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cooldude87
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Postby cooldude87 » Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:59 pm

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Last edited by cooldude87 on Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Gatriel
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Re: Muslim in the South

Postby Gatriel » Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:03 pm

I think you have good reason to worry -- especially if you have an "Arab/West African" sounding name. That being said, OU law can compete in the DFW market to some extent. I assume you are involved in your local Mosque to some extent? If you want to remain in Oklahoma I'd try to ask some of the guys in there who their attorneys are, and then start getting to know them, or just ask for some informational interviews. Most attorneys are more than willing to talk with aspiring law students, especially if free lunch is involved for them. (might be some money out of pocket on your part, but worth it)

The legal field is just as much about who you know as where you go to school.

Good luck man.

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bk1
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Re: Muslim in the South

Postby bk1 » Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:05 pm

If you want to work in OK, OU is fine. Don't go to Tulane if you don't want to work in LA. If you want to work outside of OK, don't go to OU.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Muslim in the South

Postby CanadianWolf » Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:10 pm

OP: You live in Oklahoma so you should have a good understanding of the locals' temperment with respect to Muslims.

LOLyer
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Re: Muslim in the South

Postby LOLyer » Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:54 pm

What's wrong with old white guys? Are you stereotyping them as people who are racists?

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: Muslim in the South

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:02 pm

LOLyer wrote:What's wrong with old white guys? Are you stereotyping them as people who are racists?


I think it's a pretty fair to say that old white guys, especially from the south, are more likely to be racist and/or just more uncomfortable around different cultures and religions. It's just a generalization, but it might be worth considering when trying to make sure you maximize your chances at finding a legal job.

LOLyer
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Re: Muslim in the South

Postby LOLyer » Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:09 pm

Richie Tenenbaum wrote:
LOLyer wrote:What's wrong with old white guys? Are you stereotyping them as people who are racists?


I think it's a pretty fair to say that old white guys, especially from the south, are more likely to be racist and/or just more uncomfortable around different cultures and religions. It's just a generalization, but it might be worth considering when trying to make sure you maximize your chances at finding a legal job.


If you just looked at statistics, you could back up all sorts of racial prejudice.

Not trying to start a debate, I just find it find it incredibly ironic how people stereotype the south for being racist. Does nobody else see how messed up that is?

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lawhopeful10
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Re: Muslim in the South

Postby lawhopeful10 » Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:15 pm

I am from the northeast and am finishing my undergrad at the University of Alabama. The south is more prejudice/racist period, than other parts of the United States. Any attempts to dispute or contest this are usually people deliberately being disingenuous or are very uninformed. With that said, one still should not assume every or even most older white males they meet exhibit said characteristics.

cooldude87
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Re: Muslim in the South

Postby cooldude87 » Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:28 pm

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Last edited by cooldude87 on Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:35 pm, edited 3 times in total.

turkeysub
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Re: Muslim in the South

Postby turkeysub » Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:30 pm

Even outside of outward prejudice, it seems like its difficult to succeed in business generally in the South when you don't fit neatly with either the White country club establishment or the African-American business community. You might want to get in contact with any Arab/Muslim business associations in the area and see what people say.

Jwb0711
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Re: Muslim in the South

Postby Jwb0711 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:45 am

I like how everyone is stereotyping in this thread.

Anyway, as a current 1L at OU Law - I can say our school is pretty diverse. The GLBT group is probably the most active in the school. I'm saying this as a diehard republican.

I can't think of any reason why you would be treated poorly here, unless you stand up in Con Law and say "we should implement sharia law", or "death to the infidels" or something... and, I doubt you would do that.

TL;DR. Come to OU if you want to work here. You won't have any problems.

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patrickd139
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Re: Muslim in the South

Postby patrickd139 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:54 am

Gatriel wrote:That being said, OU law can compete in the DFW market to some extent.

Just wanted to drop my $.02 and say that (as an OU Law alum), this statement is so close to false that it's borderline reckless to recommend that someone go to OU with the intent of working in Dallas as an attorney after graduation.

Put another way: people who are outside inside the top 5 or so people in the class (not %, people) are the only ones who have a shot at Dallas firm jobs. And that's all the major firm jobs. Barely anyone gets true biglaw. I think there were two from my class, maybe three, if the valedictorian who's now clerking goes back to Dallas biglaw.
Last edited by patrickd139 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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jkpolk
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Re: Muslim in the South

Postby jkpolk » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:06 am

LOLyer wrote:
Richie Tenenbaum wrote:
LOLyer wrote:What's wrong with old white guys? Are you stereotyping them as people who are racists?


I think it's a pretty fair to say that old white guys, especially from the south, are more likely to be racist and/or just more uncomfortable around different cultures and religions. It's just a generalization, but it might be worth considering when trying to make sure you maximize your chances at finding a legal job.


If you just looked at statistics, you could back up all sorts of racial prejudice.

Not trying to start a debate, I just find it find it incredibly ironic how people stereotype the south for being racist. Does nobody else see how messed up that is?


Not at all, because it's true!!!

Image

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BaiAilian2013
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Re: Muslim in the South

Postby BaiAilian2013 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:10 am

I just want to point out that some of the people "stereotyping" in this thread are probably from the South, and may actually love the South for its other characteristics, but are likely speaking from experience and just trying to be realistic.

OP, I can't tell you whether your fears are justified, but I can tell you that you shouldn't go to a regional law school in one area with the intent of living in another. If you decide this is worth leaving the state for, you should put Tulane on a back burner, identify some cities/regions where you would like living and would feel comfortable looking for a job, and look at the law schools that place there.

justme17
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Re: Muslim in the South

Postby justme17 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:07 am

OP, I don't have any significant ties to OU's law program, but I got my undergrad degree there and was pretty heavily involved with the school's Muslim & Arab groups. While obviously everyone's experiences were different, it seemed that most of them were happy at OU overall. There's a surprisingly large number of campus groups (off the top of my head, there's the Muslim Student Association, Arab Student Association, Saudi Student Association, and similar groups for several other Middle Eastern countries.) Many of these groups are quite active on campus and there's strong friendships and support among the members. There's also a new mosque barely a block off campus. I've never been inside but I've heard good things about it. Best of all (for your question), it's quite plainly a Muslim building by it's architecture, but I didn't hear any indications of protests or anger while it was being built (or afterwards.)

All that said, discrimination is very real. The campus itself is more liberal than the rest of the state, but even on campus there's been some real nastiness. Off campus (and especially outside of Norman) it gets worse. I'm assuming by your username that you're male, which will help some (hijabis face by far the most discrimination, although no one avoids it all.) I wish I could give you more insight about employment prospects, but I don't want to speak outside of what I know. It WILL be harder for you here than for a white person of a western background, and I'm sorry for that. I do agree with the poster who suggested talking to Muslims and Arabs on campus. Many of those families in this area are quite affluent, and even if they personally aren't lawyers, they may be able to point you to individuals and practices that are less likely to be discriminatory.

Feel free to PM me if you want more specifics about anything.

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North
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Re: Muslim in the South

Postby North » Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:21 am

LOLyer wrote:
Richie Tenenbaum wrote:
LOLyer wrote:What's wrong with old white guys? Are you stereotyping them as people who are racists?


I think it's a pretty fair to say that old white guys, especially from the south, are more likely to be racist and/or just more uncomfortable around different cultures and religions. It's just a generalization, but it might be worth considering when trying to make sure you maximize your chances at finding a legal job.


If you just looked at statistics, you could back up all sorts of racial prejudice.

Not trying to start a debate, I just find it find it incredibly ironic how people stereotype the south for being racist. Does nobody else see how messed up that is?

Dude, I live in the South. It is undeniably true that, on the whole, overt racism is more prevalent and accepted here than anywhere else in the country. I do not blame OP for being worried.
Last edited by North on Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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somewhatwayward
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Re: Muslim in the South

Postby somewhatwayward » Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:26 am

I think you have some reason to be concerned about prejudice against Muslims, but I think you should be even more concerned about getting a job from OU, period. I just checked its LST numbers and they are actually decent, about 70% reporting jobs, but $140,000 for a 30% chance of failing to land a job is not so great. Will you get scholarship money from them? Have you considered other schools?

mbuckner
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Re: Muslim in the South

Postby mbuckner » Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:37 am

patrickd139 wrote:
Gatriel wrote:That being said, OU law can compete in the DFW market to some extent.

Just wanted to drop my $.02 and say that (as an OU Law alum), this statement is so close to false that it's borderline reckless to recommend that someone go to OU with the intent of working in Dallas as an attorney after graduation.

Put another way: people who are outside the top 5 or so people in the class (not %, people) are the ones who have a shot at Dallas firm jobs. And that's all the firm jobs. Barely anyone gets biglaw. I think there were two from my class, maybe three, if the valedictorian who's now clerking goes back to Dallas biglaw.


Just to clarify - are you saying that unless you are in the top 5 percent at OU, it would be hard to get to Dallas?

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fatpeopleavenger
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Re: Muslim in the South

Postby fatpeopleavenger » Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:18 pm

mbuckner wrote:
patrickd139 wrote:
Gatriel wrote:That being said, OU law can compete in the DFW market to some extent.

Just wanted to drop my $.02 and say that (as an OU Law alum), this statement is so close to false that it's borderline reckless to recommend that someone go to OU with the intent of working in Dallas as an attorney after graduation.

Put another way: people who are outside the top 5 or so people in the class (not %, people) are the ones who have a shot at Dallas firm jobs. And that's all the firm jobs. Barely anyone gets biglaw. I think there were two from my class, maybe three, if the valedictorian who's now clerking goes back to Dallas biglaw.


Just to clarify - are you saying that unless you are in the top 5 percent at OU, it would be hard to get to Dallas?


he/she said top 5 students, not percent.

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patrickd139
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Re: Muslim in the South

Postby patrickd139 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:39 pm

mbuckner wrote:
patrickd139 wrote:
Gatriel wrote:That being said, OU law can compete in the DFW market to some extent.

Just wanted to drop my $.02 and say that (as an OU Law alum), this statement is so close to false that it's borderline reckless to recommend that someone go to OU with the intent of working in Dallas as an attorney after graduation.

Put another way: people who are outside inside the top 5 or so people in the class (not %, people) are the ones who have a shot at Dallas firm jobs. And that's all the firm jobs. Barely anyone gets biglaw. I think there were two from my class, maybe three, if the valedictorian who's now clerking goes back to Dallas biglaw.


Just to clarify - are you saying that unless you are in the top 5 percent at OU, it would be hard to get to Dallas?

Sorry. I fucked that up (shouldn't be posting right before a final). It's been corrected.

You've got to be in the top 5 students to have a realistic shot. And even then you better have ties to Texas, and Dallas specifically.

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: Muslim in the South

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:23 pm

Okie here. I wouldn't go to OU law as a muslim arab. Not proud to type that, but there it is. Person who said you would be fine is just guessing. Hoping, probably. You might be able to have a nice career, really depends on your personality more than anything. But if you are the type that is already worried about it, sounds like you haven't developed the personality to easily cross cultural lines and make everyone feel like you were on the same team. I don't blame you; it would take a rare type.

I would go to law school somewhere where there was a thriving arab community. If we were talking vet, med, pharm school this would be different. Law is very political, you get places by who you know, and there are way fewer legal gigs than in the other fields I mentioned.

Also these figures.. 140k for OU? You know, you could work while you were in law school. Especially if you go to a regional like OU, where there is no way you are getting biglaw.

Still... 70k tuition plus 70k living? I never spent more than 12k-13k a year living in oklahoma... Jesus people its called "Chilis," enjoy the damned soup and salad every once in a while.

Don't see why you can't get some tiny $$ and cut tuition down to 45k-50k, then work in school. Working in school will actually help you get a job, and there are lots of solos, tiny shops that will pay you 10-15 bucks an hour to do some shitty research problems or mindless memos for clients they are screwing over. Reach out to them!

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: Muslim in the South

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:26 pm

patrickd139 wrote:
mbuckner wrote:
patrickd139 wrote:
Gatriel wrote:That being said, OU law can compete in the DFW market to some extent.

Just wanted to drop my $.02 and say that (as an OU Law alum), this statement is so close to false that it's borderline reckless to recommend that someone go to OU with the intent of working in Dallas as an attorney after graduation.

Put another way: people who are outside inside the top 5 or so people in the class (not %, people) are the ones who have a shot at Dallas firm jobs. And that's all the firm jobs. Barely anyone gets biglaw. I think there were two from my class, maybe three, if the valedictorian who's now clerking goes back to Dallas biglaw.


Just to clarify - are you saying that unless you are in the top 5 percent at OU, it would be hard to get to Dallas?

Sorry. I fucked that up (shouldn't be posting right before a final). It's been corrected.

You've got to be in the top 5 students to have a realistic shot. And even then you better have ties to Texas, and Dallas specifically.



I've read your comments before, and I seem to remember you are always talking about biglaw in Dallas. What about shit-law in Dallas? Aren't there a few hundred OU grads in dallas that work family, PI, crim, etc? Can't you go have coffee with a bunch of them and try to get some work? I know it wouldn't be glamourous, and it would pay hourly-shit to start, but this is still feasible correct?

cooldude87
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Re: Muslim in the South

Postby cooldude87 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:14 pm

Thanks for all the advise. Cost at OU would not be more than 50k. I'll get instate, be living at home, and should get a bit of money. I agree with those of you who say most people at OU/in Norman are pretty nice and would not be prejudice. However, like I stated before I think there is a difference between that and being at a disadvantage when trying to get a job at a small/mid sized firm in the metro. I think the best course for me would be to get a higher score and aim for some of the strong regional schools (WUSTL/SMU/Emory/BC/BU)

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patrickd139
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Re: Muslim in the South

Postby patrickd139 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:39 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
patrickd139 wrote:Sorry. I fucked that up (shouldn't be posting right before a final). It's been corrected.

You've got to be in the top 5 students to have a realistic shot. And even then you better have ties to Texas, and Dallas specifically.



I've read your comments before, and I seem to remember you are always talking about biglaw in Dallas. What about shit-law in Dallas? Aren't there a few hundred OU grads in dallas that work family, PI, crim, etc? Can't you go have coffee with a bunch of them and try to get some work? I know it wouldn't be glamourous, and it would pay hourly-shit to start, but this is still feasible correct?

I'm sure that's a viable path. Two things about that, though. First, that's not what the admissions office and career services office tells potential matriculants. They say stuff like "Dallas is like the Southern District of Oklahoma." and "We send people to both coasts, so getting a job anywhere won't be a problem." What they don't say is how few people each year have those opportunities available.

Second, shitlaw in Dallas is not what most people are shooting for when they say "I want to go back to Dallas when I graduate from OU Law." Most (but you're correct, not all) people on this board want biglaw, and many have some misguided notion that it's just as likely to land biglaw in Dallas as it is the equivalent in Tulsa or Oklahoma City. It's simply not true.

Every year there are people who go back to the Dallas area from OU Law. But those people are doing what you're suggesting. They hustle like mad, and end up taking jobs that net them $30-50k per year starting out. If that's what you're looking for, then sure, OU Law might work. I will say this, OU has a fantastic pass rate in Texas. I think the last few sittings have been at or near 100%, but it's a small sample size.

Overriding point is this: I think it's irresponsible to advise people you've never met and know nothing about that they are statistically able to go from OU Law to Dallas midlaw or biglaw.

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: Muslim in the South

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:35 am

patrickd139 wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
patrickd139 wrote:Sorry. I fucked that up (shouldn't be posting right before a final). It's been corrected.

You've got to be in the top 5 students to have a realistic shot. And even then you better have ties to Texas, and Dallas specifically.



I've read your comments before, and I seem to remember you are always talking about biglaw in Dallas. What about shit-law in Dallas? Aren't there a few hundred OU grads in dallas that work family, PI, crim, etc? Can't you go have coffee with a bunch of them and try to get some work? I know it wouldn't be glamourous, and it would pay hourly-shit to start, but this is still feasible correct?

I'm sure that's a viable path. Two things about that, though. First, that's not what the admissions office and career services office tells potential matriculants. They say stuff like "Dallas is like the Southern District of Oklahoma." and "We send people to both coasts, so getting a job anywhere won't be a problem." What they don't say is how few people each year have those opportunities available.

Second, shitlaw in Dallas is not what most people are shooting for when they say "I want to go back to Dallas when I graduate from OU Law." Most (but you're correct, not all) people on this board want biglaw, and many have some misguided notion that it's just as likely to land biglaw in Dallas as it is the equivalent in Tulsa or Oklahoma City. It's simply not true.

Every year there are people who go back to the Dallas area from OU Law. But those people are doing what you're suggesting. They hustle like mad, and end up taking jobs that net them $30-50k per year starting out. If that's what you're looking for, then sure, OU Law might work. I will say this, OU has a fantastic pass rate in Texas. I think the last few sittings have been at or near 100%, but it's a small sample size.

Overriding point is this: I think it's irresponsible to advise people you've never met and know nothing about that they are statistically able to go from OU Law to Dallas midlaw or biglaw.


Ok, this makes sense. Just wanted to make sure because I know OU does have alumni in Dallas. That is too bad about your admissions office. I think those people drink the kool-aid at every school. At CU its all -- best law school within a thousand miles or someshit. Meaningless.




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