allow them to take paths much riskier than biglaw. In addition, a lot of people have former consulting/Investment Banking/Hedge Fund experience that open up uncommon paths like going directly in-house or joining up with wealthy friends and doing their own thing. It isn't just JD/MBAs that take business jobs. A fair number of HLS people decide to do random crap like: join hedge funds, go immediately in-house, start their own PI orgs, do sherpa rights work overseas, go to med school, etc. Even within law firm choices HYS isnt as simple as biglaw being the number one option. There are a fair number of $110k+ paying non-biglaw firms that HLS students voluntarily choose.
I have to say from experience that TLS is a little too pessimistic when it comes to prospects at HYS (mostly HS, obviously).
Lol. "Business" = Starbucks. Not in every case, but it's not unreasonable to assume that in most cases when deciding whether to attend law school. HLS has a really large class size (and not the greatest grading system (i.e. the required LPs)), and as a result, there is a large number of people who get screwed.
Ti Malice wrote:
XxSpyKEx wrote:I think it's a bit naive to assume that the people who went into PI or business went there because that's what they wanted.
Why? You're irrationally wedded to a belief that BigLaw is the end goal for the vast majority of people at these schools.
The belief mostly relates to HLS because of the large number of people who either did biglaw or federal clerkships prior to the recession. It's not like a ton of people from the c/o 2011 magically decided that they simply didn't want biglaw when the prior classes did.
Ti Malice wrote:
That's not much different than arguing that 99.9% of people who attended Cooley didn't want biglaw and they were not settling (pretty sure Cooley's shady office of admission would probably even tell you that).
Do I even have to say why this comment is abject nonsense?
It's not the exact same thing, but it is the same line of reasoning you're using (i.e. most of the people who didn't get biglaw that year must just not have wanted it).
Ti Malice wrote:
I think the number of people who attend HYS, wanting PI is typically pretty low (around 10% or less).
You think this based on what? Your uninformed intuition? Your negligible anecdotal experience?
I can assure you that the proportion of people at YLS who have no interest interest in BigLaw whatsoever vastly exceeds 10% (and I'm not just talking about 1Ls); it's definitely well above 10% at SLS and HLS, too. AlltheLawz and IAFG lay out the reasons why, in greater or lesser detail.
Sorry, that was a typo. I meant HLS. YLS and SLS have always had lower biglaw numbers (especially YLS). I have no idea where nebula666 came up with that 30.7% PI figure. I just took a look, and even in 2011, it was 9.1% in PI: http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school= ... =employers
. In the c/o 2010, it was 7.1%: http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school= ... class=2010
. I'm pretty sure, when you exclude federal government (which a ton of people want at t14s), that the HLS's class interest in PI has never been much over 10%. Also, if you simply look at the data for previous HLS classes prior to 2011, it's pretty clear that the number of people who went into large law firms or federal clerkships was substantially larger. It's pretty inaccurate to argue that all of those people simply did not want biglaw or federal clerkships in the c/o 2011.
Obviously, things have picked up since the c/o 2011 did OCI (in the fall of 2008), but it's still no where near where things were in 2006-2007, and I still think it's pretty far fetched to assume that H or S is a magical unicorn that will get you biglaw if you want it. If you're going to attend law school, they are both better options than 197 some odd law schools, but I still think it's far from sure thing or a "safe bet." I mean there's still at least a 1 in 4 (25%) chance that you won't get biglaw, federal government, or a federal clerkship (like I noted in my earlier post, it was closer to 1 in 3 (33%) in c/o 2011). And I don't think "business" (or state or local clerkships) is a good outcome for an HLS student. Until there's exact data showing otherwise, I'm assuming that means starbucks or its equivalent.