W&M vs W&L vs Utah vs BYU

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Which should I attend?

William and Mary
12
29%
Washington and Lee
10
24%
University of Utah
5
12%
BYU
14
34%
 
Total votes: 41

awasden
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:51 pm

W&M vs W&L vs Utah vs BYU

Postby awasden » Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:09 pm

Hey everyone just starting to hear back from places and wanted input. I've picked these schools because I can get in with good scholarships. If I end up with each of them being equal cost which should I select?

My end goal is to end up in Utah doing patent law. With that I know I won't get paid as much compared to if I worked other places so that's why these schools were my choices for minimal debt and I like Virginia.

edit:
bit more information: Almost full ride to W&M.
Electrical engineering undergrad good GPA decent LSAT.
LDS/Honor code abiding
Last edited by awasden on Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Rahviveh
Posts: 2271
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:02 pm

Re: W&M vs W&L vs Utah vs BYU

Postby Rahviveh » Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:13 pm

Utah. W&M and W&L are out. but you should use them as leverage to get more scholly money out of Utah.

rebexness
Posts: 4163
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:24 am

Re: W&M vs W&L vs Utah vs BYU

Postby rebexness » Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:15 pm

Last edited by rebexness on Mon Feb 09, 2015 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
nickb285
Posts: 1500
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:25 pm

Re: W&M vs W&L vs Utah vs BYU

Postby nickb285 » Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:20 pm

Cost of attendance is almost certainly going to be lower in Utah due to the much lower cost of living. Like Papi said, the other two will be good as leverage but without a massive scholarship it's unlikely that they'll be cheaper to attend than Utah or BYU.

As for Utah vs BYU, it comes down to whether or not you're LDS. Not sure how familiar you are with Utah, BYU, the LDS church, etc. but unlike many "religious" institutions, which often are only nominally theological, BYU very much expects students to live by their Honor Code--to the point where getting caught drinking or smoking weed or having premarital sex can be grounds for discipline up to and including expulsion. If you're practicing LDS, BYU is a great choice both for the cheap tuition and for the networking opportunities; if you're not LDS (or if you're a jack-Mormon), Utah all the way.

awasden
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:51 pm

Re: W&M vs W&L vs Utah vs BYU

Postby awasden » Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:21 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:Utah. W&M and W&L are out. but you should use them as leverage to get more scholly money out of Utah.


Is that because W&M and W&L are to regional to end up in Utah? Thanks for the quick response. Oh and I already have almost a full ride to W&M so I'll definitely take your advise on leveraging that.

User avatar
justonemoregame
Posts: 1160
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:51 pm

Re: W&M vs W&L vs Utah vs BYU

Postby justonemoregame » Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:23 pm

Utah, my friend. You're gonna want to reserve the right to drink alcohol and have premarital sex while in law school, on the off chance that either or both sound appealing at some point.

And yes, leverage that scholarship.

awasden
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:51 pm

Re: W&M vs W&L vs Utah vs BYU

Postby awasden » Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:06 pm

justonemoregame wrote:Utah, my friend. You're gonna want to reserve the right to drink alcohol and have premarital sex while in law school, on the off chance that either or both sound appealing at some point.

And yes, leverage that scholarship.


haha "reserve the right" that made me laugh for some reason. People here at work looking at me like I'm crazy (boring office). Thanks for the input

User avatar
buddyt
Posts: 773
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:59 pm

Re: W&M vs W&L vs Utah vs BYU

Postby buddyt » Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:08 pm

The fact that you're even applying to BYU suggests to me that you are an active LDS member and that the honor code would not be an issue. If that is the case, it seems like BYU is the obvious choice if you're already from Utah or plan to work there. Ultra cheap tuition, higher ranking/more prestige than UU, option to work elsewhere in the future since you will have access to the national Mormon network, etc.

User avatar
Rahviveh
Posts: 2271
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:02 pm

Re: W&M vs W&L vs Utah vs BYU

Postby Rahviveh » Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:48 pm

Since you want to do patent law, I would also suggest speaking with career services at both BYU and Utah and see what their placement is like in that field. I don't know anything about the market there, but it's worth investigating if that's your career goal. And ask about PLACEMENT, not some BS programs or courses they offer.

User avatar
2012Split177
Posts: 75
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:46 am

Re: W&M vs W&L vs Utah vs BYU

Postby 2012Split177 » Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:36 am

Not sure why it's The Beehive State vs. The Old Dominion here, but as a Virginian I can only speak to the latter - WM and WL are both good schools - not sure who'd recognize them out West though.

See what scholarships you get though - the thing is that WL is a very good school and well-rounded. Students get treated well there and they treat each other well. If you're keen on learning a lot while actually enjoying your 3 years, take a look at WL.

My only connection to WL is that one of my best friends here graduated there a couple years ago, and of his close group of friends, 2 stayed in Virginia, 1 is doing biglaw in New York, and 1 is a prosecutor down in Miami-Dade, so it's got a surprisingly wide reach for such a small school. All the way to Utah though? idunno.

Try to get some big $$$ from WL and then give it a real hard look.

User avatar
ndirish2010
Posts: 2950
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:41 pm

Re: W&M vs W&L vs Utah vs BYU

Postby ndirish2010 » Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:40 am

BYU. BYU. BYU.

LSTfan
Posts: 81
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2012 3:05 am

Re: W&M vs W&L vs Utah vs BYU

Postby LSTfan » Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:57 am

.
Last edited by LSTfan on Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

awasden
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:51 pm

Re: W&M vs W&L vs Utah vs BYU

Postby awasden » Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:21 pm

Thanks for the input everyone! I was really wondering about some of the points you guys brought up about W&L's reach. My Undergrad is from Utah so I was hoping for maybe a change of scenery for a little while, but with the limited reach it seems W&L and W&M have they might be out. If anyone can tell me otherwise let me know. I'm willing to work in utah for summer internships if that would help. And I'm not sure if I even get into a T-14 (a reach for me) if it would be worth the cost. free VS 150,000s a lot to swallow.

User avatar
yeast master
Posts: 92
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 8:23 pm

Re: W&M vs W&L vs Utah vs BYU

Postby yeast master » Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:52 pm

3L patent guy at BYU Law here. There's probably not much difference between BYU and Utah as far as job prospects in Utah go. For a job in Utah, I wouldn't go out of state unless it was T14, which might not be worth the cost, depending on your technical background (in fact, I passed up T14 in favor of BYU for free because I'm a bio PhD and felt like my prospects were good). There's a lot of value in being able to get on the local firms' radar early, and there are some opportunities to work for pay during the school year, which helps for post-graduation employment.

I don't want to paint too rosy of a picture. There are some 3Ls with patent backgrounds who don't have jobs yet. All the EE's and bio PhD's are doing fine, though. T14 would reduce the risk of not finding a job at all, but I doubt going to the Virginia schools would. And they would put you in a worse position for Utah.

User avatar
seancris
Posts: 676
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:10 pm

Re: W&M vs W&L vs Utah vs BYU

Postby seancris » Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:10 pm

W&M and W&L for Utah doesn't make much sense to me.

I vote BYU due to the lower cost, placement in Utah, and I'd bet that they have a tight-knit alumni network.

Although Utah might be a good option if the cost is close, since Utah's employment numbers are a little better.

User avatar
JDAviator
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu May 31, 2012 1:37 pm

Re: W&M vs W&L vs Utah vs BYU

Postby JDAviator » Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:23 am

yeast master wrote:3L patent guy at BYU Law here. There's probably not much difference between BYU and Utah as far as job prospects in Utah go. For a job in Utah, I wouldn't go out of state unless it was T14, which might not be worth the cost, depending on your technical background (in fact, I passed up T14 in favor of BYU for free because I'm a bio PhD and felt like my prospects were good). There's a lot of value in being able to get on the local firms' radar early, and there are some opportunities to work for pay during the school year, which helps for post-graduation employment.

I don't want to paint too rosy of a picture. There are some 3Ls with patent backgrounds who don't have jobs yet. All the EE's and bio PhD's are doing fine, though. T14 would reduce the risk of not finding a job at all, but I doubt going to the Virginia schools would. And they would put you in a worse position for Utah.


Is there any positive correlation to more women at BYU Law not getting full-time legal employment than men? I am not trying to say women are not as qualified or anything. I am just wondering how many LDS women graduates want to have kids or already have kids and only want to work part-time or are not looking as hard for work. I was really surprised to see on law school transparency's site that U of U has a better job placement score than BYU. Any thoughts?

User avatar
JDAviator
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu May 31, 2012 1:37 pm

Re: W&M vs W&L vs Utah vs BYU

Postby JDAviator » Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:29 am

LSTfan wrote:
awasden wrote:My end goal is to end up in Utah doing patent law... LDS/Honor code abiding


Given these facts, it seems like a no-brainer. Absolutely do not go to W&M or W&L -- outside of the top 14, you should never go to a school that doesn't place significant numbers in the market where you ultimately want to end up. So it's whoever is cheaper between BYU and Utah. And if they are essentially the same in price, I would go BYU (but lawschooltransparency.com actually shows Utah as having a better employment score, so you should definitely spend some time talking to actual lawyers in Utah if you can).


I am from Utah and work in a local law firm. The majority of the attorney's in the office are BYU grads, but one is a Utah grad. No one really thinks there is much of a difference in my office about which school to attend.

I was surprised to see Utah have a better employment score. I wonder if it is the women vs men thing I mentioned above. And also the national reach that BYU has over Utah. BYU networking is more global then Utah because I think its class is from a lot of different states and Mormons are everywhere to help out BYU grads even if they didn't attend BYU themselves. BYU grads end up more spread out through the country. Does that affect the employment score at all or is it really only bar passage required, full-time, long-term employment that matters?

User avatar
jenesaislaw
Posts: 996
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 6:35 pm

Re: W&M vs W&L vs Utah vs BYU

Postby jenesaislaw » Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:22 pm

JDAviator wrote:I was surprised to see Utah have a better employment score. I wonder if it is the women vs men thing I mentioned above. And also the national reach that BYU has over Utah. BYU networking is more global then Utah because I think its class is from a lot of different states and Mormons are everywhere to help out BYU grads even if they didn't attend BYU themselves. BYU grads end up more spread out through the country. Does that affect the employment score at all or is it really only bar passage required, full-time, long-term employment that matters?


Employment Score is solely LT, FT BPR - LT, FT Solos. It reflects how the school did across the board, not just in Utah (unfortunately and for now).

As such, you're right to wonder if the ES for BYU is boosted by its ability to network nationally. If that's the case, the question is whether those who left Utah from BYU would have obtained jobs in Utah if they wanted them (without taking away jobs from their fellow BYU grads). We're into speculation territory here, however.

CanadianWolf
Posts: 10439
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:54 pm

Re: W&M vs W&L vs Utah vs BYU

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:52 pm

BYU or Utah for employment in Utah. If cost is equal, then visit both before deciding. Also, since Utah places better, slightly higher COA might be worthwhile. When is the new Utah law school building scheduled to open ? If not for a couple of years, then be sure to ask current law students about the facilities.

havanese11
Posts: 29
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:45 pm

Re: W&M vs W&L vs Utah vs BYU

Postby havanese11 » Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:01 pm

To be honest outside of ~T14 I doubt companies in Utah keep track from year to year which school was ranked higher since they are all tier 1. All four schools will probably be looked upon equally as far as quality of education goes. I've been talking to lawyers in Utah about which schools I've gotten into and there doesn't seem to be any difference in their reaction between ones ranked in that range. To be honest some seem to be more impressed by some of the top tier 2 schools I've gotten into than some of the tier 1 just because of name recognition and people they know who were really successful coming out of those law schools. Networking will probably be the bigger factor in obtaining a better job in Utah and BYU or Utah will give you better opportunities to do that. Leverage BYU vs. Utah for scholarships and see which one will give you more. Compare apples to apples in that regard, W&M is good leverage for W&L but both are much more expensive than Utah or BYU so I think you'll have more luck leveraging the in state competition. As far as patent law goes you would probably have something going if you had gotten into George Washington (DC could live in Virginia) since it is a top 10 patent law program. Since neither W&M or W&L are particularly well known for ip I don't see any advantage of attending those schools over BYU or Utah.

awasden
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:51 pm

Re: W&M vs W&L vs Utah vs BYU

Postby awasden » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:49 am

havanese11 wrote:To be honest outside of ~T14 I doubt companies in Utah keep track from year to year which school was ranked higher since they are all tier 1. All four schools will probably be looked upon equally as far as quality of education goes. I've been talking to lawyers in Utah about which schools I've gotten into and there doesn't seem to be any difference in their reaction between ones ranked in that range. To be honest some seem to be more impressed by some of the top tier 2 schools I've gotten into than some of the tier 1 just because of name recognition and people they know who were really successful coming out of those law schools. Networking will probably be the bigger factor in obtaining a better job in Utah and BYU or Utah will give you better opportunities to do that. Leverage BYU vs. Utah for scholarships and see which one will give you more. Compare apples to apples in that regard, W&M is good leverage for W&L but both are much more expensive than Utah or BYU so I think you'll have more luck leveraging the in state competition. As far as patent law goes you would probably have something going if you had gotten into George Washington (DC could live in Virginia) since it is a top 10 patent law program. Since neither W&M or W&L are particularly well known for ip I don't see any advantage of attending those schools over BYU or Utah.


Thanks that's what I am coming to the conclusion of. I would love GW but I think it would be a little more than I'm willing to spend. I have also talked to a couple lawyers and it made me laugh when they said that they mostly recruit from more prestigious schools like harvard university of utah and byu when I mentioned W&M and W&L. Haha since when has the U and BYU been prestigious. Thought that was funny so not a lot of name recognition in Utah.

User avatar
seancris
Posts: 676
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:10 pm

Re: W&M vs W&L vs Utah vs BYU

Postby seancris » Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:16 pm

awasden wrote:
havanese11 wrote:To be honest outside of ~T14 I doubt companies in Utah keep track from year to year which school was ranked higher since they are all tier 1. All four schools will probably be looked upon equally as far as quality of education goes. I've been talking to lawyers in Utah about which schools I've gotten into and there doesn't seem to be any difference in their reaction between ones ranked in that range. To be honest some seem to be more impressed by some of the top tier 2 schools I've gotten into than some of the tier 1 just because of name recognition and people they know who were really successful coming out of those law schools. Networking will probably be the bigger factor in obtaining a better job in Utah and BYU or Utah will give you better opportunities to do that. Leverage BYU vs. Utah for scholarships and see which one will give you more. Compare apples to apples in that regard, W&M is good leverage for W&L but both are much more expensive than Utah or BYU so I think you'll have more luck leveraging the in state competition. As far as patent law goes you would probably have something going if you had gotten into George Washington (DC could live in Virginia) since it is a top 10 patent law program. Since neither W&M or W&L are particularly well known for ip I don't see any advantage of attending those schools over BYU or Utah.


Thanks that's what I am coming to the conclusion of. I would love GW but I think it would be a little more than I'm willing to spend. I have also talked to a couple lawyers and it made me laugh when they said that they mostly recruit from more prestigious schools like harvard university of utah and byu when I mentioned W&M and W&L. Haha since when has the U and BYU been prestigious. Thought that was funny so not a lot of name recognition in Utah.


That's laughable from a TLS perspective, but it tells you all you need to know if you want to be in Utah, really.

slc2100
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:14 am

Re: W&M vs W&L vs Utah vs BYU

Postby slc2100 » Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:06 pm

buddytyler wrote:The fact that you're even applying to BYU suggests to me that you are an active LDS member and that the honor code would not be an issue. If that is the case, it seems like BYU is the obvious choice if you're already from Utah or plan to work there. Ultra cheap tuition, higher ranking/more prestige than UU, option to work elsewhere in the future since you will have access to the national Mormon network, etc.


Buddytyler- I don't agree that BYU is more prestigious than the U. Is your comment based off the arbitrary USNWR rankings? Or on the fact that more BYU grads end up outside of Utah? First of all, I don't think rankings really matter when you are applying for jobs in Utah. I would guess that most hiring partners don't even pay attention to them. I don't think a firm would ever take a BYU student over a Utah student based solely on rankings. Plus, many partners at SLC firms are U of U alums. Second, most people that go to the U want to practice in Utah. The U is a regional school that does well in its regional market. As a result, the U does not have as broad of a national network. But in this case, the applicant wants to stay in Utah, so national placement is beside the point.

If you want to stay in Utah, you will have no better advantage going to BYU over the U. At the end of the day, it's about who you know, how well you do in school, and whether you are a normal/cool person that interviewers think they could get along with. BYU is no more prestigious than the U in the local market. Both are great schools--go to the one that is the best fit.




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest