ND at sticker?

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dingbat
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Re: ND at sticker?

Postby dingbat » Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:59 pm

kdev1203 wrote:Yes, I'm talking about Notre Dame.

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kdev1203 wrote:Where are y'all getting a quarter million in debt from? COA is 64K (which, as we all know, can be slashed by at least 5-10K with air rewards cards, roommates, careful planning, etc.) x 3 = 192K. Am I missing something?

At the very least, interest. But let's call it at $200,000. Don't worry, it's not that much.
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FitterHappier289
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Re: ND at sticker?

Postby FitterHappier289 » Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:00 pm

Interest, you putz. Oh and feeding yourself.

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orbbs
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Re: ND at sticker?

Postby orbbs » Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:04 pm

kdev1203 wrote:Eesh. What have I started, here?

1. Yes, I'm talking about Notre Dame.

2. Where are y'all getting a quarter million in debt from? COA is 64K (which, as we all know, can be slashed by at least 5-10K with air rewards cards, roommates, careful planning, etc.) x 3 = 192K. Am I missing something?


The fact that your loans will accrue interest while still in school. That adds a good chunk of cash to the published COA.

kdev1203
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Re: ND at sticker?

Postby kdev1203 » Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:07 pm

orbbs wrote:
kdev1203 wrote:Eesh. What have I started, here?

1. Yes, I'm talking about Notre Dame.

2. Where are y'all getting a quarter million in debt from? COA is 64K (which, as we all know, can be slashed by at least 5-10K with air rewards cards, roommates, careful planning, etc.) x 3 = 192K. Am I missing something?


The fact that your loans will accrue interest while still in school. That adds a good chunk of cash to the published COA.


+1, thank you

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dingbat
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Re: ND at sticker?

Postby dingbat » Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:08 pm

orbbs wrote:
kdev1203 wrote:Eesh. What have I started, here?

1. Yes, I'm talking about Notre Dame.

2. Where are y'all getting a quarter million in debt from? COA is 64K (which, as we all know, can be slashed by at least 5-10K with air rewards cards, roommates, careful planning, etc.) x 3 = 192K. Am I missing something?


The fact that your loans will accrue interest while still in school. That adds a good chunk of cash to the published COA.

For me to be a bit less douchy.
$65k * 8% = approximately $5k
Yr 1: $5k (loan of $64k)
Yr 2: $10k (loans of $128k)
Yr 3: $15k (loans of $192k)
Total: $30k
$192k + $30k = $222k.
You're right, that's not a quarter million dollars
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timbs4339
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Re: ND at sticker?

Postby timbs4339 » Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:10 pm

orbbs wrote:
kdev1203 wrote:Eesh. What have I started, here?

1. Yes, I'm talking about Notre Dame.

2. Where are y'all getting a quarter million in debt from? COA is 64K (which, as we all know, can be slashed by at least 5-10K with air rewards cards, roommates, careful planning, etc.) x 3 = 192K. Am I missing something?


The fact that your loans will accrue interest while still in school. That adds a good chunk of cash to the published COA.


Factor in projected tuition increases (5%) and another 1K/year for books as well.

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justonemoregame
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Re: ND at sticker?

Postby justonemoregame » Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:10 pm

Guys, please. "Putz?"

You are responding to someone who has been entrusted by the federal government to give final approval on the underwriting of these loans. OP is clearly qualified in this regard. You don't need a PhD in Finance to figure out that 64K X three is 175,000 and even if you get a 50K job after graduation, 175K will take EXACTLY 3.5 years to pay off.

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: ND at sticker?

Postby XxSpyKEx » Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:29 pm

justonemoregame wrote:
XxSpyKEx wrote:
justonemoregame wrote:If you're in love with the school, then yes, it's a great decision. Don't let others on here troll you about placement. What goes up must come down, if you're going UP to Notre Dame, then you'll land somewhere.

A lot of people giving advice in these threads ask others: what do you want? Well, it's clear what you want. So go grab life by the horns.


What a terrible, complete lack of any basis in facts, statistics, or reasoning, post. Basic common sense suggests spending a quarter million dollars because "you'll land somewhere," such as Starbucks, is not "great decision" by any means. Why not just take that quarter million dollars and invest in stocks, or even a house? Odds are better than 62% there that your investment will return some kind of a profit over the course of your lifetime. (Actually, 62% is an overstatement because with that kind of debt at 7-8% interest, you need more than just some legal job, and most likely a biglaw job, if you want your law school investment to return a profit in the next decade or so).


Well, the reason you can't just take it and invest it in some other manner is because the US government isn't likely to give it to you.

What OP is looking for here is not anything you can represent with statistics or fact. He/she has already looked at that (employment data) and we can assume they're capable of basic math, so they know the "price" of attending Notre Dame without scholarship.

What OP is looking for is the moral go-ahead to make a decision that is clearly terrible from a stand alone investment standpoint. But, OP is not alone. I mean, what are the odds that OP will be the only person paying this debt back? 10-15%?

Most likely, they will be on IBR + PAYE + potentially PLSF, and the bulk of the burden will be shifted to taxpayers. The question then is whether or not you're comfortable shifting the burden. Many people are not only comfortable with that, they are comfortable with allowing 22 year-olds to final stamp the underwriting.

The other part of this that people forget is that Americans are just different, ya know? What we want is a big part of the equation. Prudence and need are just funny things you read about in the CNN international section. I'm sure there are many reasons to fall in love with Notre Dame, and OP has apparently done so, so you guys stop interrupting a good love story.


I think the notion that "the bulk of the burden will be shifted to taxpayers" is a bit inaccurate. I mean, yes, if OP goes into public interest and does that for 10 full years, but PI jobs aren't the easiest things to find nowadays, especially if you're someone who is trying to get PI as a fallback plan for repaying your loans. With income contingent repayment, it's 20-25 years at 15% of your salary, and there is a giant tax bill when the loans are "forgiven." If you're making jackshit for 20-25 years and making 15% of your income minimum payments, the principal of the loan is going to balloon over the next 20-25 years. I'm too lazy to do that math right now, but say you have half a million forgiven, then that is treated as taxable income and you have to pay a LOT of tax on that. If you've been making jackshit the past 20-25 years, you aren't going to be able to afford that. I guess at this point bankruptcy is an option-- but seriously? Going to law school now with the plan of potentially going bankrupt (to get rid of your student loans) 20-25 years from now (when you are getting close to the age of retirement)? That's a bad decision no matter how you dice it.

EDIT- nevermind. I see what's going on here now... justonemoregame is just trolling. Dick. lol.

LeBronBBall
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Re: ND at sticker?

Postby LeBronBBall » Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:43 pm

justonemoregame wrote:Guys, please. "Putz?"

You are responding to someone who has been entrusted by the federal government to give final approval on the underwriting of these loans. OP is clearly qualified in this regard. You don't need a PhD in Finance to figure out that 64K X three is 175,000 and even if you get a 50K job after graduation, 175K will take EXACTLY 3.5 years to pay off.


Not sure if you are flaming, trolling, or just writing stuff while drunk.

With 50k/yr salary, it will take 10-15 years to pay off 175k in debt assuming you live an extremely frugal life style. You're forgetting the fact that your salary will be taxed (at ~36%) and the fact that you need a roof over your head and need to eat. Not to mention, that 175k in debt won't be 175k as time progresses, due to the interest.

I work at a consulting firm as an analyst, making slightly more than 70k a year. I live a very frugal life style, and live in a shit hole in Brooklyn with two roommates to save money on rent. Still, I have a very hard time saving anything more than 1.5k a month, even if I don't go out to eat/drink that often.

It's only when you actually start working that you realize the value of each dollar you pull in, and have the experience to say, with confidence, that 200k is a fuck ton of money.

EDIT: People mention IBR. But, my impression is that it is pretty difficult to land a job that would qualify for IBR. Correct me if I am wrong. And, if you don't get a job qualifying for IBR, you will be pretty much fucked with that much debt.
Last edited by LeBronBBall on Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: ND at sticker?

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:45 pm

kdev1203 wrote: Am I missing something?


Yes.

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dingbat
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Re: ND at sticker?

Postby dingbat » Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:54 pm

LeBronBBall wrote:EDIT: People mention IBR. But, my impression is that it is pretty difficult to land a job that would qualify for IBR. Correct me if I am wrong. And, if you don't get a job qualifying for IBR, you will be pretty much fucked with that much debt.

You're conflating IBR with PSLF. PSLF requires qualfied work. IBR requires that you're poor. The difference between the two is quite staggering:
PSLF - must make payments based on IBR for 120 months, thereafter loans are forgiven
IBR - payments are based on income. After 25 years, remainder is discharged as taxable income

either way, OP will be fine.

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dowu
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Re: ND at sticker?

Postby dowu » Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:55 pm

dingbat wrote:
LeBronBBall wrote:EDIT: People mention IBR. But, my impression is that it is pretty difficult to land a job that would qualify for IBR. Correct me if I am wrong. And, if you don't get a job qualifying for IBR, you will be pretty much fucked with that much debt.

You're conflating IBR with PSLF. PSLF requires qualfied work. IBR requires that you're poor. The difference between the two is quite staggering:
PSLF - must make payments based on IBR for 120 months, thereafter loans are forgiven
IBR - payments are based on income. After 25 years, remainder is discharged as taxable income

either way, OP will be fine.

Yep.

LeBronBBall
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Re: ND at sticker?

Postby LeBronBBall » Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:03 pm

dingbat wrote:
LeBronBBall wrote:EDIT: People mention IBR. But, my impression is that it is pretty difficult to land a job that would qualify for IBR. Correct me if I am wrong. And, if you don't get a job qualifying for IBR, you will be pretty much fucked with that much debt.

You're conflating IBR with PSLF. PSLF requires qualfied work. IBR requires that you're poor. The difference between the two is quite staggering:
PSLF - must make payments based on IBR for 120 months, thereafter loans are forgiven
IBR - payments are based on income. After 25 years, remainder is discharged as taxable income

either way, OP will be fine.


For IBR, there is no restriction on what type of job you are on? Does it at least have to be a legal 'lawyer' job?

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dingbat
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Re: ND at sticker?

Postby dingbat » Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:55 pm

LeBronBBall wrote:For IBR, there is no restriction on what type of job you are on? Does it at least have to be a legal 'lawyer' job?
It's hard to be serious in this thread. IBR is not law school specific and has nothing to do with what kind of job you get. The only requirement is that you can't afford the normal repayments. Do not go into law school hoping for IBR. It's a safety net to ensure you don't get thoroughly fucked at graduation. It means your repayments never exceed more than a percentage of your income. However, it's not a panacea. Because your repayments are low, the interest you will end up paying will be very high. More importantly, your loan balance will probably be going up, so you will owe a lot more. I can see a $250,000 loan turning into a million dollars (not likely, but mathematically possible). that means you will not be able to borrow any money to buy a home and will not be able to save money for retirement. If after 25 years you still owe money, it is forgiven, but it counts as taxable income. So if your debt is $500,000 (which is quite likely), you will be hit with a six figure tax bill - which you won't have the money for. Then you either have to declare bankruptcy, or make an arrangement with the IRS. If you choose bankruptcy, the IRS will take almost everything you own, but at least you get to start fresh - at 50. If you make an arrangement, you'll be making additional payments to the IRS, probably at the same rate you were paying your loans - meaning your debt won't go away for a very long time.

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: ND at sticker?

Postby XxSpyKEx » Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:32 pm

dingbat wrote:
LeBronBBall wrote:For IBR, there is no restriction on what type of job you are on? Does it at least have to be a legal 'lawyer' job?
It's hard to be serious in this thread. IBR is not law school specific and has nothing to do with what kind of job you get. The only requirement is that you can't afford the normal repayments. Do not go into law school hoping for IBR. It's a safety net to ensure you don't get thoroughly fucked at graduation. It means your repayments never exceed more than a percentage of your income. However, it's not a panacea. Because your repayments are low, the interest you will end up paying will be very high. More importantly, your loan balance will probably be going up, so you will owe a lot more. I can see a $250,000 loan turning into a million dollars (not likely, but mathematically possible). that means you will not be able to borrow any money to buy a home and will not be able to save money for retirement. If after 25 years you still owe money, it is forgiven, but it counts as taxable income. So if your debt is $500,000 (which is quite likely), you will be hit with a six figure tax bill - which you won't have the money for. Then you either have to declare bankruptcy, or make an arrangement with the IRS. If you choose bankruptcy, the IRS will take almost everything you own, but at least you get to start fresh - at 50. If you make an arrangement, you'll be making additional payments to the IRS, probably at the same rate you were paying your loans - meaning your debt won't go away for a very long time.


It's crazy because going to school is really the only way you can make a decision now (in terms of credit) that fucks you this badly. You could go out and get a mortgage, credit cards, and buy all kinds of crap you can't afford now, and the worst that's going to happen is you'll have to declare bankruptcy, you lose most of the stuff you bought but couldn't afford, and all will be forgotten about something like 7 years after that. You fuck up and make a bad decision about going to school, you're fucked for life (unless you think you can start over fresh at the age of 57). Anyways, I think you're right dingbat, ND at sticker is a great decision :wink:

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ndirish2010
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Re: ND at sticker?

Postby ndirish2010 » Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:48 am

Why is this even a question. OF COURSE NOT!!!!!

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romothesavior
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Re: ND at sticker?

Postby romothesavior » Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:05 am

A quarter million dollars of debt for what, like a 25% chance at biglaw or a solid clerkship? What about that sounds appealing? And if you miss biglaw or a 10-year IBR job, you'll pay even more, probably well in excess of half a million bucks. That's crippling, life-destroying debt. This isn't some fairytale hypothetical either, this is happening to lots of students at ND and peer schools every year. It really is that bad out there.

This is a terrible, terrible decision. And nothing against ND either, I wouldn't tell anyone to even consider paying that kind of money for LS unless we're talking at least T14.

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gobuffs10
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Re: ND at sticker?

Postby gobuffs10 » Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:56 pm

OP, I am like you and wanted to go to ND more than anything. Talk to some kids there. From what I know, people have NOT been doing well with job placement.

balzie94
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Re: ND at sticker?

Postby balzie94 » Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:14 pm

.
Last edited by balzie94 on Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

rad lulz
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Re: ND at sticker?

Postby rad lulz » Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:22 pm

balzie94 wrote:Absolutely not. ND is worth $60k or less TOTAL.

This.

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AbbeyRoadLaw
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Re: ND at sticker?

Postby AbbeyRoadLaw » Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:40 pm

justonemoregame wrote:Guys, please. "Putz?"

You are responding to someone who has been entrusted by the federal government to give final approval on the underwriting of these loans. OP is clearly qualified in this regard. You don't need a PhD in Finance to figure out that 64K X three is 175,000 and even if you get a 50K job after graduation, 175K will take EXACTLY 3.5 years to pay off.


Oh dear lord...

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dowu
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Re: ND at sticker?

Postby dowu » Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:46 pm

AbbeyRoadLaw wrote:
justonemoregame wrote:Guys, please. "Putz?"

You are responding to someone who has been entrusted by the federal government to give final approval on the underwriting of these loans. OP is clearly qualified in this regard. You don't need a PhD in Finance to figure out that 64K X three is 175,000 and even if you get a 50K job after graduation, 175K will take EXACTLY 3.5 years to pay off.


Oh dear lord...

I laughed.

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dingbat
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Re: ND at sticker?

Postby dingbat » Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:50 pm

rad lulz wrote:
balzie94 wrote:Absolutely not. ND is worth $60k or less TOTAL.

This.

Enough of this trolling. Everyone knows Notre Dame has the best football team in the country and if Rudy can walk on and get a sack, do can you.

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lisjjen
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Re: ND at sticker?

Postby lisjjen » Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:57 pm

Image

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BarbellDreams
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Re: ND at sticker?

Postby BarbellDreams » Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:30 pm

No. Seriously. No. They'll try to sell you their "alumni network" and say the debt will be worth it. Its not.




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