ND at sticker?

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hume85
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Re: ND at sticker?

Postby hume85 » Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:39 pm

ndirish2010 wrote:Why is this even a question. OF COURSE NOT!!!!!


+1. Why would you even start this thread? Either you're trolling or you haven't researched this decision. You'd have to be an idiot to pay sticker at ND.

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BruceWayne
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Re: ND at sticker?

Postby BruceWayne » Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:52 pm

I'm pretty anti sticker for almost any school other than one of HYS. But can someone clarify what is so bad about sticker debt for someone who attends a school with an LRAP and is working a PLSF qualifying job? I noticed that some people said that that was a "terrible" way to live or something to that effect.

Golden Bear 11
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Re: ND at sticker?

Postby Golden Bear 11 » Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:54 pm

BruceWayne wrote:I'm pretty anti sticker for almost any school other than one of HYS. But can someone clarify what is so bad about sticker debt for someone who attends a school with an LRAP and is working a PLSF qualifying job? I noticed that some people said that that was a "terrible" way to live or something to that effect.


I think it's because a PLSF qualifying job, like big/mid law, is still difficult to get.

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BruceWayne
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Re: ND at sticker?

Postby BruceWayne » Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:07 pm

Golden Bear 11 wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:I'm pretty anti sticker for almost any school other than one of HYS. But can someone clarify what is so bad about sticker debt for someone who attends a school with an LRAP and is working a PLSF qualifying job? I noticed that some people said that that was a "terrible" way to live or something to that effect.


I think it's because a PLSF qualifying job, like big/mid law, is still difficult to get.


No I'm talking specifically about the situation where someone has attained a PLSF qualifying job. I'm pretty certain that some people were saying that even if you do land a PLSF qualifying job and your school has an LRAP that that is a terrible position. I'm not seeing why.

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dingbat
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Re: ND at sticker?

Postby dingbat » Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:10 pm

Golden Bear 11 wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:I'm pretty anti sticker for almost any school other than one of HYS. But can someone clarify what is so bad about sticker debt for someone who attends a school with an LRAP and is working a PLSF qualifying job? I noticed that some people said that that was a "terrible" way to live or something to that effect.


I think it's because a PLSF qualifying job, like big/mid law, is still difficult to get.

The quality of LRAP varies, but gets progressively worse as you go down the rankings.
As for PSLF, it means staying in an eligible (read: low-pay) job; if it sucks, you're screwed (at least biglaw lets you pay down your loans)

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BruceWayne
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Re: ND at sticker?

Postby BruceWayne » Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:23 pm

dingbat wrote:The quality of LRAP varies, but gets progressively worse as you go down the rankings.
As for PSLF, it means staying in an eligible (read: low-pay) job; if it sucks, you're screwed (at least biglaw lets you pay down your loans)


I didn't think PLSF had a salary cutoff; only that you be in a pi job. So you could be in a government gig at year 8 that pays 100K and you would still qualify right?

Edit: I just checked and there is no salary cutoff. To be honest, ignoring the difficulty of obtaining the job, landing a PLSF qualifying job at a school with even a mediocre LRAP is better than biglaw for those who end up advancing in their positions. You could end up making six figures and having only paid something like 20K yourself towards your loans. All while living a better QOL than a biglaw associate with a lot more job security.

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: ND at sticker?

Postby XxSpyKEx » Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:41 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
dingbat wrote:The quality of LRAP varies, but gets progressively worse as you go down the rankings.
As for PSLF, it means staying in an eligible (read: low-pay) job; if it sucks, you're screwed (at least biglaw lets you pay down your loans)


I didn't think PLSF had a salary cutoff; only that you be in a pi job. So you could be in a government gig at year 8 that pays 100K and you would still qualify right?

Edit: I just checked and there is no salary cutoff. To be honest, ignoring the difficulty of obtaining the job, landing a PLSF qualifying job at a school with even a mediocre LRAP is better than biglaw for those who end up advancing in their positions. You could end up making six figures and having only paid something like 20K yourself towards your loans. All while living a better QOL than a biglaw associate with a lot more job security.



Right, but at year 8, you're paying nearly $15,000 /year towards your student loans (and then there are still taxes, which are taxed at the $100k /year salary rate). Federal and good state government jobs are great, but they're usually just as competitive, if not much more competitive as biglaw. You can't exactly go to a mediocre law school and expect to land something like that. A more realistic PI job, which would qualify for LRAP, would be the PI job that pays you $45k year (which will still be incredibly difficult to get if you're the type of person who really wanted biglaw but then thought you could fallback on PI for loan forgiveness). After taxes in a place like Manhattan, that's closer to $30k/ year. Then you pay 15% of the pretax $45k/ year (adjusted for the poverty line blah blah) out of that $30k /year. (Although there is a tax write-off for part of the interest payments if you make under $60k /year, I think it is). In any event, it's not exactly a great living. It seems that most of the time people who pursue those types of low paying PI jobs have partners who make a lot more money and are willing to support them. But, even in that situation, your loans will impact your ability to get married.

With that all said, if you can get into federal government or good state government, it is much better than biglaw with respect to QOL, job security, and likely with job advancement. It's just not something you can go to a school like ND, get average grades, and hope to get.. Before the economy tanked in 07', biglaw used to be the "fallback" for people who went to my law school who weren't able to get federal government or prestigious clerkships. I think that tells you something about the competitiveness of those positions (the University of Arizona handbook has exact numbers, and it's pretty insane how many people apply to the honors programs and the good state government programs relative to the number of people actually hired).

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Re: ND at sticker?

Postby BruceWayne » Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:52 pm

XxSpyKEx wrote:Right, but at year 8, you're paying nearly $15,000 /year towards your student loans (and then there are still taxes, which are taxed at the $100k /year salary rate). Federal and good state government jobs are great, but they're usually just as competitive, if not much more competitive as biglaw. You can't exactly go to a mediocre law school and expect to land something like that. A more realistic PI job, which would qualify for LRAP, would be the PI job that pays you $45k year (which will still be incredibly difficult to get if you're the type of person who really wanted biglaw but then thought you could fallback on PI for loan forgiveness). After taxes in a place like Manhattan, that's closer to $30k/ year. Then you pay 15% of the pretax $45k/ year (adjusted for the poverty line blah blah) out of that $30k /year. (Although there is a tax write-off for part of the interest payments if you make under $60k /year, I think it is). In any event, it's not exactly a great living. It seems that most of the time people who pursue those types of low paying PI jobs have partners who make a lot more money and are willing to support them. But, even in that situation, your loans will impact your ability to get married.


In a way a lot of what I'm talking about right now doesn't apply to ND. I'm discussing someone who say, goes to UVA/Mich/GULC at sticker and then lands a PLSF qualifying government job. With the way the schools' LRAPs work, combined with PLSF, someone in that spot seems pretty well off to me. UVA. for example, pays a portion of the person's yearly IBR amounts up until they hit 75K. On top of that I believe you get a tax deduction for student loan payments as long as you're under 100K or something to that nature.

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Re: ND at sticker?

Postby bk1 » Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:03 pm

BruceWayne wrote:No I'm talking specifically about the situation where someone has attained a PLSF qualifying job. I'm pretty certain that some people were saying that even if you do land a PLSF qualifying job and your school has an LRAP that that is a terrible position. I'm not seeing why.


I think it's a pretty good position. I think there are some things to be concerned about such as riskiness (losing your job and not finding another qualifying one can fuck you since none of the money you pay actually reduces your debt), being locked in (if you quit before forgiveness you lose everything), etc. Granted there are some of these same risks with biglaw, but at least with biglaw you are always making headway on your loans so that even if you only make it halfway, you at least have half your loans paid off.

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Re: ND at sticker?

Postby XxSpyKEx » Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:36 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
XxSpyKEx wrote:Right, but at year 8, you're paying nearly $15,000 /year towards your student loans (and then there are still taxes, which are taxed at the $100k /year salary rate). Federal and good state government jobs are great, but they're usually just as competitive, if not much more competitive as biglaw. You can't exactly go to a mediocre law school and expect to land something like that. A more realistic PI job, which would qualify for LRAP, would be the PI job that pays you $45k year (which will still be incredibly difficult to get if you're the type of person who really wanted biglaw but then thought you could fallback on PI for loan forgiveness). After taxes in a place like Manhattan, that's closer to $30k/ year. Then you pay 15% of the pretax $45k/ year (adjusted for the poverty line blah blah) out of that $30k /year. (Although there is a tax write-off for part of the interest payments if you make under $60k /year, I think it is). In any event, it's not exactly a great living. It seems that most of the time people who pursue those types of low paying PI jobs have partners who make a lot more money and are willing to support them. But, even in that situation, your loans will impact your ability to get married.


In a way a lot of what I'm talking about right now doesn't apply to ND. I'm discussing someone who say, goes to UVA/Mich/GULC at sticker and then lands a PLSF qualifying government job. With the way the schools' LRAPs work, combined with PLSF, someone in that spot seems pretty well off to me. UVA. for example, pays a portion of the person's yearly IBR amounts up until they hit 75K. On top of that I believe you get a tax deduction for student loan payments as long as you're under 100K or something to that nature.


Like I said, federal government and good state government are great, if you can get it. I do think even at schools like UVA/Mich/GULC, you can't go to law school planning on getting that though. A TON of people want federal government or a good state government job. I mean who doesn't want a ton of paid annual leave, sick leave, good hours, and a low likelihood of ever getting canned unless you really fuck up? ... Just to elaborate, in federal government, after just 3 years of federal service, you get a whopping 20 days of paid annual leave (so about a month) + 13 days of paid sick (so 2.5 weeks), medical, or family leave, basically one holiday per month, plus pretty solid job security. (That's potentially over 1 1/2 month of paid leave + holidays a year!) Moreover, at some agencies, if you work a bunch of hours one week, you can accumulate those hours and use them towards additional paid annual leave. Working for federal government is a pretty cushy job, and obviously a lot better than biglaw when it comes to QOL, long term employment opportunities, and pretty much everything except yearly salary for the first few years (which is when most biglaw associates start getting weeded out). It's just really hard to get into-- EDIT- seriously, just check out the University of Arizona handbook. There are thousands of applications for something like 35 jobs at most agencies.

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Re: ND at sticker?

Postby BruceWayne » Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:33 pm

XxSpyKEx wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
XxSpyKEx wrote:Right, but at year 8, you're paying nearly $15,000 /year towards your student loans (and then there are still taxes, which are taxed at the $100k /year salary rate). Federal and good state government jobs are great, but they're usually just as competitive, if not much more competitive as biglaw. You can't exactly go to a mediocre law school and expect to land something like that. A more realistic PI job, which would qualify for LRAP, would be the PI job that pays you $45k year (which will still be incredibly difficult to get if you're the type of person who really wanted biglaw but then thought you could fallback on PI for loan forgiveness). After taxes in a place like Manhattan, that's closer to $30k/ year. Then you pay 15% of the pretax $45k/ year (adjusted for the poverty line blah blah) out of that $30k /year. (Although there is a tax write-off for part of the interest payments if you make under $60k /year, I think it is). In any event, it's not exactly a great living. It seems that most of the time people who pursue those types of low paying PI jobs have partners who make a lot more money and are willing to support them. But, even in that situation, your loans will impact your ability to get married.


In a way a lot of what I'm talking about right now doesn't apply to ND. I'm discussing someone who say, goes to UVA/Mich/GULC at sticker and then lands a PLSF qualifying government job. With the way the schools' LRAPs work, combined with PLSF, someone in that spot seems pretty well off to me. UVA. for example, pays a portion of the person's yearly IBR amounts up until they hit 75K. On top of that I believe you get a tax deduction for student loan payments as long as you're under 100K or something to that nature.


Like I said, federal government and good state government are great, if you can get it. I do think even at schools like UVA/Mich/GULC, you can't go to law school planning on getting that though. A TON of people want federal government or a good state government job. I mean who doesn't want a ton of paid annual leave, sick leave, good hours, and a low likelihood of ever getting canned unless you really fuck up? ... Just to elaborate, in federal government, after just 3 years of federal service, you get a whopping 20 days of paid annual leave (so about a month) + 13 days of paid sick (so 2.5 weeks), medical, or family leave, basically one holiday per month, plus pretty solid job security. (That's potentially over 1 1/2 month of paid leave + holidays a year!) Moreover, at some agencies, if you work a bunch of hours one week, you can accumulate those hours and use them towards additional paid annual leave. Working for federal government is a pretty cushy job, and obviously a lot better than biglaw when it comes to QOL, long term employment opportunities, and pretty much everything except yearly salary for the first few years (which is when most biglaw associates start getting weeded out). It's just really hard to get into-- EDIT- seriously, just check out the University of Arizona handbook. There are thousands of applications for something like 35 jobs at most agencies.


Not disagreeing with any of this. Just saying that for the hypothetical person who DOES land state or federal I don't think LRAP+PSLF+ IBR is bad at all. Particularly because of what we both pointed out about the job security difference. Your likelihood of staying in your state/fed government job for 10 years to get PLSF (and not even necessarily the same exact one. You could end up going from state to fed, or from one fed job to another etc.). Trust me I'm not Mr. Roses and sunshine but even I think that if you end up landing a government job, even with sticker debt it's not a bad situation with a decent LRAP and PLSF.

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dingbat
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Re: ND at sticker?

Postby dingbat » Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:37 pm

BruceWayne wrote:Just saying that for the hypothetical person who DOES land state or federal I don't think LRAP+PSLF+ IBR is bad at all.

It isn't. However, like biglaw, one shouldn't go to any school banking on getting it unless you go to a T14, and even then, one should be aware of the risks.

LRAP+PSLF+IBR is as big a draw/excuse as biglaw. It's also just as elusive and just as problematic.

Also, I don't like the direction this thread has gone

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Re: ND at sticker?

Postby XxSpyKEx » Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:50 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
XxSpyKEx wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
XxSpyKEx wrote:Right, but at year 8, you're paying nearly $15,000 /year towards your student loans (and then there are still taxes, which are taxed at the $100k /year salary rate). Federal and good state government jobs are great, but they're usually just as competitive, if not much more competitive as biglaw. You can't exactly go to a mediocre law school and expect to land something like that. A more realistic PI job, which would qualify for LRAP, would be the PI job that pays you $45k year (which will still be incredibly difficult to get if you're the type of person who really wanted biglaw but then thought you could fallback on PI for loan forgiveness). After taxes in a place like Manhattan, that's closer to $30k/ year. Then you pay 15% of the pretax $45k/ year (adjusted for the poverty line blah blah) out of that $30k /year. (Although there is a tax write-off for part of the interest payments if you make under $60k /year, I think it is). In any event, it's not exactly a great living. It seems that most of the time people who pursue those types of low paying PI jobs have partners who make a lot more money and are willing to support them. But, even in that situation, your loans will impact your ability to get married.


In a way a lot of what I'm talking about right now doesn't apply to ND. I'm discussing someone who say, goes to UVA/Mich/GULC at sticker and then lands a PLSF qualifying government job. With the way the schools' LRAPs work, combined with PLSF, someone in that spot seems pretty well off to me. UVA. for example, pays a portion of the person's yearly IBR amounts up until they hit 75K. On top of that I believe you get a tax deduction for student loan payments as long as you're under 100K or something to that nature.


Like I said, federal government and good state government are great, if you can get it. I do think even at schools like UVA/Mich/GULC, you can't go to law school planning on getting that though. A TON of people want federal government or a good state government job. I mean who doesn't want a ton of paid annual leave, sick leave, good hours, and a low likelihood of ever getting canned unless you really fuck up? ... Just to elaborate, in federal government, after just 3 years of federal service, you get a whopping 20 days of paid annual leave (so about a month) + 13 days of paid sick (so 2.5 weeks), medical, or family leave, basically one holiday per month, plus pretty solid job security. (That's potentially over 1 1/2 month of paid leave + holidays a year!) Moreover, at some agencies, if you work a bunch of hours one week, you can accumulate those hours and use them towards additional paid annual leave. Working for federal government is a pretty cushy job, and obviously a lot better than biglaw when it comes to QOL, long term employment opportunities, and pretty much everything except yearly salary for the first few years (which is when most biglaw associates start getting weeded out). It's just really hard to get into-- EDIT- seriously, just check out the University of Arizona handbook. There are thousands of applications for something like 35 jobs at most agencies.


Not disagreeing with any of this. Just saying that for the hypothetical person who DOES land state or federal I don't think LRAP+PSLF+ IBR is bad at all. Particularly because of what we both pointed out about the job security difference.


Well, duh. lol... Fed gvt is an awesome job, and that's why practically everyone and their mom wants one.

dingbat wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:Just saying that for the hypothetical person who DOES land state or federal I don't think LRAP+PSLF+ IBR is bad at all.

It isn't. However, like biglaw, one shouldn't go to any school banking on getting it unless you go to a YALE, and even then, one should be aware of the risks.


FTFY... The honors program hiring is extremely competitive. It's also somewhat random. A former co-clerk and I speculated about this one time, and we both believe there's some type of a lottery system in place for interviewing/hiring. The agencies just get way too many applications, and if you look at who is hired, it is somewhat random (e.g. if you look at the DOJ honors list, you will see people from all over the chart on it).




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