something a practicing big law lawyer told me: is this BS? Forum

[AllTheLawz]

XxSpyKEx is looking at the outlier year 2011. All the information I am hearing out of HLS suggests that 2011 was worse than more recent cycles. And even then, it was a pretty safe bet.

I know people who went to HLS (and SLS), who obviously did well enough to land a good fed clerkship (but did not have offers out of 2L OCI), but still struggled a lot with finding legal employment. They certainly don't think their law school was a "safe bet." Obviously, 2011 was the worst year, and things have picked up a lot since then, but even then, biglaw hiring isn't what it was 5 years ago, which makes things less of a sure thing at any law school (except, perhaps, YLS).

54.4% of Harvard grads work in private practice and 48.7% of them got Biglaw. The 25th-75th percentile in salaries is 160k with a 155k average (99% of salaries reporting). That means that around 90% of those at H who went for private practice got biglaw. I'm assuming that the other 21.1% who got clerkships (16.3% Federal) wanted them. The 30.7% of Harvard grads in public interest / government probably wanted to be in that area. NOT EVERYONE WANTS BIGLAW. I don't think a lot of them are "settling" for these jobs because they couldn't find something they liked. There are also 5% in Business, people seeking other degrees and academia, etc.

Compare those numbers to the c/o 2009- 65% at firms, and about half the number in government/PI. Certainly some people who are "settling."

This. I think it's a bit naive to assume that the people who went into PI or business went there because that's what they wanted. That's not much different than arguing that 99.9% of people who attended Cooley didn't want biglaw and they were not settling (pretty sure Cooley's shady office of admission would probably even tell you that). I think the number of people who attend HYS, wanting PI is typically pretty low (around 10% or less). Unfortunately, federal government has a tendency to fall into the PI category, which a lot of people want (federal government is usually more competitive than biglaw). But I highly doubt 20.7% of HLS's c/o 2011 went into federal government.

It is not the same at all, actually. You would be shocked at what people do around HLS. First, the number of people who attend HYS wanting PI is far in excess of 10% (though the percentage of those who actually immediately do it is low). You also have to realize that a lot of people here have family support that allow them to take paths much riskier than biglaw. In addition, a lot of people have former consulting/Investment Banking/Hedge Fund experience that open up uncommon paths like going directly in-house or joining up with wealthy friends and doing their own thing. It isn't just JD/MBAs that take business jobs. A fair number of HLS people decide to do random crap like: join hedge funds, go immediately in-house, start their own PI orgs, do sherpa rights work overseas, go to med school, etc. Even within law firm choices HYS isnt as simple as biglaw being the number one option. There are a fair number of $110k+ paying non-biglaw firms that HLS students voluntarily choose.

I have to say from experience that TLS is a little too pessimistic when it comes to prospects at HYS (mostly HS, obviously).

[Ti Malice]

I think it's a bit naive to assume that the people who went into PI or business went there because that's what they wanted.

Why? You're irrationally wedded to a belief that BigLaw is the end goal for the vast majority of people at these schools. It's not.

That's not much different than arguing that 99.9% of people who attended Cooley didn't want biglaw and they were not settling (pretty sure Cooley's shady office of admission would probably even tell you that).

Do I even have to say why this comment is abject nonsense? Res ipsa loquitur.

I think the number of people who attend HYS, wanting PI is typically pretty low (around 10% or less).

You think this based on what? Your uninformed intuition? Your negligible anecdotal experience?

I can assure you that the proportion of people at YLS who have no interest interest in BigLaw whatsoever vastly exceeds 10% (and I'm not just talking about 1Ls); it's definitely well above 10% at SLS and HLS, too. AlltheLawz and IAFG lay out the reasons why, in greater or lesser detail.

[XxSpyKEx]

XxSpyKEx is looking at the outlier year 2011. All the information I am hearing out of HLS suggests that 2011 was worse than more recent cycles. And even then, it was a pretty safe bet.

I know people who went to HLS (and SLS), who obviously did well enough to land a good fed clerkship (but did not have offers out of 2L OCI), but still struggled a lot with finding legal employment. They certainly don't think their law school was a "safe bet." Obviously, 2011 was the worst year, and things have picked up a lot since then, but even then, biglaw hiring isn't what it was 5 years ago, which makes things less of a sure thing at any law school (except, perhaps, YLS).

54.4% of Harvard grads work in private practice and 48.7% of them got Biglaw. The 25th-75th percentile in salaries is 160k with a 155k average (99% of salaries reporting). That means that around 90% of those at H who went for private practice got biglaw. I'm assuming that the other 21.1% who got clerkships (16.3% Federal) wanted them. The 30.7% of Harvard grads in public interest / government probably wanted to be in that area. NOT EVERYONE WANTS BIGLAW. I don't think a lot of them are "settling" for these jobs because they couldn't find something they liked. There are also 5% in Business, people seeking other degrees and academia, etc.

Compare those numbers to the c/o 2009- 65% at firms, and about half the number in government/PI. Certainly some people who are "settling."

This. I think it's a bit naive to assume that the people who went into PI or business went there because that's what they wanted. That's not much different than arguing that 99.9% of people who attended Cooley didn't want biglaw and they were not settling (pretty sure Cooley's shady office of admission would probably even tell you that). I think the number of people who attend HYS, wanting PI is typically pretty low (around 10% or less). Unfortunately, federal government has a tendency to fall into the PI category, which a lot of people want (federal government is usually more competitive than biglaw). But I highly doubt 20.7% of HLS's c/o 2011 went into federal government.

It is not the same at all, actually. You would be shocked at what people do around HLS. First, the number of people who attend HYS wanting PI is far in excess of 10% (though the percentage of those who actually immediately do it is low). You also have to realize that a lot of people here have family support that allow them to take paths much riskier than biglaw. In addition, a lot of people have former consulting/Investment Banking/Hedge Fund experience that open up uncommon paths like going directly in-house or joining up with wealthy friends and doing their own thing. It isn't just JD/MBAs that take business jobs. A fair number of HLS people decide to do random crap like: join hedge funds, go immediately in-house, start their own PI orgs, do sherpa rights work overseas, go to med school, etc. Even within law firm choices HYS isnt as simple as biglaw being the number one option. There are a fair number of $110k+ paying non-biglaw firms that HLS students voluntarily choose.

I have to say from experience that TLS is a little too pessimistic when it comes to prospects at HYS (mostly HS, obviously).

Lol. "Business" = Starbucks. Not in every case, but it's not unreasonable to assume that in most cases when deciding whether to attend law school. HLS has a really large class size (and not the greatest grading system (i.e. the required LPs)), and as a result, there is a large number of people who get screwed.

I think it's a bit naive to assume that the people who went into PI or business went there because that's what they wanted.

Why? You're irrationally wedded to a belief that BigLaw is the end goal for the vast majority of people at these schools.

The belief mostly relates to HLS because of the large number of people who either did biglaw or federal clerkships prior to the recession. It's not like a ton of people from the c/o 2011 magically decided that they simply didn't want biglaw when the prior classes did.

That's not much different than arguing that 99.9% of people who attended Cooley didn't want biglaw and they were not settling (pretty sure Cooley's shady office of admission would probably even tell you that).

Do I even have to say why this comment is abject nonsense?

It's not the exact same thing, but it is the same line of reasoning you're using (i.e. most of the people who didn't get biglaw that year must just not have wanted it).

I think the number of people who attend HYS, wanting PI is typically pretty low (around 10% or less).

You think this based on what? Your uninformed intuition? Your negligible anecdotal experience?

I can assure you that the proportion of people at YLS who have no interest interest in BigLaw whatsoever vastly exceeds 10% (and I'm not just talking about 1Ls); it's definitely well above 10% at SLS and HLS, too. AlltheLawz and IAFG lay out the reasons why, in greater or lesser detail.

Sorry, that was a typo. I meant HLS. YLS and SLS have always had lower biglaw numbers (especially YLS). I have no idea where nebula666 came up with that 30.7% PI figure. I just took a look, and even in 2011, it was 9.1% in PI: http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school= ... =employers . In the c/o 2010, it was 7.1%: http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school= ... class=2010 . I'm pretty sure, when you exclude federal government (which a ton of people want at t14s), that the HLS's class interest in PI has never been much over 10%. Also, if you simply look at the data for previous HLS classes prior to 2011, it's pretty clear that the number of people who went into large law firms or federal clerkships was substantially larger. It's pretty inaccurate to argue that all of those people simply did not want biglaw or federal clerkships in the c/o 2011.

Obviously, things have picked up since the c/o 2011 did OCI (in the fall of 2008), but it's still no where near where things were in 2006-2007, and I still think it's pretty far fetched to assume that H or S is a magical unicorn that will get you biglaw if you want it. If you're going to attend law school, they are both better options than 197 some odd law schools, but I still think it's far from sure thing or a "safe bet." I mean there's still at least a 1 in 4 (25%) chance that you won't get biglaw, federal government, or a federal clerkship (like I noted in my earlier post, it was closer to 1 in 3 (33%) in c/o 2011). And I don't think "business" (or state or local clerkships) is a good outcome for an HLS student. Until there's exact data showing otherwise, I'm assuming that means starbucks or its equivalent.

[IAFG]

a lot of people who want PI do a clerkship or fellowship first.

[XxSpyKEx]

a lot of people who want PI do a clerkship or fellowship first.

A fellowship falls into the PI category on LST ?... With my numbers, I assumed that the people who got federal clerkships could've/will gotten/get biglaw, so they were already excluded from the screwed pile (i.e. the 1 out of 4 (prediction) and 1 out of 3 (c/o 2011)).

[IAFG]

a lot of people who want PI do a clerkship or fellowship first.

A fellowship falls into the PI category on LST ?... With my numbers, I assumed that the people who got federal clerkships could've/will gotten/get biglaw, so they were already excluded from the screwed pile (i.e. the 1 out of 4 (prediction) and 1 out of 3 (c/o 2011)).

if they clerk, they're not in the 10% or whatever in the PI pile.

[XxSpyKEx]

a lot of people who want PI do a clerkship or fellowship first.

A fellowship falls into the PI category on LST ?... With my numbers, I assumed that the people who got federal clerkships could've/will gotten/get biglaw, so they were already excluded from the screwed pile (i.e. the 1 out of 4 (prediction) and 1 out of 3 (c/o 2011)).

if they clerk, they're not in the 10% or whatever in the PI pile.

I know

[dingbat]

Lol. "Business" = Starbucks. Not in every case, but it's not unreasonable to assume that in most cases when deciding whether to attend law school.

This is probably true when you're talking about a school like NYLS, but it is unreasonable to assume that to be the case when you're talking Harvard. Consulting companies will gladly snap an HLS grad, as will investment banks. If I'm not mistaken, the top consulting firms actively participate in Harvard's EIP. I also know people who went to law school and went into various businesses on a management track.
In the same vein I've known someone whose JD preferred job was as a consular officer advising people on nationality laws and regulations, which generally meant a 40 hour work week at a good salary.

[IAFG]

Lol. "Business" = Starbucks. Not in every case, but it's not unreasonable to assume that in most cases when deciding whether to attend law school.

This is probably true when you're talking about a school like NYLS, but it is unreasonable to assume that to be the case when you're talking Harvard. Consulting companies will gladly snap an HLS grad, as will investment banks. If I'm not mistaken, the top consulting firms actively participate in Harvard's EIP. I also know people who went to law school and went into various businesses on a management track.
In the same vein I've known someone whose JD preferred job was as a consular officer advising people on nationality laws and regulations, which generally meant a 40 hour work week at a good salary.

NU has a lot of JD-MBAs, many of whom don't do law and you can bet they're not Baristaing either.

[dingbat]

^there are also a large number of lawyers working in financial services, and I'm sure most of them chose to do that

[XxSpyKEx]

Lol. "Business" = Starbucks. Not in every case, but it's not unreasonable to assume that in most cases when deciding whether to attend law school.

This is probably true when you're talking about a school like NYLS, but it is unreasonable to assume that to be the case when you're talking Harvard. Consulting companies will gladly snap an HLS grad, as will investment banks. If I'm not mistaken, the top consulting firms actively participate in Harvard's EIP. I also know people who went to law school and went into various businesses on a management track.

It doesn't seem like I-banks recruit many law school grads. It suppose it's possible for a JD/MBA though. The two people from my class that went into I-banking after graduation were people who were in I-banking prior to law school. Both of them saw law school as a losing investment because they ended up in the same position that they were in prior to law school. I also have a friend who went to law school part time while working in investment banking. I haven't heard of anyone going to law school, without any kind of finance/business background, that got into I-banking solely as a result of attending law school. As a practical matter, I-banking is a pretty different skill set than the skills you allegedly acquire as a law student (i.e. it's a lot of finance and math, and not about doing things like writing briefs).

Consulting firms--specifically McKinsey--do hire a few law school grads each year (and typically they hire TOP law school grads, such as HYS grads). I doubt many people waste three years of their lives for the purpose of going into a business consulting firm though. Why not just get an MBA instead, if that's your end goal? More realistically, I believe a lot of the people who go into consulting because it pays well and they didn't get the thing they went to law school to do (e.g. biglaw).

[dingbat]

More realistically, I believe a lot of the people who go into consulting because it pays well and they didn't get the thing they went to law school to do (e.g. biglaw).

Or they realized they don't like law?

[IAFG]

More realistically, I believe a lot of the people who go into consulting because it pays well and they didn't get the thing they went to law school to do (e.g. biglaw).

Or they realized they don't like law?

This, but also it's MUCH easier to get into a top law program than a top business program.

[AllTheLawz]

More realistically, I believe a lot of the people who go into consulting because it pays well and they didn't get the thing they went to law school to do (e.g. biglaw).

Or they realized they don't like law?

Yeah this was a MAJOR indicator that he has no clue what he is talking about. People getting those consulting jobs at HYS are usually the types choosing between MBB or Cravath/Skadden/SullCrom. Also a dead giveaway when he parroted the whole large class and mandatory LP line (which actually isn't even accurate).

But whatever.. I see no harm in him thinking with such authority that 20% of HLS is working at Starbucks.

[dingbat]

More realistically, I believe a lot of the people who go into consulting because it pays well and they didn't get the thing they went to law school to do (e.g. biglaw).

Or they realized they don't like law?

Yeah this was a MAJOR indicator that he has no clue what he is talking about. People getting those consulting jobs at HYS are usually the types choosing between MBB or Cravath/Skadden/SullCrom. Also a dead giveaway when he parroted the whole large class and mandatory LP line (which actually isn't even accurate).

But whatever.. I see no harm in him thinking with such authority that 20% of HLS is working at Starbucks.

not really. If he were trying to convince others, I might have a problem with it, but I doubt many people would believe him

[09042014]

More realistically, I believe a lot of the people who go into consulting because it pays well and they didn't get the thing they went to law school to do (e.g. biglaw).

Or they realized they don't like law?

This, but also it's MUCH easier to get into a top law program than a top business program.

Different not necessarily easier. They require a good resume, but their average gmat percentiles are lower than law school's average LSAT percentiles. And the range is much wider.

There are people who get into Warton, who probably wouldn't crack T14. But most t14 grads couldn't get into Warton.

[IAFG]

More realistically, I believe a lot of the people who go into consulting because it pays well and they didn't get the thing they went to law school to do (e.g. biglaw).

Or they realized they don't like law?

Yeah this was a MAJOR indicator that he has no clue what he is talking about. People getting those consulting jobs at HYS are usually the types choosing between MBB or Cravath/Skadden/SullCrom. Also a dead giveaway when he parroted the whole large class and mandatory LP line (which actually isn't even accurate).

But whatever.. I see no harm in him thinking with such authority that 20% of HLS is working at Starbucks.

LPs were mandatory for class of 2011, which is the data everyone relies on.

[XxSpyKEx]

People getting those consulting jobs at HYS are usually the types choosing between MBB or Cravath/Skadden/SullCrom.

Possibly, but probably not. Cravath/Skadden/SullCrom are focused on grades; MBB are not.

But whatever.. I see no harm in him thinking with such authority that 20% of HLS is working at Starbucks.

I never said 20%. My estimate was closer to 15% (i.e. the 11% that were counted as unemployed or underemployed + most of the 5% in "business"). I don't think our estimates are that far apart, seeing that the "business" percentage is quite small to begin with, unless you're arguing that "underemployment" or "unemployment" also means I-banking or consulting. However, I did say that around 1 out of 3 2011 HLS grads could not have gotten biglaw (the "screwed" crowd), which I still believe is true-- I don't buy this notion that suddenly in the class of 2011 a ton of HLS grads decided that they did not want biglaw or federal clerkships, even though a substantially larger portion of the prior HLS classes did.

[09042014]

IIRC wasn't the number HLS threw around after 2011's OCI something like 80% got an offer at LOLCI?

[Tiago Splitter]

I did say that around 1 out of 3 2011 HLS grads could not have gotten biglaw (the "screwed" crowd), which I still believe is true-- I don't buy this notion that suddenly in the class of 2011 a ton of HLS grads decided that they did not want biglaw or federal clerkships, even though a substantially larger portion of the prior HLS classes did.

So you believe that 20-25% of Harvard students could not get Biglaw during the best of times in 2007-2008?

[AllTheLawz]

People getting those consulting jobs at HYS are usually the types choosing between MBB or Cravath/Skadden/SullCrom.

Possibly, but probably not. Cravath/Skadden/SullCrom are focused on grades; MBB are not.

But whatever.. I see no harm in him thinking with such authority that 20% of HLS is working at Starbucks.

I never said 20%. My estimate was closer to 15% (i.e. the 11% that were counted as unemployed or underemployed + most of the 5% in "business"). I don't think our estimates are that far apart, seeing that the "business" percentage is quite small to begin with, unless you're arguing that "underemployment" or "unemployment" also means I-banking or consulting. However, I did say that around 1 out of 3 2011 HLS grads could not have gotten biglaw (the "screwed" crowd), which I still believe is true-- I don't buy this notion that suddenly in the class of 2011 a ton of HLS grads decided that they did not want biglaw or federal clerkships, even though a substantially larger portion of the prior HLS classes did.

Dude what are you not understanding.. I go to HLS, just went through EIP and know the people who took MBB offers (there are only a few in each class). I am not guessing, I know for a fact. I am also close to or within the bottom 1/3 of the class and had multiple biglaw SA offers (accepting one from a firm ranked between V10-V30).

[suralin]

People getting those consulting jobs at HYS are usually the types choosing between MBB or Cravath/Skadden/SullCrom.

Possibly, but probably not. Cravath/Skadden/SullCrom are focused on grades; MBB are not.

But whatever.. I see no harm in him thinking with such authority that 20% of HLS is working at Starbucks.

I never said 20%. My estimate was closer to 15% (i.e. the 11% that were counted as unemployed or underemployed + most of the 5% in "business"). I don't think our estimates are that far apart, seeing that the "business" percentage is quite small to begin with, unless you're arguing that "underemployment" or "unemployment" also means I-banking or consulting. However, I did say that around 1 out of 3 2011 HLS grads could not have gotten biglaw (the "screwed" crowd), which I still believe is true-- I don't buy this notion that suddenly in the class of 2011 a ton of HLS grads decided that they did not want biglaw or federal clerkships, even though a substantially larger portion of the prior HLS classes did.

Dude what are you not understanding.. I go to HLS, just went through EIP and know the people who took MBB offers (there are only a few in each class). I am not guessing, I know for a fact. I am also close to or within the bottom 1/3 of the class and had multiple biglaw SA offers (accepting one from a firm ranked between V10-V30).

ITT: non-HLS student arguing with HLS students about how HLS students do w/r/t biglaw.

[Blessedassurance]

HYS almost guarantees Biglaw. You need a shitload of things to work against you to strike out, and even then, most people land on their feet. Not only that, it guarantees you have at shot at places you don't even have ties to, if you can come up with a believable reason. The theory holds true irrespective of grades.

There are various reasons for people to avoid NY Biglaw. In fact, the question should be why anyone with credible options would want to do NY Biglaw.

[IAFG]

HYS almost guarantees Biglaw. You need a shitload of things to work against you to strike out, and even then, most people land on their feet. Not only that, it guarantees you have at shot at places you don't even have ties to, if you can come up with a believable reason. The theory holds true irrespective of grades.

There are various reasons for people to avoid NY Biglaw. In fact, the question should be why anyone with credible options would want to do NY Biglaw.

In fact, the metric we rely on so heavily, the NLJ250, leaves out some of the best boutiques, which are of course harder to land a job at than the V5.

[Blessedassurance]

Interesting. Never thought of it this way.

If you pay full-freight and end up in NY, You're going to take 4-5 years of aggressively paying off debt just to make a significant dent in your debt, while living with roommates in Manhattan or commuting from Jersey. Even at a debt of say $100,000, New York requires sacrifices you wouldn't have to make elsewhere. Cost of Living-wise, ~80 grand in a place like Dallas or Houston is approximately over 300 grand in Manhattan. Lasting long enough in Manhattan is also a pretty dicey proposition, relatively.

At certain schools, you need to bet on NY Biglaw, or Chicago etc., as such, the school's placement is tied to the fortunes of its primary market. H places everywhere (including internationally). There are a lot of people who actively hate New York and would consider Law School a bad gamble if they have to do NY Biglaw. It's possible to get the jobs people on these boards consider mythical coming out of hys.

There are people who also had very fulfilling careers before Law School and would consider Biglaw in general to be a step in the wrong direction...like going backwards.

If you're considering hys, just talk to students (skip the stuff admissions feed you etc). Just talk to as many students as possible to get a general sense of what really goes on and make an informed decision. I mean I'm against Law School in general but the general hatred against H in particular on these boards is truly amusing.