Full-rides you'd turn down HYS-sticker for (poll included)

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Lowest-ranked Full-ride you'd turn down HYS at sticker for

Columbia
166
17%
Chicago
118
12%
NYU
121
12%
Berkeley
97
10%
U-Penn
89
9%
UVA
71
7%
Michigan
76
8%
Duke
64
7%
Northwestern
74
8%
Georgetown/Cornell
96
10%
 
Total votes: 972

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john1990
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Re: Full-rides you'd turn down HYS-sticker for (poll included)

Postby john1990 » Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:09 pm

none should probably at least be an option.
I would go for Cornell

post hoc
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Re: Full-rides you'd turn down HYS-sticker for (poll included)

Postby post hoc » Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:46 am

SemperLegal wrote: The way I see it, you are going to be fairly pissed if a huge chunk of your Biglaw salary is going to service a debt that you could have avoided; you will be straight fucked if you don't land biglaw and have that debt.


this is the salient argument if you are at all debt averse. even if you get biglaw, 75% of associates leave after 3 years, and you will most likely not have payed off your loans by then. a T14 with a sufficiently high probability of biglaw and a full ride ought to be your choice. CCN and P are most likely the credited answer. though whether or not you ought to be debt averse is debatable. irrespective of the discussion on COL and how it feels to have that kind of debt -- even with a decent job -- the loans you receive are all government backed. and the government's repayment terms are lax, particularly given the new pay as you earn program which caps payments at 10% of discretionary income. of course the main counter against such a repayment program is the tax burden upon having the remaining principle forgiven. if you have aspirations to academia or an AIII clerkship, then you should go to HYS.


SemperLegal wrote:TDLR:Really, without any interest in academia, prestige gov, or prestige PI, at HYS you are paying 200k for a safety net if you do ~10% below what you would at some of the lower T14's. I think some of that edge is also eaten up by the more extreme gunners and geniuses that you will be competing with.


there are no geniuses at any lawl school, HYS included

hdivine
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Re: Full-rides you'd turn down HYS-sticker for (poll included)

Postby hdivine » Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:24 am

john1990 wrote:none should probably at least be an option.
I would go for Cornell


I didn't think of putting "none" as an option until it was too late to edit the poll. I'm also interested in what the dollar amount of grant money is that would sway some people toward HYS instead of other T14s at full-ride.

I've included a new poll.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=199303

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NoodleyOne
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Re: Full-rides you'd turn down HYS-sticker for (poll included)

Postby NoodleyOne » Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:37 am

Lowest I'd turn down is maybe Duke/Michigan. Can't say for certain, but I'd at least have to think about it.

az21833
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Re: Full-rides you'd turn down HYS-sticker for (poll included)

Postby az21833 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:02 pm

does Chicago even give out full rides? and NYU its just those special-interest named scholarships right? if I am right about both of those, i think only CLS make sense.

hdivine
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Re: Full-rides you'd turn down HYS-sticker for (poll included)

Postby hdivine » Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:24 pm

az21833 wrote:does Chicago even give out full rides? and NYU its just those special-interest named scholarships right? if I am right about both of those, i think only CLS make sense.

I don't know about NYU, but it's the last year for the Rubenstein (full-ride) at Chicago.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Full-rides you'd turn down HYS-sticker for (poll included)

Postby BruceWayne » Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:39 pm

InGoodFaith wrote:What is this? A substantial number of people would actually turn down a full ride at CCN just to pay full freight at HYS? Y'all are either insane or 0L gunners.


Sticker versus free is a bit much. But HYS= a biglaw job in another market outside of NYC if you want it (assuming you aren't from NYC). Whereas CCN = maybe a biglaw job in NYC. That's a pretty big damn difference. Although again I agree that free versus 250K is pushing it. HYS does need based aid though so the likelihood of you paying sticker there isn't big.

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sinfiery
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Re: Full-rides you'd turn down HYS-sticker for (poll included)

Postby sinfiery » Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:42 pm

If you're paying sticker at HYS, you probably care more about the prestige gained than the job prospects.


Poll is completely biased because of all the poors.

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spicyyoda17
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Re: Full-rides you'd turn down HYS-sticker for (poll included)

Postby spicyyoda17 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:47 pm

Two questions:

1) So if you have a desire to work BigLaw but not really in NYC, turning down a T14 full-ride for HYS might make more sense than for those wanting NYC BigLaw?

2) If between financial aid + personal savings, you're confident you could graduate from HYS with $130k of debt max, does it make sense to still turn them down for a T14 full-ride? Or, does that change things?

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Elston Gunn
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Re: Full-rides you'd turn down HYS-sticker for (poll included)

Postby Elston Gunn » Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:53 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
InGoodFaith wrote:What is this? A substantial number of people would actually turn down a full ride at CCN just to pay full freight at HYS? Y'all are either insane or 0L gunners.


Sticker versus free is a bit much. But HYS= a biglaw job in another market outside of NYC if you want it (assuming you aren't from NYC). Whereas CCN = maybe a biglaw job in NYC. That's a pretty big damn difference. Although again I agree that free versus 250K is pushing it. HYS does need based aid though so the likelihood of you paying sticker there isn't big.


Pretty much this. Also, the difference isn't ever going to be more than 210Kish with interest, and that's if it's the Rubenstein, which comes with a stipend. A Hamiltion is more like 180K if you're getting zero aid.

The math Rayiner has done somewhere about how dramatic long term outcomes based on getting vs. missing biglaw is pretty compelling. The near certainty at (particularly) Yale is worth quite a bit, even if you have no interest in academia. That's without adding in the potential access you have to more desirable jobs like DOJ Honors.

I think for most people HYS is worth at least $100K over CC.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Full-rides you'd turn down HYS-sticker for (poll included)

Postby BruceWayne » Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:06 pm

spicyyoda17 wrote:Two questions:

1) So if you have a desire to work BigLaw but not really in NYC, turning down a T14 full-ride for HYS might make more sense than for those wanting NYC BigLaw?

2) If between financial aid + personal savings, you're confident you could graduate from HYS with $130k of debt max, does it make sense to still turn them down for a T14 full-ride? Or, does that change things?


1) Unfortunately it might. That's how bad your chances are at non NYC biglaw from a non HYS versus HYS.

2) I'm debt averse now and I would still recommend HYS 130K over top 14 full ride unless you are 100 percent sure you want to work in NYC and the full ride is Columbia or Chicago (maybe NYU too).

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Full-rides you'd turn down HYS-sticker for (poll included)

Postby Tiago Splitter » Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:43 pm

Elston Gunn wrote:The math Rayiner has done somewhere about how dramatic long term outcomes based on getting vs. missing biglaw is pretty compelling.

Agreed. Certainly had an impact on my decison.

Elston Gunn wrote:I think for most people HYS is worth at least $100K over CC.

It certainly seems to play out that way. Looking at LSN, most of the non-HYS full ride people choose HYS anyway.

BruceWayne wrote:2) I'm debt averse now and I would still recommend HYS 130K over top 14 full ride unless you are 100 percent sure you want to work in NYC and the full ride is Columbia or Chicago (maybe NYU too).

1. 130K debt means you are only going to be about 60K more in debt than you would be with a CCN full ride. Thank you for being so bold.

2. Still waiting for an answer from you about why your logic holds for someone 100% sure about NYC but not 90%, 70%, or 50% sure.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Full-rides you'd turn down HYS-sticker for (poll included)

Postby BruceWayne » Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:11 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
Elston Gunn wrote:The math Rayiner has done somewhere about how dramatic long term outcomes based on getting vs. missing biglaw is pretty compelling.

Agreed. Certainly had an impact on my decison.

Elston Gunn wrote:I think for most people HYS is worth at least $100K over CC.

It certainly seems to play out that way. Looking at LSN, most of the non-HYS full ride people choose HYS anyway.

BruceWayne wrote:2) I'm debt averse now and I would still recommend HYS 130K over top 14 full ride unless you are 100 percent sure you want to work in NYC and the full ride is Columbia or Chicago (maybe NYU too).

1. 130K debt means you are only going to be about 60K more in debt than you would be with a CCN full ride. Thank you for being so bold.

2. Still waiting for an answer from you about why your logic holds for someone 100% sure about NYC but not 90%, 70%, or 50% sure.



1. Lol that was my point. Even then it makes me cringe a bit.
2. There are better financial deals than going to CCN sticker if you are OK with working NYC but would really prefer to work somewhere else. For example even a half scholly at Michigan would make more sense for someone who really wants to work in Indy, Chicago, Milwaukee, or Minnesota but are just OK with working NYC.

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bernaldiaz
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Re: Full-rides you'd turn down HYS-sticker for (poll included)

Postby bernaldiaz » Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:22 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
Elston Gunn wrote:The math Rayiner has done somewhere about how dramatic long term outcomes based on getting vs. missing biglaw is pretty compelling.

Agreed. Certainly had an impact on my decison.



Link?

M458
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Re: Full-rides you'd turn down HYS-sticker for (poll included)

Postby M458 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:30 pm

Alright, so I applied to NU ED before I got my December re-take score back and got in. I was thrilled...until I saw my score in January (176). Along with my GPA (3.9x) and URM status (I asked a few times here and the consensus was mixed whether I'd be considered a URM since I'm Mexican and a non-resident, but I did do undergrad here in the US), I am kind of looking at my ED and thinking I might've goofed. Especially reading about how much of a "sure thing" HYS are.

Thing is, I WANT to end up in Chicago...and I can't really do anything much at this point, right (I withdrew all my applications as the ED agreemet stated and I'm not even sure sitting out a cycle would get me out of ED, not to mention I'd feel so stupid for doing that)? 95% of me is thrilled with this opportunity as NU for almost free is just about perfect for someone wanting to end up in Chicago, but the other 5% of me has this nagging feeling that I gave up a shot at possibly getting into Yale. Basically...can someone just reassure me?! :) I'm not interested in academia and I don't think I can even do clerkships or gov positions b/c of my International status, but if I somehow end up missing out on BigLaw from NU I feel like this is something I'll really, really regret. Responses like "Seriously? Shut up and be happy w/ it." are totally acceptable here.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Full-rides you'd turn down HYS-sticker for (poll included)

Postby Tiago Splitter » Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:40 pm

bernaldiaz wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:
Elston Gunn wrote:The math Rayiner has done somewhere about how dramatic long term outcomes based on getting vs. missing biglaw is pretty compelling.

Agreed. Certainly had an impact on my decison.



Link?

This is the best I got:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=184774&start=91

Otherwise, just search "rayiner" and I'm sure something good will come up.

M458 wrote:Alright, so I applied to NU ED before I got my December re-take score back and got in. I was thrilled...until I saw my score in January (176). Along with my GPA (3.9x) and URM status (I asked a few times here and the consensus was mixed whether I'd be considered a URM since I'm Mexican and a non-resident, but I did do undergrad here in the US), I am kind of looking at my ED and thinking I might've goofed. Especially reading about how much of a "sure thing" HYS are.

Thing is, I WANT to end up in Chicago...and I can't really do anything much at this point, right (I withdrew all my applications as the ED agreemet stated and I'm not even sure sitting out a cycle would get me out of ED, not to mention I'd feel so stupid for doing that)? 95% of me is thrilled with this opportunity as NU for almost free is just about perfect for someone wanting to end up in Chicago, but the other 5% of me has this nagging feeling that I gave up a shot at possibly getting into Yale. Basically...can someone just reassure me?! :) I'm not interested in academia and I don't think I can even do clerkships or gov positions b/c of my International status, but if I somehow end up missing out on BigLaw from NU I feel like this is something I'll really, really regret. Responses like "Seriously? Shut up and be happy w/ it." are totally acceptable here.

Yeah you probably fucked up but who cares? You're good.

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20130312
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Re: Full-rides you'd turn down HYS-sticker for (poll included)

Postby 20130312 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:48 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
InGoodFaith wrote:What is this? A substantial number of people would actually turn down a full ride at CCN just to pay full freight at HYS? Y'all are either insane or 0L gunners.


Sticker versus free is a bit much. But HYS= a biglaw job in another market outside of NYC if you want it (assuming you aren't from NYC). Whereas CCN = maybe a biglaw job in NYC. That's a pretty big damn difference. Although again I agree that free versus 250K is pushing it. HYS does need based aid though so the likelihood of you paying sticker there isn't big.

Do you just enjoy arguing for the sake of arguing?

...

If so, law school may be right for you!

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Rahviveh
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Re: Full-rides you'd turn down HYS-sticker for (poll included)

Postby Rahviveh » Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:04 pm

M458 wrote:Alright, so I applied to NU ED before I got my December re-take score back and got in. I was thrilled...until I saw my score in January (176). Along with my GPA (3.9x) and URM status (I asked a few times here and the consensus was mixed whether I'd be considered a URM since I'm Mexican and a non-resident, but I did do undergrad here in the US), I am kind of looking at my ED and thinking I might've goofed. Especially reading about how much of a "sure thing" HYS are.

Thing is, I WANT to end up in Chicago...and I can't really do anything much at this point, right (I withdrew all my applications as the ED agreemet stated and I'm not even sure sitting out a cycle would get me out of ED, not to mention I'd feel so stupid for doing that)? 95% of me is thrilled with this opportunity as NU for almost free is just about perfect for someone wanting to end up in Chicago, but the other 5% of me has this nagging feeling that I gave up a shot at possibly getting into Yale. Basically...can someone just reassure me?! :) I'm not interested in academia and I don't think I can even do clerkships or gov positions b/c of my International status, but if I somehow end up missing out on BigLaw from NU I feel like this is something I'll really, really regret. Responses like "Seriously? Shut up and be happy w/ it." are totally acceptable here.


If i were in you're position, I'd withdraw and re-apply. You're competitive for full-rides at higher-ranked schools than NW.

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moonman157
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Re: Full-rides you'd turn down HYS-sticker for (poll included)

Postby moonman157 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:09 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:
M458 wrote:Alright, so I applied to NU ED before I got my December re-take score back and got in. I was thrilled...until I saw my score in January (176). Along with my GPA (3.9x) and URM status (I asked a few times here and the consensus was mixed whether I'd be considered a URM since I'm Mexican and a non-resident, but I did do undergrad here in the US), I am kind of looking at my ED and thinking I might've goofed. Especially reading about how much of a "sure thing" HYS are.

Thing is, I WANT to end up in Chicago...and I can't really do anything much at this point, right (I withdrew all my applications as the ED agreemet stated and I'm not even sure sitting out a cycle would get me out of ED, not to mention I'd feel so stupid for doing that)? 95% of me is thrilled with this opportunity as NU for almost free is just about perfect for someone wanting to end up in Chicago, but the other 5% of me has this nagging feeling that I gave up a shot at possibly getting into Yale. Basically...can someone just reassure me?! :) I'm not interested in academia and I don't think I can even do clerkships or gov positions b/c of my International status, but if I somehow end up missing out on BigLaw from NU I feel like this is something I'll really, really regret. Responses like "Seriously? Shut up and be happy w/ it." are totally acceptable here.


If i were in you're position, I'd withdraw and re-apply. You're competitive for full-rides at higher-ranked schools than NW.


The only full ride that would probably matter would be Chicago, and is Chicago that much better for the city than NW?

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Rahviveh
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Re: Full-rides you'd turn down HYS-sticker for (poll included)

Postby Rahviveh » Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:11 pm

moonman157 wrote:
ChampagnePapi wrote:
M458 wrote:Alright, so I applied to NU ED before I got my December re-take score back and got in. I was thrilled...until I saw my score in January (176). Along with my GPA (3.9x) and URM status (I asked a few times here and the consensus was mixed whether I'd be considered a URM since I'm Mexican and a non-resident, but I did do undergrad here in the US), I am kind of looking at my ED and thinking I might've goofed. Especially reading about how much of a "sure thing" HYS are.

Thing is, I WANT to end up in Chicago...and I can't really do anything much at this point, right (I withdrew all my applications as the ED agreemet stated and I'm not even sure sitting out a cycle would get me out of ED, not to mention I'd feel so stupid for doing that)? 95% of me is thrilled with this opportunity as NU for almost free is just about perfect for someone wanting to end up in Chicago, but the other 5% of me has this nagging feeling that I gave up a shot at possibly getting into Yale. Basically...can someone just reassure me?! :) I'm not interested in academia and I don't think I can even do clerkships or gov positions b/c of my International status, but if I somehow end up missing out on BigLaw from NU I feel like this is something I'll really, really regret. Responses like "Seriously? Shut up and be happy w/ it." are totally acceptable here.


If i were in you're position, I'd withdraw and re-apply. You're competitive for full-rides at higher-ranked schools than NW.


The only full ride that would probably matter would be Chicago, and is Chicago that much better for the city than NW?


Well I meant I would be re-applying for the chance at HYS, and he'd still probably get full-rides as a fallback plan next year (or at least close to it). UVA is throwing around money likes its nothing. That said, I'm a 0L and don't know what kind of safety net HYS provides if you want Chicago biglaw. Other posters can chime in on that.

M458
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Re: Full-rides you'd turn down HYS-sticker for (poll included)

Postby M458 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:14 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:
If i were in you're position, I'd withdraw and re-apply. You're competitive for full-rides at higher-ranked schools than NW.


Since I'm almost positive I want to do BigLaw in Chicago, the only school (outside of HYS) that I think would put me in a better position to do that is Chicago (and perhaps even that is arguable?). Columbia has better placement, but I don't know if that means it has better placement in Chicago. It would be nice if the scholarship at NU did cover all of tuition...is it worth asking for more money due to the increase in LSAT score? Went from below their median to far above the 75th percentile.

Sitting out a year seems so foolish to me, but reading all these "should I drop-out?" threads and thinking I could end up below median at NU definitely does have me worried to some degree.

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Rahviveh
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Re: Full-rides you'd turn down HYS-sticker for (poll included)

Postby Rahviveh » Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:20 pm

M458 wrote:
ChampagnePapi wrote:
If i were in you're position, I'd withdraw and re-apply. You're competitive for full-rides at higher-ranked schools than NW.


Since I'm almost positive I want to do BigLaw in Chicago, the only school (outside of HYS) that I think would put me in a better position to do that is Chicago (and perhaps even that is arguable?). Columbia has better placement, but I don't know if that means it has better placement in Chicago. It would be nice if the scholarship at NU did cover all of tuition...is it worth asking for more money due to the increase in LSAT score? Went from below their median to far above the 75th percentile.

Sitting out a year seems so foolish to me, but reading all these "should I drop-out?" threads and thinking I could end up below median at NU definitely does have me worried to some degree.


That might be something you can do if you threaten to withdraw and re-apply.

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Skye
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Re: Full-rides you'd turn down HYS-sticker for (poll included)

Postby Skye » Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:25 pm

I was in a similar situation and decided on Penn. Columbia was temping but the NYC COL wasn’t. Logically, (employment wise) if you are going to end up in the same place (ala $160K) isn’t it better to do so without carrying a hefty debt? After all, we’re not talking first class versus coach, we’re talking about a solid discount on your first class ticket. Just saying. ..

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Re: Full-rides you'd turn down HYS-sticker for (poll included)

Postby bluepenguin » Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:36 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:
M458 wrote:Sitting out a year seems so foolish to me, but reading all these "should I drop-out?" threads and thinking I could end up below median at NU definitely does have me worried to some degree.


That might be something you can do if you threaten to withdraw and re-apply.


I don't know if that's such a great idea. Ask for more money at NU if you're committed to going, maybe. Someone who made a binding commitment to a school trying to extort more money from them then breaching their ED contract sounds like the type of story that could quickly get a name passed around to about 13 other law school deans of admissions.

If it were me I'd just plea "change in life plans," beg off the ED, then apply HYSC the following year.

Fitz51
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Re: Full-rides you'd turn down HYS-sticker for (poll included)

Postby Fitz51 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:56 pm

Wormfather wrote:
bluepenguin wrote:
ChampagnePapi wrote:
M458 wrote:Sitting out a year seems so foolish to me, but reading all these "should I drop-out?" threads and thinking I could end up below median at NU definitely does have me worried to some degree.


That might be something you can do if you threaten to withdraw and re-apply.


I don't know if that's such a great idea. Ask for more money at NU if you're committed to going, maybe. Someone who made a binding commitment to a school trying to extort more money from them then breaching their ED contract sounds like the type of story that could quickly get a name passed around to about 13 other law school deans of admissions.

If it were me I'd just plea "change in life plans," beg off the ED, then apply HYSC the following year.


Doesnt NU+ED=Full Ride? What's the point in threatening to withdraw? Ask if you can change your ap to RD and if they say yes, great, if not. Enjoy going to the second best school in Chicago for free.


50k/year, so a little below full ride. He can't beg off the ED and change to RD because he's been accepted already and withdrawn all other apps.

Basically, the question comes down to "Why did I commit to NU?" If it was about NU, then stay put. If it was about the money, then you're probably better off withdrawing and applying next year. I wouldn't send NU an app next cycle, though.




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