New York Law School

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zoomzoom88
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Re: New York Law School

Postby zoomzoom88 » Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:51 pm

somewhatwayward wrote:
zoomzoom88 wrote:
somewhatwayward wrote:Don't do NYLS or Seton Hall under any circumstances. Also, I don't know why you are so impatient - it is December, which is pretty early in the cycle.

Do Rutgers only if it is essentially free.


i'm always anxious haha its just coming out more now ... why no to seton hall? i've heard ppl with my numbers getting scholarships that bring it down to around 20,000 a year plus I will have minimal living expenses I think I could swing it for a good price.


20K a year plus some living expenses gets to 100K in debt after interest. SH is not worth anywhere near 100K. I just see absolutely no reason to go to SH when, if you can get a SH scholarship, you can probably get some $ at Rutgers. I don't know offhand how much Rutgers costs, but I am guessing less than 20K a year in-state even if you get no $. There is just zero advantage to Seton Hall. It is more expensive. It is bigger so more kids to place. It is still in a bad NJ city. I also think the Rutgers name is more respected or perhaps they are equally regarded. What advantages do you think SH has?



Will be living at home with my parents so I won't need the full 20 k for living expenses. I feel a private institution must place better? I have heard RU does an abysmal job of placing students in private practice but a great job of placing in clerkship that lead to private practice jobs.

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oaken
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Re: New York Law School

Postby oaken » Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:02 pm

zoomzoom88 wrote:sorry about the misplacement... and yes it should but i have a c and f issue that I think might be an issue.. i was caught with a joint on the beach over the summer :/


If that's your only issue I can't see that in of itself getting you denied anywhere.

zoomzoom88
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Re: New York Law School

Postby zoomzoom88 » Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:16 pm

and some speeding tickets and i was caught with a fake id in college but the DA dropped in after I spoke to the detective. I was 3 weeks away from turning 21 and he laughed and sent me on my way.

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dingbat
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Re: New York Law School

Postby dingbat » Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:18 pm

Rutgers is perfectly fine if you're content to never leave the state. Rutgers and Seton Hall are both well-regarded in the state, although a lot of places will give preference to the top NYC and Philadelphia schools.

Rutgers is I believe closer to $30k instate, but don't quote me on that. Seton Hall are generous with scholarships, but they come with stips, so there's a good chance you will lose it. Placement statistics are generally on par with each other, but outside of Jersey people have at least heard of Rutgers.

As an aside, if you want to work in Jersey, your focus right from the start must be a state clerkship. Jersey firms predominantly hire clerks, not grads.

sadsituationJD
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Re: New York Law School

Postby sadsituationJD » Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:20 pm

Rutgers actually used to place some kids in proper NYC Biglaw, but there's a catch: most all of them were URM and/or female URM. The school has a much more diverse student body than SH, which is nearly 100% white.

SH has a reputation as a sort of "dumping ground" for rich white kids from north NJ (i.e, Bergen County) whose parents want them to have a law degree, yet Junior lacked the brains/chops to get into a real school. At one time SH was a decent "working class" law school, but the past few years it's tried to become some sort of "Fordham-lite" and failed miserably. They also schooly stack the sections so that nearly everyone loses the $$$. Overall, SH is an overpriced embarrassment and a good school to avoid.

Neither Rutgers nor SH place worth a damn in NJ. In this economy, the NJ firms can get bottom half of the classers from real schools like NYU/Columbia, so why are they going to do any recruiting at these TTT's? Seton Hall is infamous for padding employment stats by steering people into state traffic court clerkships, which last one year and pay 35 K. These are not "real" clerkships by any means, just running errands and such for traffic court judges.

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hume85
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Re: New York Law School

Postby hume85 » Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:25 pm

NYLS estimates COA to be $59,776 per year for people living with their family: --LinkRemoved--

35.5% of the class got full time, bar passage required jobs in 2011: --LinkRemoved--

If it's full scholly you are talking about $30K in debt before interest for a 35.5% chance of a full time legal job, which will probably be in shitlaw. A half scholly means you will have about $100K in debt before interest. I wouldn't go.
Last edited by hume85 on Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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dingbat
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Re: New York Law School

Postby dingbat » Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:27 pm

sadsituationJD wrote:Rutgers actually used to place some kids in proper NYC Biglaw, but there's a catch: most all of them were URM and/or female URM. The school has a much more diverse student body than SH, which is nearly 100% white.

SH has a reputation as a sort of "dumping ground" for rich white kids from north NJ (i.e, Bergen County) whose parents want them to have a law degree, yet Junior lacked the brains/chops to get into a real school. At one time SH was a decent "working class" law school, but the past few years it's tried to become some sort of "Fordham-lite" and failed miserably. They also schooly stack the sections so that nearly everyone loses the $$$. Overall, SH is an overpriced embarrassment and a good school to avoid.

Neither Rutgers nor SH place worth a damn in NJ. In this economy, the NJ firms can get bottom half of the classers from real schools like NYU/Columbia, so why are they going to do any recruiting at these TTT's? Seton Hall is infamous for padding employment stats by steering people into state traffic court clerkships, which last one year and pay 35 K. These are not "real" clerkships by any means, just running errands and such for traffic court judges.
This is all very true. Even though there's a sliver of a chance of placing in NY biglaw, the real career track for Rutgers is State Clerkship->Midlaw or DA jobs. The competition is fierce, akin to going to a T20-T30 and gunning for biglaw. At in-state tuition and low cost of living Rutgers is not a bad bet. Just be realistic about your goals (and, well, if you end up at Rutgers, you could never have achieved the goals you have to give up)

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somewhatwayward
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Re: New York Law School

Postby somewhatwayward » Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:38 pm

zoomzoom88 wrote:
somewhatwayward wrote:
zoomzoom88 wrote:
somewhatwayward wrote:Don't do NYLS or Seton Hall under any circumstances. Also, I don't know why you are so impatient - it is December, which is pretty early in the cycle.

Do Rutgers only if it is essentially free.


i'm always anxious haha its just coming out more now ... why no to seton hall? i've heard ppl with my numbers getting scholarships that bring it down to around 20,000 a year plus I will have minimal living expenses I think I could swing it for a good price.


20K a year plus some living expenses gets to 100K in debt after interest. SH is not worth anywhere near 100K. I just see absolutely no reason to go to SH when, if you can get a SH scholarship, you can probably get some $ at Rutgers. I don't know offhand how much Rutgers costs, but I am guessing less than 20K a year in-state even if you get no $. There is just zero advantage to Seton Hall. It is more expensive. It is bigger so more kids to place. It is still in a bad NJ city. I also think the Rutgers name is more respected or perhaps they are equally regarded. What advantages do you think SH has?



Will be living at home with my parents so I won't need the full 20 k for living expenses. I feel a private institution must place better? I have heard RU does an abysmal job of placing students in private practice but a great job of placing in clerkship that lead to private practice jobs.


They don't. LST has Rutgers-N at 55% and SH at 61% with RU-N actually edging out SH for percentage in big firms although essentially equivalent. That tiny differential is not worth paying tens of thousands of dollars for. RU-N is not good at placing people in bona fide clerkships - they are good at placing people in low-level clerkships with pretty bad outcomes. The truth about any of these schools is you should not go unless they are essentially free and possibly not even then. My RU-N>SH opinion is based on the options you presented us with, but none are good. If RU-N was more expensive than SH, then I guess SH is better.

What kind of money will you get from RU-N? If you can live with your parents and go to SH, I assume you can live with them and go to RU-N. I did not realize RU-N tuition was 30K/year in-state. That is terrible and way too expensive.

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Coveted
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Re: New York Law School

Postby Coveted » Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:43 pm

It takes two seconds to check the actual tuition cost.

It's 22k.

zoomzoom88
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Re: New York Law School

Postby zoomzoom88 » Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:46 pm

according to LSN I think I should be in the running for about 7-12500 a year from RU. putting total cost at around give or take 30,000 for tuition.

BigZuck
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Re: New York Law School

Postby BigZuck » Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:33 pm

What about Rutgers Camden? They'll probably award OP a full ride without even applying.

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dingbat
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Re: New York Law School

Postby dingbat » Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:37 pm

BigZuck wrote:What about Rutgers Camden? They'll probably award OP a full ride without even applying.

I don't know what's preferable, having to live in Camden for 3 years, or graduating with a RU-C law degree

zoomzoom88
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Re: New York Law School

Postby zoomzoom88 » Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:50 pm

can i make a funny joke about a bad law school even thought I'm not going t-14?

... it would be preferable to get the degree so you can burn the piece of paper in a fire for warmth when you can't pay your student loans and your utilities get shut off.

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dingbat
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Re: New York Law School

Postby dingbat » Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:01 pm

zoomzoom88 wrote:can i make a funny joke about a bad law school even thought I'm not going t-14?

... it would be preferable to get the degree so you can burn the piece of paper in a fire for warmth when you can't pay your student loans and your utilities get shut off.

I don't go to a T14.

better would be "at least you'll have something to burn for warmth when..."

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somewhatwayward
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Re: New York Law School

Postby somewhatwayward » Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:08 pm

zoomzoom88 wrote:according to LSN I think I should be in the running for about 7-12500 a year from RU. putting total cost at around give or take 30,000 for tuition.


Hmm well try to play SH and RU-N off each other. Did you apply to RU-C? I would avoid due to the recent issues, but you might be able to leverage scholarship $ from them against RU-N or SH. Whatever you do, never accept the first scholarship offer a school gives you. Schools are hungry for students right now and should be willing to cough more money up. If not, be prepared to walk away. This will often result in a desperate email in June offering you an increased scholarship even though you withdrew as reality sinks in on the school's end.

RU-N at 30K is not terrible. 30K debt is manageable even if you get a low-paying non-legal job. How would you feel if you land in the probably 2/3 of the class that has a bad long-term outcome? Low debt makes this situation not as horrendous as it is for those who pay sticker, but it is emotionally difficult to invest three years of your life into something and fail. Failing is likely coming from these schools. Personally I would not go to RU-N, even for free, because the odds of failing are too high. People are notoriously terrible at predicting how something will make them feel later. They are also subject to many cognitive biases that convince them that they won't be the ones that fail, but in the end, large numbers do.

I think this decision needs to be made in context. What are your other options? How many times have you taken the LSAT?

zoomzoom88
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Re: New York Law School

Postby zoomzoom88 » Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:10 pm

i've only taken the lsat once... i don't feel as if i have many other options. there are little to no jobs for someone with a government degree right now. my ug gpa is a 3.6 but i retook a class that was a four credit course at a D minus and my lsac gpa is a 3.3 due to that.

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piccolittle
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Re: New York Law School

Postby piccolittle » Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:13 pm

zoomzoom88 wrote:i've only taken the lsat once... i don't feel as if i have many other options. there are little to no jobs for someone with a government degree right now. my ug gpa is a 3.6 but i retook a class that was a four credit course at a D minus and my lsac gpa is a 3.3 due to that.

Study and retake as many times as you can to improve your score as much as possible.

zoomzoom88
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Re: New York Law School

Postby zoomzoom88 » Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:13 pm

i know every single person in the world says "i'll be top 1/3 or top 10%" and I understand that my chances of landing a decent job are small but i do have a few contacts and I know no matter what i say i can't convince anyone on here of my work ethic, test taking abilities or intelligence. All i know is that when I put my mind to something I achieve it and I know i can do this in law school. but, this being said i do understand a harsh reality awaits me if i fall short of this goal.

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rinkrat19
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Re: New York Law School

Postby rinkrat19 » Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:17 pm

zoomzoom88 wrote:i know every single person in the world says "i'll be top 1/3 or top 10%" and I understand that my chances of landing a decent job are small but i do have a few contacts and I know no matter what i say i can't convince anyone on here of my work ethic, test taking abilities or intelligence. All i know is that when I put my mind to something I achieve it and I know i can do this in law school. but, this being said i do understand a harsh reality awaits me if i fall short of this goal.

Retaking the LSAT is much easier than killing yourself to try and be top 10%. Be logical.

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hume85
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Re: New York Law School

Postby hume85 » Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:18 pm

zoomzoom88 wrote:i know every single person in the world says "i'll be top 1/3 or top 10%" and I understand that my chances of landing a decent job are small but i do have a few contacts and I know no matter what i say i can't convince anyone on here of my work ethic, test taking abilities or intelligence. All i know is that when I put my mind to something I achieve it and I know i can do this in law school. but, this being said i do understand a harsh reality awaits me if i fall short of this goal.


Then why don't you put your mind to getting a LSAT score in the 99th percentile?

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dingbat
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Re: New York Law School

Postby dingbat » Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:22 pm

hume85 wrote:
zoomzoom88 wrote:i know every single person in the world says "i'll be top 1/3 or top 10%" and I understand that my chances of landing a decent job are small but i do have a few contacts and I know no matter what i say i can't convince anyone on here of my work ethic, test taking abilities or intelligence. All i know is that when I put my mind to something I achieve it and I know i can do this in law school. but, this being said i do understand a harsh reality awaits me if i fall short of this goal.


Then why don't you put your mind to getting a LSAT score in the 99th percentile?
Or at least 5 points higher, which'll get you scholly money into Fordham and maybe entry into Penn, putting you in a much better position

zoomzoom88
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Re: New York Law School

Postby zoomzoom88 » Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:26 pm

touche. i guess i just didn't want to face the idea of taking a year off before law school.

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hume85
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Re: New York Law School

Postby hume85 » Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:31 pm

dingbat wrote:
hume85 wrote:
zoomzoom88 wrote:i know every single person in the world says "i'll be top 1/3 or top 10%" and I understand that my chances of landing a decent job are small but i do have a few contacts and I know no matter what i say i can't convince anyone on here of my work ethic, test taking abilities or intelligence. All i know is that when I put my mind to something I achieve it and I know i can do this in law school. but, this being said i do understand a harsh reality awaits me if i fall short of this goal.


Then why don't you put your mind to getting a LSAT score in the 99th percentile?
Or at least 5 points higher, which'll get you scholly money into Fordham and maybe entry into Penn, putting you in a much better position


:? Not with a 3.3 and a 166. I know you said maybe, but I still think this is wrong.

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dingbat
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Re: New York Law School

Postby dingbat » Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:37 pm

hume85 wrote::? Not with a 3.3 and a 166. I know you said maybe, but I still think this is wrong.

Ouch. I didn't pay attention to GPA. My mistake.
On the other hand, if OP got good grades, maybe that 3.3 can be moved up a bit after this semester; coupled with a February retake OP could still improve his/her chances this year to ..... damn, I don't know how to finish that sentence

sadsituationJD
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Re: New York Law School

Postby sadsituationJD » Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:44 pm

About 10 yrs ago R-N had a much, much better reputation than SH, and was actually much harder to get into. Nowdays I think they're about equal in terms of both being essentially toilets with placement that borders on downright abysmal for 95% of the class.

I will say that among older NJ lawyers, R-N still is viewed as head and shoulders above Seton Hall. SH has always been known for lax admissions standards and mediocrity. SH is a "country club" type private school for the offspring of wealthy white people. It's known for an "Alex P. Keaton" type of annoying yuppie, like this idiot alum who landed in Federal prison recently:

http://www.northjersey.com/news/crime_c ... rison.html

He's a perfect example of the sort of "short bus" types that end up at SH. Mostly spoiled, snotty white boys who try and convince themselves that SH is a "real" law school (which of course it isn't and never will be). Also whatever small Biglaw placement SH has likely comes from nepotism - again, a lot of VERY rich kids go here, and even with their seriously limited skills/intelligence, a family member may have the juice to get them something decent.




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