Please Look At This Before You Go To Law School

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okiedokie33
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Please Look At This Before You Go To Law School

Postby okiedokie33 » Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:33 am

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub ... d3c&gid=11

I'm sure its been posted somewhere already but I just saw it. When people tell you there are no legal jobs, they aren't lying. LOOK

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ScottRiqui
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Re: Please Look At This Before You Go To Law School

Postby ScottRiqui » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:36 am

I'm not seeing how you're getting "no legal jobs" from that chart. After a quick glance at the T1 and T2 pages, it looks like at least 75-85% of most classes are ending up with full-time employment. And some of the "no full-time employment" are going to be those who decided to continue their education, or to take some time off first.

Sure, it looks worse if your attitude is "biglaw or killself", but at some point, you have to decide how much faith you have in yourself and your abilities - guarantees are few and far between in life.

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Robespierre
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Re: Please Look At This Before You Go To Law School

Postby Robespierre » Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:44 am

It would be more persuasive to post the latest (Class of '11) stats.

PanhandleShitlaw
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Re: Please Look At This Before You Go To Law School

Postby PanhandleShitlaw » Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:00 am

I know first hand that graph understates how bad things are.

Pay special attention to the 50+/Fed/PI/Gov stat that weeds out all the bad outcomes like
* practicing solo (which is bad if true, but more often than not it's just another way of saying "unemployed but with business cards")
* practicing in a small shitlaw firm (these places have awful compensation, often "eat what you kill" type arrangements. I've been in this type of arrangement and it's roughly comparable to unemployment
But leaves in survivable bad outcomes like:
* work for PD's office, making 30-40k a year, but at least it's a real job. You will get mentoring, health care, a steady paycheck and trial experience.
* working at a state clerkship
* working for an agency as a legal drone

Notice how few people are even getting a survivable bad outcome?

Kurst
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Re: Please Look At This Before You Go To Law School

Postby Kurst » Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:31 am

PanhandleShitlaw wrote:Pay special attention to the 50+/Fed/PI/Gov stat that weeds out all the bad outcomes

Law school funded positions are often filed under "Public Interest" and "Government." The only unequivocally good outcomes in the ABA survey are employment in a firm with 51+ lawyers or a federal clerkship.

Image

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dextermorgan
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Re: Please Look At This Before You Go To Law School

Postby dextermorgan » Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:39 am

PanhandleShitlaw wrote:But leaves in survivable bad outcomes like:
* work for PD's office, making 30-40k a year, but at least it's a real job. You will get mentoring, health care, a steady paycheck and trial experience.
* working at a state clerkship
* working for an agency as a legal drone

Notice how few people are even getting a survivable bad outcome?

What exactly makes those bad outcomes? The pay?

rad lulz
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Re: Please Look At This Before You Go To Law School

Postby rad lulz » Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:35 am

dextermorgan wrote:
PanhandleShitlaw wrote:But leaves in survivable bad outcomes like:
* work for PD's office, making 30-40k a year, but at least it's a real job. You will get mentoring, health care, a steady paycheck and trial experience.
* working at a state clerkship
* working for an agency as a legal drone

Notice how few people are even getting a survivable bad outcome?

What exactly makes those bad outcomes? The pay?

PD - if you're committe to public interest, not bad. Lots of good trial exp. However, with large debt, you're gonna have to rely on PSLF. Also, no one stays forever, and the "exit options" to solo practice or small crim firms or plaintiffs firms really require some business acumen.

State clerkship - varying degrees of worthwhile. Appellate? Probably worth it. You can probably parlay it into something. Hopefully. State trial depending on where it is varies from worthwhile, to almost completely worthless.

Agency - depends on agency. Federal? Highly prized; pays dece. State? Depends on the agency.

rad lulz
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Re: Please Look At This Before You Go To Law School

Postby rad lulz » Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:40 am

ScottRiqui wrote: And some of the "no full-time employment" are going to be those who decided to continue their education, or to take some time off first.

With the possible exception of certain tax LLMs...

LOL, just LOL

sadsituationJD
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Re: Please Look At This Before You Go To Law School

Postby sadsituationJD » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:12 am

Things are so bad that the temp agencies are now posting on NJ cragislist trying to get people to migrate to Charlotte, NC for $25 an hour doc review gigs:


--LinkRemoved--


The death of doc review has really murdered employment stats for the NYC toilets like 'Bozo, Brooklyn, Pace, NYLS etc. 5 years ago a huge percentage of the class from these diploma mills ended up in NYC temporary doc review, and back then it paid 35-40 an hour + OT. Now those positions are long gone, and if you want work you gotta go to N. Carolina and take $25 an hour flat.

If a gig like that is your only "offer," it's probably time to just admit lawschool was a mistake and try to rebuild and get into another field. Ditto for the clowns hoping to start "solo practices" - the failure rate for solo attorneys is probably north of 90% nowadays. How are you going to get paying clients when 1/2 the U.S doesn't have $500 in savings?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/2 ... 03285.html

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ScottRiqui
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Re: Please Look At This Before You Go To Law School

Postby ScottRiqui » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:12 am

rad lulz wrote:
ScottRiqui wrote: And some of the "no full-time employment" are going to be those who decided to continue their education, or to take some time off first.

With the possible exception of certain tax LLMs...

LOL, just LOL


Oh, I agree - I was just pointing out that some non-zero number of the "unemployed" will be there by choice for one reason or another.

On a different note - In the ABA report, is "Business and Industry" generally an undesirable outcome, or are most of those jobs pretty legit?

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dextermorgan
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Re: Please Look At This Before You Go To Law School

Postby dextermorgan » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:14 am

rad lulz wrote:
dextermorgan wrote:
PanhandleShitlaw wrote:But leaves in survivable bad outcomes like:
* work for PD's office, making 30-40k a year, but at least it's a real job. You will get mentoring, health care, a steady paycheck and trial experience.
* working at a state clerkship
* working for an agency as a legal drone

Notice how few people are even getting a survivable bad outcome?

What exactly makes those bad outcomes? The pay?

PD - if you're committe to public interest, not bad. Lots of good trial exp. However, with large debt, you're gonna have to rely on PSLF. Also, no one stays forever, and the "exit options" to solo practice or small crim firms or plaintiffs firms really require some business acumen.

State clerkship - varying degrees of worthwhile. Appellate? Probably worth it. You can probably parlay it into something. Hopefully. State trial depending on where it is varies from worthwhile, to almost completely worthless.

Agency - depends on agency. Federal? Highly prized; pays dece. State? Depends on the agency.

Exactly my point. There are people who would kill for these positions, and some (like PD) that people are specifically gunning for. They aren't necessarily bad outcomes, unless you are one of those morons that went to a shitty law school expecting big law.

okiedokie33
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Re: Please Look At This Before You Go To Law School

Postby okiedokie33 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:00 pm


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vanwinkle
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Re: Please Look At This Before You Go To Law School

Postby vanwinkle » Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:12 pm

rad lulz wrote:PD - if you're committe to public interest, not bad. Lots of good trial exp. However, with large debt, you're gonna have to rely on PSLF. Also, no one stays forever, and the "exit options" to solo practice or small crim firms or plaintiffs firms really require some business acumen.

LOL, what?

Half the reason PD jobs are so hard to come by is that many of them do stay forever. The kind of person who really wants to be a PD will stay a PD as long as they can. As a law student, I interned in multiple PD offices where I got to know folks who'd been there 20 years. The longer they stay, the less often they make room for new guys.

From what I've gathered, this is even worse due to the current economy. PD jobs are seen as largely stable since there's a legal obligation for governments to provide them; quite a few current PDs are afraid that if they go elsewhere they'll be giving up stability for a job that could go away soon, and quite a few people who wouldn't do PD before really want it for the stability, at least until the economy improves. Those people will probably leave when better comes along, if they can land a PD gig in the first place, but for now what it means is that things are tighter than ever.

rad lulz
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Re: Please Look At This Before You Go To Law School

Postby rad lulz » Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:41 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
rad lulz wrote:PD - if you're committe to public interest, not bad. Lots of good trial exp. However, with large debt, you're gonna have to rely on PSLF. Also, no one stays forever, and the "exit options" to solo practice or small crim firms or plaintiffs firms really require some business acumen.

LOL, what?

Half the reason PD jobs are so hard to come by is that many of them do stay forever. The kind of person who really wants to be a PD will stay a PD as long as they can. As a law student, I interned in multiple PD offices where I got to know folks who'd been there 20 years. The longer they stay, the less often they make room for new guys.

From what I've gathered, this is even worse due to the current economy. PD jobs are seen as largely stable since there's a legal obligation for governments to provide them; quite a few current PDs are afraid that if they go elsewhere they'll be giving up stability for a job that could go away soon, and quite a few people who wouldn't do PD before really want it for the stability, at least until the economy improves. Those people will probably leave when better comes along, if they can land a PD gig in the first place, but for now what it means is that things are tighter than ever.

"Nobody" was pretty obvious hyperbole. Turnover is still pretty high in the offices in FL I'm familiar with. Even the people that are sticking around because of the bad economy want to leave eventually. Last PD office I interviewed at there were VERY few who had made a career out of it, which goes along with the point I was trying to make in my poast. Interestingly enough, last round of layoffs that office did were all FIFO.

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: Please Look At This Before You Go To Law School

Postby XxSpyKEx » Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:55 pm

rad lulz wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
rad lulz wrote:PD - if you're committe to public interest, not bad. Lots of good trial exp. However, with large debt, you're gonna have to rely on PSLF. Also, no one stays forever, and the "exit options" to solo practice or small crim firms or plaintiffs firms really require some business acumen.

LOL, what?

Half the reason PD jobs are so hard to come by is that many of them do stay forever. The kind of person who really wants to be a PD will stay a PD as long as they can. As a law student, I interned in multiple PD offices where I got to know folks who'd been there 20 years. The longer they stay, the less often they make room for new guys.

From what I've gathered, this is even worse due to the current economy. PD jobs are seen as largely stable since there's a legal obligation for governments to provide them; quite a few current PDs are afraid that if they go elsewhere they'll be giving up stability for a job that could go away soon, and quite a few people who wouldn't do PD before really want it for the stability, at least until the economy improves. Those people will probably leave when better comes along, if they can land a PD gig in the first place, but for now what it means is that things are tighter than ever.

"Nobody" was pretty obvious hyperbole. Turnover is still pretty high in the offices in FL I'm familiar with. Even the people that are sticking around because of the bad economy want to leave eventually. Last PD office I interviewed at there were VERY few who had made a career out of it, which goes along with the point I was trying to make in my poast. Interestingly enough, last round of layoffs that office did were all FIFO.


I think high long-term turnover is fairly typical throughout the public interest realm. Long hours, low pay, and a good amount of stress if fairly typical (obviously not the hours and stress of biglaw, but it's still a lot, given that you're going to be living quite poorly in most cities). The plus side is that you're helping people who really need it. But I think for most people the cons tend to wear on them, and eventually they leave. I'd be surprised if more than 20% of people who go into a public defender's office right out of law school are still there after 10 years.

sadsituationJD
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Re: Please Look At This Before You Go To Law School

Postby sadsituationJD » Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:04 pm

This project is funny- paras get 23 an hour and admitted JD's get 27 an hour:


Hudson Legal is currently staffing the following position:
Paralegals or Non-admitted Law School Graduates for legal data entry

Start date: Wednesday, December 5, 2012
Rate: $23 (for paralegals); $27 per hour (for JDs)
Duration: approximately 1 week
Hours: regular business hours – 40 hours per week
Location: Ronkonkama (Long Island), New York
Requirements: Excellent data entry skills with attention to detail


Thus, the current market value of a JD vs. a para is $4 an hour. Show me the doctors making $4 an hour more than nurses, or the dentists making $4 an hour more than the hygenists, or the chefs making $4 an hour more than the dishwashers.

Only in law are the educated "professionals" paid virtually the same (or sometimes less) than the support staff. What a lovely industry.

SportsFan
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Re: Please Look At This Before You Go To Law School

Postby SportsFan » Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:11 pm

ScottRiqui wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
ScottRiqui wrote: And some of the "no full-time employment" are going to be those who decided to continue their education, or to take some time off first.

With the possible exception of certain tax LLMs...

LOL, just LOL


Oh, I agree - I was just pointing out that some non-zero number of the "unemployed" will be there by choice for one reason or another.

On a different note - In the ABA report, is "Business and Industry" generally an undesirable outcome, or are most of those jobs pretty legit?

Depends. At schools with good business schools (Harvard, Penn, Northwestern, etc.) it's generally desirable stuff, but its gonna be mostly undesirable almost anywhere else. Just as an example, someone in my section at my school (Penn) is getting his MBA too and has never had any intention of working in law.

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: Please Look At This Before You Go To Law School

Postby XxSpyKEx » Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:43 pm

sadsituationJD wrote:This project is funny- paras get 23 an hour and admitted JD's get 27 an hour:


Hudson Legal is currently staffing the following position:
Paralegals or Non-admitted Law School Graduates for legal data entry

Start date: Wednesday, December 5, 2012
Rate: $23 (for paralegals); $27 per hour (for JDs)
Duration: approximately 1 week
Hours: regular business hours – 40 hours per week
Location: Ronkonkama (Long Island), New York
Requirements: Excellent data entry skills with attention to detail


Thus, the current market value of a JD vs. a para is $4 an hour. Show me the doctors making $4 an hour more than nurses, or the dentists making $4 an hour more than the hygenists, or the chefs making $4 an hour more than the dishwashers.

Only in law are the educated "professionals" paid virtually the same (or sometimes less) than the support staff. What a lovely industry.


So much fail in just one post.

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20130312
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Re: Please Look At This Before You Go To Law School

Postby 20130312 » Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:30 am

Non-admitted = hasn't passed the bar

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rouser
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Re: Please Look At This Before You Go To Law School

Postby rouser » Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:41 am

prospects in this field I think are based almost entirely on how well businesses are doing/have been doing last couple yrs. so yeah, not looking fantastic. is there any way that prospects could increase while economy is still garbage? I just don't see how that could happen.

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JCougar
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Re: Please Look At This Before You Go To Law School

Postby JCougar » Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:03 am

InGoodFaith wrote:Non-admitted = hasn't passed the bar


Isn't that still a tacit admission that the "skills" taught to you in law school aren't worth crap? If law school made you such a better analyst of information, or a better "thinker," people would want to pay a premium for those skills, whether or not they passed the bar.

As an aside, I do think you get some training in law school, but it's not the kind of training people doing doc review or other kinds of shitlaw really need. It's only slightly more useful for more prestigious legal work. And even the stuff you do get "trained" on is done in possibly the most inefficient way imaginable. The only thing I've really noticed in myself is that I am a faster reader and a better writer, but not so much better/faster that the three years of pointless makework, "Socratic method," "case method," and near-zero feedback haven't been an extreme waste of my time.

A lot of law is "cut n' paste." Firms have their motion templates and prior briefs all saved up, and usually are dealing with the exact same legal issues time and time again. Biglaw isn't really immune to this, either. All you do in some areas of law is cut n' paste the same old motion and change a few lines regarding facts and names, etc. You do almost zero legal research, and a lot of shitlaw firms can't even afford Westlaw, so they hire interns just to have them use their school Westlaw account so they can get access to the "Legal Practice Series" treatises, etc. The only substantial skills you need at these firms are networking and sales skills to bring in business.

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rouser
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Re: Please Look At This Before You Go To Law School

Postby rouser » Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:27 am

JCougar wrote:they hire interns just to have them use their school Westlaw account so they can get access to the "Legal Practice Series" treatises, etc.

lol sneaky but seems like it could be a selling point for someone needing work

rad lulz
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Re: Please Look At This Before You Go To Law School

Postby rad lulz » Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:24 am

rouser wrote:
JCougar wrote:they hire interns just to have them use their school Westlaw account so they can get access to the "Legal Practice Series" treatises, etc.

lol sneaky but seems like it could be a selling point for someone needing work

Except that it's unethical and practically Westlaw can bone the shit out of you.

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: Please Look At This Before You Go To Law School

Postby XxSpyKEx » Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:35 am

JCougar wrote:
InGoodFaith wrote:Non-admitted = hasn't passed the bar


Isn't that still a tacit admission that the "skills" taught to you in law school aren't worth crap? If law school made you such a better analyst of information, or a better "thinker," people would want to pay a premium for those skills, whether or not they passed the bar.


The problem is that the job posting isn't looking for a better "thinker." It's looking for someone to do basic data entry. The posting even makes it clear that the job does not require a JD (it says they are looking to hire a paralegal OR a recent law school grad for short term work). The quoted is like saying Starbucks should pay you more solely because you have a JD, and if they don't, it's a "tacit admission that the 'skills' taught to you in law school aren't worth crap." With respect to the recent law school grad, it's pretty clear that this is job is set up as short term work while awaiting bar results for someone who just needs a little extra cash prior to finding full time legal employment. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that what they teach you in law school is worth $250k, or that you learn much in law school at all. It's just pointing out that sadsituationjd's and your arguments are illogical.

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JCougar
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Re: Please Look At This Before You Go To Law School

Postby JCougar » Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:48 pm

XxSpyKEx wrote:The problem is that the job posting isn't looking for a better "thinker." It's looking for someone to do basic data entry. The posting even makes it clear that the job does not require a JD (it says they are looking to hire a paralegal OR a recent law school grad for short term work). The quoted is like saying Starbucks should pay you more solely because you have a JD, and if they don't, it's a "tacit admission that the 'skills' taught to you in law school aren't worth crap." With respect to the recent law school grad, it's pretty clear that this is job is set up as short term work while awaiting bar results for someone who just needs a little extra cash prior to finding full time legal employment. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that what they teach you in law school is worth $250k, or that you learn much in law school at all. It's just pointing out that sadsituationjd's and your arguments are illogical.


Except it isn't Starbucks, it's actually legal work that they want done, even though it's base-level legal work.

I understand your overall point about that specific job, though. But I don't think many of these people's opportunities are going to get much better once they do pass the bar.




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