UVA $$ V. Penn $

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
jstr00az
Posts: 86
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:36 am

Re: UVA $$ V. Penn $

Postby jstr00az » Sat Dec 22, 2012 3:03 pm

I went to Penn undergrad and UVA for grad school. I prefer Philly to Charlottesville, but C-ville is not bad at all, and well worth not having an additional $60k in debt.

dissonance1848
Posts: 706
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2010 4:42 pm

Re: UVA $$ V. Penn $

Postby dissonance1848 » Sat Dec 22, 2012 3:27 pm

I find it amusing that people are wondering why Penn is being considered a peer of CCN and not MVB. Gee, maybe it has to do with data, like the NLJ250? Penn was right there with CLS, Chicago, and Northwestern at the top of the NLJ250 during the boom. When ITE came, it performed about as well as CLS, Chicago and Northwestern. Penn is definitely not a peer of Michigan or Virginia. That being said, it is also crazy to say Northwestern is a peer of Duke and Cornell. Penn and Northwestern outperform their "prestige" ranks by a quite a bit.

Not saying that OP should not take UVA with 135k. But I do find it ridiculous why people are questioning the higher regard people now have for Penn. Also, check out Raiyner's posts on Penn placement, since he's the placement & employment guru here. He's said basically the same thing.

User avatar
FlightoftheEarls
Posts: 857
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 5:50 pm

Re: UVA $$ V. Penn $

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Sat Dec 22, 2012 8:10 pm

dissonance1848 wrote:I find it amusing that people are wondering why Penn is being considered a peer of CCN and not MVB. Gee, maybe it has to do with data, like the NLJ250? Penn was right there with CLS, Chicago, and Northwestern at the top of the NLJ250 during the boom. When ITE came, it performed about as well as CLS, Chicago and Northwestern. Penn is definitely not a peer of Michigan or Virginia. That being said, it is also crazy to say Northwestern is a peer of Duke and Cornell. Penn and Northwestern outperform their "prestige" ranks by a quite a bit.

Not saying that OP should not take UVA with 135k. But I do find it ridiculous why people are questioning the higher regard people now have for Penn. Also, check out Raiyner's posts on Penn placement, since he's the placement & employment guru here. He's said basically the same thing.

NLJ may be a good way to determine placement, but it is a pretty terrible way to determine placement ability. The only thing that matters is how deep into a law school class a firm will go, and none of that data for Penn suggests that it has any distinct advantage over MVPDN.

Here's a thread that lays out I'm talking about: http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=196358&start=25

User avatar
BruceWayne
Posts: 2032
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:36 pm

Re: UVA $$ V. Penn $

Postby BruceWayne » Sat Dec 22, 2012 8:27 pm

FlightoftheEarls wrote:NLJ may be a good way to determine placement, but it is a pretty terrible way to determine placement ability. The only thing that matters is how deep into a law school class a firm will go, and none of that data for Penn suggests that it has any distinct advantage over MVPDN.

Here's a thread that lays out I'm talking about: http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 8&start=25


It's amazing how many people who haven't gone to law school don't understand this.

gunner3
Posts: 40
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:58 pm

Re: UVA $$ V. Penn $

Postby gunner3 » Sat Dec 22, 2012 8:36 pm

Go where you'll be most happy. A lifetime of regretting not going to the school you wanted to attend makes 60k seem small.

User avatar
smaug_
Posts: 2195
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:06 pm

Re: UVA $$ V. Penn $

Postby smaug_ » Sat Dec 22, 2012 8:37 pm

gunner3 wrote:Go where you'll be most happy. A lifetime of regretting not going to the school you wanted to attend makes 60k seem small.

:roll:

60k buys a fair amount of happiness.

dissonance1848
Posts: 706
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2010 4:42 pm

Re: UVA $$ V. Penn $

Postby dissonance1848 » Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:18 pm

The question of placement ability versus general placement is another question entirely. Since the typical student should expect median, and median aint getting you a top flight firm job out any schools save for HYS, its not relevant.

Look, yes, CCN does have better placement at elite firms than Penn, but the marginal difference there is not worth overlooking general placement. During the boom one could make the case that elite firm placement mattered more, because 1) everyone got jobs and 2) even between NYU and Penn the difference in elite placement was at least 5% of the class.

And the above becomes stronger when one evaluates Penn's peer schools. Even during the boom, Penn placed much better than UVA and Michigan. Sure, self-selection did have some effect, but it still doesn't cancel out the large differences in placement. Now, the placement differences are about the same, but given the legal climate, more important.

User avatar
BruceWayne
Posts: 2032
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:36 pm

Re: UVA $$ V. Penn $

Postby BruceWayne » Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:20 pm

Keep in mind, OP, that it's 60 + interest. That's a TON of money.

User avatar
BarbellDreams
Posts: 2256
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:10 pm

Re: UVA $$ V. Penn $

Postby BarbellDreams » Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:25 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
FlightoftheEarls wrote:NLJ may be a good way to determine placement, but it is a pretty terrible way to determine placement ability. The only thing that matters is how deep into a law school class a firm will go, and none of that data for Penn suggests that it has any distinct advantage over MVPDN.

Here's a thread that lays out I'm talking about: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=196358&start=25


It's amazing how many people who haven't gone to law school don't understand this.


Dear God, this!

User avatar
Br3v
Posts: 4174
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:18 pm

Re: UVA $$ V. Penn $

Postby Br3v » Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:06 am

NoodleyOne wrote:
WhirledWorld wrote:I go to Penn, and I cannot believe how many people are insisting Penn is worth 60k more than UVA. It's not, not even if you want NYC biglaw.

First, ask Penn to raise their scholarship, and take the UVA offer to any of the T6 you get into. But if that doesn't change anything, go to UVA unless you cannot stand Charlottesville. Enjoy not having to pay off $60,000 in debt.

This. I don't know what happened recently with Penn that makes people think it's just shy of HYS. It's a great school, but it's still definitely peer with UVA.


Been wondering where this sentiment came from too.

SportsFan
Posts: 722
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:26 pm

Re: UVA $$ V. Penn $

Postby SportsFan » Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:32 am

Br3v wrote:
NoodleyOne wrote:
WhirledWorld wrote:I go to Penn, and I cannot believe how many people are insisting Penn is worth 60k more than UVA. It's not, not even if you want NYC biglaw.

First, ask Penn to raise their scholarship, and take the UVA offer to any of the T6 you get into. But if that doesn't change anything, go to UVA unless you cannot stand Charlottesville. Enjoy not having to pay off $60,000 in debt.

This. I don't know what happened recently with Penn that makes people think it's just shy of HYS. It's a great school, but it's still definitely peer with UVA.


Been wondering where this sentiment came from too.

Image

Thats the short answer.

User avatar
Cobretti
Posts: 2560
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:45 am

Re: UVA $$ V. Penn $

Postby Cobretti » Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:22 pm

SportsFan wrote:
Br3v wrote:
NoodleyOne wrote:
WhirledWorld wrote:I go to Penn, and I cannot believe how many people are insisting Penn is worth 60k more than UVA. It's not, not even if you want NYC biglaw.

First, ask Penn to raise their scholarship, and take the UVA offer to any of the T6 you get into. But if that doesn't change anything, go to UVA unless you cannot stand Charlottesville. Enjoy not having to pay off $60,000 in debt.

This. I don't know what happened recently with Penn that makes people think it's just shy of HYS. It's a great school, but it's still definitely peer with UVA.


Been wondering where this sentiment came from too.

Image

Thats the short answer.


I'd be interested in hearing a response to this from someone. Getting ready to send out my Penn app in the next week, and right now I'm going in with the mindset that it places better than its peer schools. Anyone have numbers that show otherwise?

BigZuck
Posts: 10854
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:53 am

Re: UVA $$ V. Penn $

Postby BigZuck » Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:20 pm

SportsFan wrote:
Br3v wrote:
NoodleyOne wrote:
WhirledWorld wrote:I go to Penn, and I cannot believe how many people are insisting Penn is worth 60k more than UVA. It's not, not even if you want NYC biglaw.

First, ask Penn to raise their scholarship, and take the UVA offer to any of the T6 you get into. But if that doesn't change anything, go to UVA unless you cannot stand Charlottesville. Enjoy not having to pay off $60,000 in debt.

This. I don't know what happened recently with Penn that makes people think it's just shy of HYS. It's a great school, but it's still definitely peer with UVA.


Been wondering where this sentiment came from too.

Image

Thats the short answer.


So Duke is better than NYU huh? Sweet! I've been looking for something to make me feel better about the fact that I'm in at Duke and will inevitably be dinged at NYU.

Thanks bro!

User avatar
Borg
Posts: 370
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:08 pm

Re: UVA $$ V. Penn $

Postby Borg » Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:31 pm

It's amazing how insecure the Penn people always are. Must still have a lot of baggage from the whole Paterno scandal.

User avatar
NoodleyOne
Posts: 2358
Joined: Fri May 25, 2012 7:32 pm

Re: UVA $$ V. Penn $

Postby NoodleyOne » Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:49 pm

Borg wrote:It's amazing how insecure the Penn people always are. Must still have a lot of baggage from the whole Paterno scandal.

Lol

User avatar
Br3v
Posts: 4174
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:18 pm

Re: UVA $$ V. Penn $

Postby Br3v » Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:04 pm

NoodleyOne wrote:
Borg wrote:It's amazing how insecure the Penn people always are. Must still have a lot of baggage from the whole Paterno scandal.

Lol

Hope this is sarcastic.

User avatar
Borg
Posts: 370
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:08 pm

Re: UVA $$ V. Penn $

Postby Borg » Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:18 pm

Br3v wrote:
NoodleyOne wrote:
Borg wrote:It's amazing how insecure the Penn people always are. Must still have a lot of baggage from the whole Paterno scandal.

Lol

Hope this is sarcastic.

I know football is more of an undergrad thing, but it still has an effect on the law school. I'd never go there because it's the first thing people think of.

User avatar
Br3v
Posts: 4174
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:18 pm

Re: UVA $$ V. Penn $

Postby Br3v » Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:21 pm

Borg wrote:
Br3v wrote:
NoodleyOne wrote:
Borg wrote:It's amazing how insecure the Penn people always are. Must still have a lot of baggage from the whole Paterno scandal.

Lol

Hope this is sarcastic.

I know football is more of an undergrad thing, but it still has an effect on the law school. I'd never go there because it's the first thing people think of.


Penn =/= penn state.

User avatar
Borg
Posts: 370
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:08 pm

Re: UVA $$ V. Penn $

Postby Borg » Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:26 pm

Br3v wrote:Penn =/= penn state.


I don't get what you're trying to say.

User avatar
Br3v
Posts: 4174
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:18 pm

Re: UVA $$ V. Penn $

Postby Br3v » Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:32 pm

Borg wrote:
Br3v wrote:Penn =/= penn state.


I don't get what you're trying to say.

Penn state and UPenn are two different universities.

User avatar
Borg
Posts: 370
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:08 pm

Re: UVA $$ V. Penn $

Postby Borg » Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:33 pm

Br3v wrote:
Borg wrote:
Br3v wrote:Penn =/= penn state.


I don't get what you're trying to say.

Penn state and UPenn are two different universities.

I don't think so man, I think it's just that they have different names for different purposes. Like how the Berkeley logo is different from the Cal one they use for sports even though they are the same school.

igo2northwestern
Posts: 255
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2011 12:07 am

Re: UVA $$ V. Penn $

Postby igo2northwestern » Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:34 pm

FlightoftheEarls wrote:NLJ may be a good way to determine placement, but it is a pretty terrible way to determine placement ability. The only thing that matters is how deep into a law school class a firm will go, and none of that data for Penn suggests that it has any distinct advantage over MVPDN.

Here's a thread that lays out I'm talking about: http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=196358&start=25

Here's some better data

Vault V5:
Wachtell | UVa: 2 attnys, Penn: 18 attnys
Cravath | UVa: 8, Penn: 25
Sullivan | UVa: 31, Penn: 42
Skadden | UVa: 44, Penn: 53
Davis Polk | UVa: 26, Penn: 27
V5 Total | UVa: 111, Penn: 165
V5 Per Capita| UVa: 0.31, Penn: 0.68

Non-NY Based Elite:
Kirkland (Chi) | UVa: 39, Penn: 30
Latham (NY/LA) | UVa: 72, Penn: 44
Covington (DC) | UVa: 35, Penn: 23
Gibson (LA) | UVa: 34, Penn: 38
Sidley (Chi) | UVa: 48, Penn: 32
Williams & Connoly (DC) | UVa: 30; Penn: 16
Quinn (LA) | UVa: 15, Penn: 9
MoFo (SF) | UVa: 22, Penn: 25
Ropes & Gray (Boston) | UVa: 24, Penn: 28
Wilmerhale (DC) | UVa: 31, Penn: 28
Keker (SF) | UVa: 1, Penn: 1
Irell (LA) | UVa: 1, Penn: 5
"Non-NY" Total | UVa: 352, Penn: 279
"Non-NY" Per Capita | UVa: 0.99, Penn: 1.15

Penn class size: 243
UVa class size: 357

User avatar
TripTrip
Posts: 2739
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:52 am

Re: UVA $$ V. Penn $

Postby TripTrip » Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:51 pm

Borg wrote:
Br3v wrote:Penn state and UPenn are two different universities.

I don't think so man, I think it's just that they have different names for different purposes. Like how the Berkeley logo is different from the Cal one they use for sports even though they are the same school.
Yeah, and two different law schools! http://law.psu.edu/ https://www.law.upenn.edu/

User avatar
Borg
Posts: 370
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:08 pm

Re: UVA $$ V. Penn $

Postby Borg » Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:58 pm

TripTrip wrote:
Borg wrote:
Br3v wrote:Penn state and UPenn are two different universities.

I don't think so man, I think it's just that they have different names for different purposes. Like how the Berkeley logo is different from the Cal one they use for sports even though they are the same school.
Yeah, and two different law schools! http://law.psu.edu/ https://www.law.upenn.edu/

Haha good one guys. Anyway, whatever I'm sure that for most people the whole scandal is a memory and it won't even matter in five years for the school. I just care because it was such a big deal and I worry about how people would perceive it at first glance on a resume.

User avatar
TripTrip
Posts: 2739
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:52 am

Re: UVA $$ V. Penn $

Postby TripTrip » Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:08 pm

Borg wrote:Haha good one guys. Anyway, whatever I'm sure that for most people the whole scandal is a memory and it won't even matter in five years for the school. I just care because it was such a big deal and I worry about how people would perceive it at first glance on a resume.
So you won't go to any school with Pennsylvania in the name?




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 3 guests