Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

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Aqualibrium
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Re: Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

Postby Aqualibrium » Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:23 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
Aqualibrium wrote:Because I'd say the tangible and intangible benefits of attending HYS are generally going to be worthy of taking on the debt.

You think those credentials help someone more easily land a second job? It seems like that'd be the only way to justify it since your concern is more about staying in BigLaw than getting it. I do agree that staying in BigLaw is an underrated obstacle, although I think most people who do get it and leave after a few years will ultimately make more money than they would have otherwise.


I've talked as many people as I can count on my fingers who have gotten it and left it (read got pushed out) and none of them are making more money now than they were before. YMMV of course.

I think going to HYS means something regardless of what your first or second or third job ends up being. The esteem those institutions are regarded with as a general matter, the doors they open, and the people who you count as peers are well worth the debt.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:26 pm

Aqualibrium wrote:I've talked as many people as I can count on my fingers who have gotten it and left it (read got pushed out) and none of them are making more money now than they were before. YMMV of course.

I just meant before law school.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

Postby BruceWayne » Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:39 pm

Lawquacious wrote:Yeah, maybe I should have just left it as partial-scholly for T14 and left out the T10 comment (although I recognize you still wouldn't agree), but I think you are disregarding the fact that attending Emory even with super-scholly is also scary unless OP is set on practicing in GA. There is still a massive opportunity cost of attending, and there is in fact a pretty massive gulf between even the lower T14 and Emory.

Also, for the record (but as a side note) there is a very significant difference between a T10 like PENN and schools in the lower T-14.


Not from the GPA charts that FlightoftheEarls and a few others were discussing. To be quite honest, it's actually kind of remarkable how similar the rank cutoffs are for firms across the non HYS top 14. It's to a point where you really start to realize how much things like the market focus of a school's students, as well as work experience, affects placement. A lot of 0Ls and 1Ls don't really understand that rank within the top 14 (excluding HYS and for NYC CCN) really isn't the main determinant of a school's placement.

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Lawquacious
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Re: Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

Postby Lawquacious » Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:15 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:Yeah, maybe I should have just left it as partial-scholly for T14 and left out the T10 comment (although I recognize you still wouldn't agree), but I think you are disregarding the fact that attending Emory even with super-scholly is also scary unless OP is set on practicing in GA. There is still a massive opportunity cost of attending, and there is in fact a pretty massive gulf between even the lower T14 and Emory.

Also, for the record (but as a side note) there is a very significant difference between a T10 like PENN and schools in the lower T-14.


Not from the GPA charts that FlightoftheEarls and a few others were discussing. To be quite honest, it's actually kind of remarkable how similar the rank cutoffs are for firms across the non HYS top 14. It's to a point where you really start to realize how much things like the market focus of a school's students, as well as work experience, affects placement. A lot of 0Ls and 1Ls don't really understand that rank within the top 14 (excluding HYS and for NYC CCN) really isn't the main determinant of a school's placement.



No, I was talking about from a job placement perspective. And yes, in fact there is a big difference between PENN and lower T14. Also, 0Ls and 1Ls can have good general info that they are basing comments on, even if sometimes they don't understand all of the realities of the job market. Likewise students not actually attending a "T14"(which I agree is itself a suspect classification, to the extent you are saying that) can have legitimate information about the T14 to base opinions on. I wouldn't weigh (speculated) personal information about a poster so heavily in evaluating comments, especially when there may be more direct ways of discrediting what they are saying.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

Postby BruceWayne » Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:32 pm

Lawquacious wrote:No, I was talking about from a job placement perspective. And yes, in fact there is a big difference between PENN and lower T14. Also, 0Ls and 1Ls can have good general info that they are basing comments on, even if sometimes they don't understand all of the realities of the job market. Likewise students not actually attending a "T14"(which I agree is itself a suspect classification, to the extent you are saying that) can have legitimate information about the T14 to base opinions on. I wouldn't weigh (speculated) personal information about a poster so heavily in evaluating comments, especially when there may be more direct ways of discrediting what they are saying.


All I'm talking about is job placement. To really understand the difference in placement between the schools for firms (i.e. how deep into the class firms go at one school vs. the other) you need the GPA charts/hiring info that the schools collect. Unfortunately because the schools desperately don't want outsiders knowing that information, an 0L doesn't have access to it. I.e. they don't know what they're talking about unless someone is kind enough to release that info to them. 1Ls can get it but often don't worry about it until after all of their 1L grades come out. Basically not only is 0L status a legitimate way of discrediting someone on legal employment based comments, it's actually the best way. 2Ls and up have seen the actual hiring data. The vast majority of 0Ls haven't.

And sorry, but the GPA info for Cornell (a supposed "lower" top 14) and Penn apparently shows the same ranking cutoffs for a wide number of firms. In addition, UVA/Michigan and NU (which I'm assuming is a "lower" top 14 based on the last US News Rankings I saw--but may not be now. I honestly don't pay attention to them because of how unimportant they are for differentiating between the top 14 but that's what posters generally use for rankings when they say things like "lower" top 14) have the same ranking cutoff for the vast majority of firms for which both sets of schools collect data.

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Lawquacious
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Re: Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

Postby Lawquacious » Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:50 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:No, I was talking about from a job placement perspective. And yes, in fact there is a big difference between PENN and lower T14. Also, 0Ls and 1Ls can have good general info that they are basing comments on, even if sometimes they don't understand all of the realities of the job market. Likewise students not actually attending a "T14"(which I agree is itself a suspect classification, to the extent you are saying that) can have legitimate information about the T14 to base opinions on. I wouldn't weigh (speculated) personal information about a poster so heavily in evaluating comments, especially when there may be more direct ways of discrediting what they are saying.


All I'm talking about is job placement. To really understand the difference in placement between the schools for firms (i.e. how deep into the class firms go at one school vs. the other) you need the GPA charts/hiring info that the schools collect. Unfortunately because the schools desperately don't want outsiders knowing that information, an 0L doesn't have access to it. I.e. they don't know what they're talking about unless someone is kind enough to release that info to them. 1Ls can get it but often don't worry about it until after all of their 1L grades come out. Basically not only is 0L status a legitimate way of discrediting someone on legal employment based comments, it's actually the best way. 2Ls and up have seen the actual hiring data. The vast majority of 0Ls haven't.

And sorry, but the GPA info for Cornell (a supposed "lower" top 14) and Penn apparently shows the same ranking cutoffs for a wide number of firms. In addition, UVA/Michigan and NU (which I'm assuming is a "lower" top 14 based on the last US News Rankings I saw--but may not be now. I honestly don't pay attention to them because of how unimportant they are for differentiating between the top 14 but that's what posters generally use for rankings when they say things like "lower" top 14) have the same ranking cutoff for the vast majority of firms for which both sets of schools collect data.



Yeah, I see what you mean re: GPA--you were referring to hiring cutoffs; I noticed that earlier but forgot, so some of my comments were misplaced.

But that is just one metric of hiring, and overall placement stats, including quality of firms placed into, is arguably a better measure (if accounting for clerkships), in which case I think there are generally significant distinctions between PENN and lower T-14, even if you can find limited--such as year-to-year--distinctions, or point to particular metrics--such as the firm GPA-cutoffs you referenced--where there may seem to be little-or-no difference. Even then it may be true that the distinctions between the schools aren't always strikingly obvious, but I believe that they are there.

The differences may not be as great as all the hype re: detailed ranking schemes (which I think is one of your points), but saying that there is not a significant difference between Penn and lower-T14 is inaccurate IMO, and I think it is ironic given how strongly you believe there is a massive gulf between CCN and HYS, even though raw numbers data doesn't always make this immediately obvious (I agree there is a gap there and would be hard pressed to argue otherwise, but I don't think it is the gaping hole you think it is and I also disagree that there is no distinction between Penn and lower-T14 as indicated here).

On the 0L/1L note, I agree in some regards these posters will not generally have the insight on employment topics that 2L/3Ls will, but I disagree that what is basically an ad hominem attack is ever ideal in terms of discrediting someone, except perhaps in cases where moral authority on a topic is a necessary condition of what is being asserted. And most employment stats are in fact widely made available, even if it is true that 0Ls and 1Ls can't understand how grim it is for some of us at top schools right now.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

Postby BruceWayne » Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:13 pm

Lawquacious wrote:Yeah, I see what you mean re: GPA--you were referring to hiring cutoffs; I noticed that earlier but forgot, so some of my comments were misplaced.

But that is just one metric of hiring, and overall placement stats, including quality of firms placed into, is arguably a better measure (if accounting for clerkships), in which case I think there are generally significant distinctions between PENN and lower T-14, even if you can find limited--such as year-to-year--distinctions, or point to particular metrics--such as the firm GPA-cutoffs you referenced--where there may seem to be little-or-no difference. Even then it may be true that the distinctions between the schools aren't always strikingly obvious, but I believe that they are there.

The differences may not be as great as all the hype re: detailed ranking schemes (which I think is one of your points), but saying that there is not a significant difference between Penn and lower-T14 is inaccurate IMO, and I think it is ironic given how strongly you believe there is a massive gulf between CCN and HYS, even though raw numbers data doesn't always make this immediately obvious (I agree there is a gap there and would be hard pressed to argue otherwise, but I don't think it is the gaping hole you think it is and I also disagree that there is no distinction between Penn and lower-T14 as indicated here).

On the 0L/1L note, I agree in some regards these posters will not generally have the insight on employment topics that 2L/3Ls will, but I disagree that what is basically an ad hominem attack is ever ideal in terms of discrediting someone, except perhaps in cases where moral authority on a topic is a necessary condition of what is being asserted. And most employment stats are in fact widely made available, even if it is true that 0Ls and 1Ls can't understand how grim it is for some of us at top schools right now.



1. You are right that there is a difference in the "quality of firms" placement between say Penn and "lower" top 14s. But it's like I was saying earlier--the differences come into play for the students who land above the median. So yeah Davis Polk likes hiring from Penn more than GULC in the sense that they hire way more often from top 1/3 at Penn than they do top 1/3 at GULC. But the issue is this; that kind of difference shouldn't factor into someone's decision making process when they're talking going top 14 at sticker vs. strong regional in region they want to work for free. How Penn students at top 1/3 do vs. Cornell students at top 1/3 do at Simpson Thatcher is something you think about when you're looking at half scholly Cornell vs. 1/3 scholly NYU. You don't take on 250K debt for a better chance at landing a job at a firm that won't hire you from either school if you land below median. But again because so many people have this mentality of "I won't land below median" that's the sort of decision making process they make. They say "hmm I won't land below median regardless, but if I land in the top 1/3 at NYU I can get Simpson Thatcher whereas if I 'and top 1/3 at NU I will have to work at Mayer Brown!" Again, not the sort of decisionmaking you should be doing unless we're talking comparable debt loads. I'm not going to say anything about your comment about there being other metrics than how deep into a class employers are willing to go for evaluating placement. Because, honestly, I don't know what you're talking about. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something because really that should be the only consideration. It determine whether they hire you or not.

2. Unfortunately, HYS are a different ballgame. There really is a massive gulf between them and the rest of the top 14 in regards to how deep employers are willing to go. Now let me add the caveat of maybe what I think is a massive gulf and what you think is a massive gulf are 2 different things. Here's the sucky reality for those of us that attend top 14's other than HYS: if you're below median at HYS with ties to a particular market you will probably get a big firm job in that market. If you attend any other top 14 as a below median student and have ties to a market, you probably won't get a big firm job in that market. To me being below median at one school vs. another likely determining whether I will get the chance to work at a big firm in my home market is a massive gulf. And to clarify what I'm saying I'll provide some hypos. Take a student from SF who is below median at Harvard and wants to go to a big firm in SF. He/she will probably land a biglaw firm in SF if they hustle. Now take a below median student at NYU from SF; he she is highly likely to strike out with SF firms and not get a job in that market. Take a student from Georgia who attends Stanford and wants to work in a biglaw firm in Atlanta. Now take one from Atlanta who attends Columbia, but is below median and wants the same thing. He/She will probably strike out in Atlanta.

Now I know because a lot of people on here only care about whether they can get a firm job in NYC that isn't important. But even if that's all you care about your chances go from being very high to up in the air once you go from HYS to a lower ranked top 14. That's a very different set of circumstances than what happens when you attend Penn over NYU or Duke over Penn. The latter aren't "job vs. no job". Whereas the HYS vs. the rest of the top 14 is highly likely to be.

FTR: None of what I said about people being 1Ls or 0Ls was meant as an insult. I said that because those groups of people generally haven't seen the GPA hiring data and have not interviewed for jobs yet.

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Lawquacious
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Re: Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

Postby Lawquacious » Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:29 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:Yeah, I see what you mean re: GPA--you were referring to hiring cutoffs; I noticed that earlier but forgot, so some of my comments were misplaced.

But that is just one metric of hiring, and overall placement stats, including quality of firms placed into, is arguably a better measure (if accounting for clerkships), in which case I think there are generally significant distinctions between PENN and lower T-14, even if you can find limited--such as year-to-year--distinctions, or point to particular metrics--such as the firm GPA-cutoffs you referenced--where there may seem to be little-or-no difference. Even then it may be true that the distinctions between the schools aren't always strikingly obvious, but I believe that they are there.

The differences may not be as great as all the hype re: detailed ranking schemes (which I think is one of your points), but saying that there is not a significant difference between Penn and lower-T14 is inaccurate IMO, and I think it is ironic given how strongly you believe there is a massive gulf between CCN and HYS, even though raw numbers data doesn't always make this immediately obvious (I agree there is a gap there and would be hard pressed to argue otherwise, but I don't think it is the gaping hole you think it is and I also disagree that there is no distinction between Penn and lower-T14 as indicated here).

On the 0L/1L note, I agree in some regards these posters will not generally have the insight on employment topics that 2L/3Ls will, but I disagree that what is basically an ad hominem attack is ever ideal in terms of discrediting someone, except perhaps in cases where moral authority on a topic is a necessary condition of what is being asserted. And most employment stats are in fact widely made available, even if it is true that 0Ls and 1Ls can't understand how grim it is for some of us at top schools right now.



1. You are right that there is a difference in the "quality of firms" placement between say Penn and "lower" top 14s. But it's like I was saying earlier--the differences come into play for the students who land above the median. So yeah Davis Polk likes hiring from Penn more than GULC in the sense that they hire way more often from top 1/3 at Penn than they do top 1/3 at GULC. But the issue is this; that kind of difference shouldn't factor into someone's decision making process when they're talking going top 14 at sticker vs. strong regional in region they want to work for free. How Penn students at top 1/3 do vs. Cornell students at top 1/3 do at Simpson Thatcher is something you think about when you're looking at half scholly Cornell vs. 1/3 scholly NYU. You don't take on 250K debt for a better chance at landing a job at a firm that won't hire you from either school if you land below median. But again because so many people have this mentality of "I won't land below median" that's the sort of decision making process they make. They say "hmm I won't land below median regardless, but if I land in the top 1/3 at NYU I can get Simpson Thatcher whereas if I 'and top 1/3 at NU I will have to work at Mayer Brown!" Again, not the sort of decisionmaking you should be doing unless we're talking comparable debt loads. I'm not going to say anything about your comment about there being other metrics than how deep into a class employers are willing to go for evaluating placement. Because, honestly, I don't know what you're talking about. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something because really that should be the only consideration. It determine whether they hire you or not.

2. Unfortunately, HYS are a different ballgame. There really is a massive gulf between them and the rest of the top 14 in regards to how deep employers are willing to go. Now let me add the caveat of maybe what I think is a massive gulf and what you think is a massive gulf are 2 different things. Here's the sucky reality for those of us that attend top 14's other than HYS: if you're below median at HYS with ties to a particular market you will probably get a big firm job in that market. If you attend any other top 14 as a below median student and have ties to a market, you probably won't get a big firm job in that market. To me being below median at one school vs. another likely determining whether I will get the chance to work at a big firm in my home market is a massive gulf. And to clarify what I'm saying I'll provide some hypos. Take a student from SF who is below median at Harvard and wants to go to a big firm in SF. He/she will probably land a biglaw firm in SF if they hustle. Now take a below median student at NYU from SF; he she is highly likely to strike out with SF firms and not get a job in that market. Take a student from Georgia who attends Stanford and wants to work in a biglaw firm in Atlanta. Now take one from Atlanta who attends Columbia, but is below median and wants the same thing. He/She will probably strike out in Atlanta.

Now I know because a lot of people on here only care about whether they can get a firm job in NYC that isn't important. But even if that's all you care about your chances go from being very high to up in the air once you go from HYS to a lower ranked top 14. That's a very different set of circumstances than what happens when you attend Penn over NYU or Duke over Penn. The latter aren't "job vs. no job". Whereas the HYS vs. the rest of the top 14 is highly likely to be.

FTR: None of what I said about people being 1Ls or 0Ls was meant as an insult. I said that because those groups of people generally haven't seen the GPA hiring data and have not interviewed for jobs yet.



Some good points, although I think by focusing on all the risks of T14 schools you are discounting the risk of going to Emory if OP's goal is not to stay in GA. Even if it isn't, I do think Emory with full-ride plus beats T14 unless substantial discount (though not necessarily more than half depending on which T14 or T10 we are talking about). Emory is simply in a way different league, even if it is true that many T14 kids are struggling.

Re: HYS, yes those are the best law schools, but the extent that they are venerated here and considered in an entirely different class (at least re: H and S) is not fully consistent with the fact that some of those kids struggle to get the jobs they want too. None of those are 100% golden tickets IMO, except perhaps Yale. Even then there are plenty of ways to eff up a career.

Re: the GPA cut-offs, I don't know exactly the data you are referring to, but

(a) not all firms have hard floors;

(b) this is focusing only on biglaw, which is not the end-all-be-all of employment, and T14 will generally give much better secondary options than Emory, even if these take blood, sweat, and tears to get, especially for someone looking outside of GA;

(c) just because minimums are stated to be the same at two schools (or are) doesn't mean that one school won't provide better chances than the other at that firm;

(d) although the choice analysis shouldn't assume being above median when looking at T14 (which is a risk for prospective students) it also shouldn't assume below--the expected value equation involves both percentage of those who get biglaw and percentage who don't, and just because some end up in the no biglaw category doesn't mean it was a horrible risk for them to take in the first place;

(e) getting back to some of the nuances between T14 schools, any analysis that says a person below median is necessarily in trouble re: biglaw at PENN is probably not accurate, even if you could statistically say this fairly easily of GULC. The basic median analysis you are using is less effective when applied to some of the T14 schools than with others.

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Re: Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

Postby albanach » Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:06 pm

The thread seems to have lost track of the OP saying he had an interest in IP.

The OP may like to pursue biglaw first, but that's a real long-shot at Emory and, as has been pointed out, in no way guaranteed at many other schools.

PI positions are likely to be available from either school, especially if the OP focuses on public interest from their 1L year. Once again, I think that makes consideration of IBR and LRAP very important to the cost benefit analysis.

The Emory LRAP scheme is not great. OP could easily find repayments on $65k of Emory cost of living debt are more than they would repay on four times more debt from a T14 school.

I'd also be looking to see how many fellowships Emory can offer. I have a feeling more and more of the good PI positions are going to start expecting you to be paying your own way for the first year if only because T14 schools have started a bit of a precedent here in trying to keep their graduates employed.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:42 am

While it is true that the OP wants PI, the majority of the people who enter law school for the purpose of PI would take a high paying firm job if one was to be offered to them. As such, most prospective students should weigh high paying desirable outcomes as well. In addition, the % of the class that land high paying jobs could arguably be considered to be a proxy for strength in PI, considering that high profile employers are interested in graduates.

I think the thread is shifting away from the point as well, but for a different reason. For the purpose of the OP, it doesn't matter the relative value of various T14s. While HYS is the gold standard, the relative weight of the others is an entirely different discussion that has been tackled in many threads. The purpose of this thread is to weigh Emory at less than $65K debt/cash versus a non-HYS T14 (that's also not likely Penn, Columbia, or Chicago) at more than $250K debt/cash.

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Re: Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

Postby FattyMcFatFat » Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:58 am

BruceWayne wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:Yeah, I see what you mean re: GPA--you were referring to hiring cutoffs; I noticed that earlier but forgot, so some of my comments were misplaced.

But that is just one metric of hiring, and overall placement stats, including quality of firms placed into, is arguably a better measure (if accounting for clerkships), in which case I think there are generally significant distinctions between PENN and lower T-14, even if you can find limited--such as year-to-year--distinctions, or point to particular metrics--such as the firm GPA-cutoffs you referenced--where there may seem to be little-or-no difference. Even then it may be true that the distinctions between the schools aren't always strikingly obvious, but I believe that they are there.

The differences may not be as great as all the hype re: detailed ranking schemes (which I think is one of your points), but saying that there is not a significant difference between Penn and lower-T14 is inaccurate IMO, and I think it is ironic given how strongly you believe there is a massive gulf between CCN and HYS, even though raw numbers data doesn't always make this immediately obvious (I agree there is a gap there and would be hard pressed to argue otherwise, but I don't think it is the gaping hole you think it is and I also disagree that there is no distinction between Penn and lower-T14 as indicated here).

On the 0L/1L note, I agree in some regards these posters will not generally have the insight on employment topics that 2L/3Ls will, but I disagree that what is basically an ad hominem attack is ever ideal in terms of discrediting someone, except perhaps in cases where moral authority on a topic is a necessary condition of what is being asserted. And most employment stats are in fact widely made available, even if it is true that 0Ls and 1Ls can't understand how grim it is for some of us at top schools right now.



1. You are right that there is a difference in the "quality of firms" placement between say Penn and "lower" top 14s. But it's like I was saying earlier--the differences come into play for the students who land above the median. So yeah Davis Polk likes hiring from Penn more than GULC in the sense that they hire way more often from top 1/3 at Penn than they do top 1/3 at GULC. But the issue is this; that kind of difference shouldn't factor into someone's decision making process when they're talking going top 14 at sticker vs. strong regional in region they want to work for free. How Penn students at top 1/3 do vs. Cornell students at top 1/3 do at Simpson Thatcher is something you think about when you're looking at half scholly Cornell vs. 1/3 scholly NYU. You don't take on 250K debt for a better chance at landing a job at a firm that won't hire you from either school if you land below median. But again because so many people have this mentality of "I won't land below median" that's the sort of decision making process they make. They say "hmm I won't land below median regardless, but if I land in the top 1/3 at NYU I can get Simpson Thatcher whereas if I 'and top 1/3 at NU I will have to work at Mayer Brown!" Again, not the sort of decisionmaking you should be doing unless we're talking comparable debt loads. I'm not going to say anything about your comment about there being other metrics than how deep into a class employers are willing to go for evaluating placement. Because, honestly, I don't know what you're talking about. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something because really that should be the only consideration. It determine whether they hire you or not.

2. Unfortunately, HYS are a different ballgame. There really is a massive gulf between them and the rest of the top 14 in regards to how deep employers are willing to go. Now let me add the caveat of maybe what I think is a massive gulf and what you think is a massive gulf are 2 different things. Here's the sucky reality for those of us that attend top 14's other than HYS: if you're below median at HYS with ties to a particular market you will probably get a big firm job in that market. If you attend any other top 14 as a below median student and have ties to a market, you probably won't get a big firm job in that market. To me being below median at one school vs. another likely determining whether I will get the chance to work at a big firm in my home market is a massive gulf. And to clarify what I'm saying I'll provide some hypos. Take a student from SF who is below median at Harvard and wants to go to a big firm in SF. He/she will probably land a biglaw firm in SF if they hustle. Now take a below median student at NYU from SF; he she is highly likely to strike out with SF firms and not get a job in that market. Take a student from Georgia who attends Stanford and wants to work in a biglaw firm in Atlanta. Now take one from Atlanta who attends Columbia, but is below median and wants the same thing. He/She will probably strike out in Atlanta.

Now I know because a lot of people on here only care about whether they can get a firm job in NYC that isn't important. But even if that's all you care about your chances go from being very high to up in the air once you go from HYS to a lower ranked top 14. That's a very different set of circumstances than what happens when you attend Penn over NYU or Duke over Penn. The latter aren't "job vs. no job". Whereas the HYS vs. the rest of the top 14 is highly likely to be.

FTR: None of what I said about people being 1Ls or 0Ls was meant as an insult. I said that because those groups of people generally haven't seen the GPA hiring data and have not interviewed for jobs yet.


I wonder if BruceWayne has shit like this on boilerplate. If not, he should.

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sinfiery
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Re: Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

Postby sinfiery » Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:04 am

Withdrawal Amount: $11100.60 Annual Growth Rate: 5%
Interval Between Withdrawals: Yearly Length of Annuity: 40 years
Starting Principal: $200000.00

As I doubt a stipend covers the full amount of cost of living, I will assume the loan difference between the 2 at PV are $200,000.

Getting a 5% safe annuity is probably not very easy (I'm not read up on this though) but let's go with it.

You will probably be working for 40 years after you graduate. I didn't factor in the 3 years cost of cash. Let's assume it was actually 200000=x*1.05^3 because I am lazy

So if you think your T14 education, on average, over 40 years, earns you $11k more after tax income (also factor in student loan tax writeoffs and all that jazz), do it. If not, goto Emory.


This being only financial considerations.

I'm guessing every other consideration falls in favor of the T14 in question.

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Lawquacious
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Re: Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

Postby Lawquacious » Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:39 am

sinfiery wrote:
Withdrawal Amount: $11100.60 Annual Growth Rate: 5%
Interval Between Withdrawals: Yearly Length of Annuity: 40 years
Starting Principal: $200000.00

As I doubt a stipend covers the full amount of cost of living, I will assume the loan difference between the 2 at PV are $200,000.

Getting a 5% safe annuity is probably not very easy (I'm not read up on this though) but let's go with it.

You will probably be working for 40 years after you graduate. I didn't factor in the 3 years cost of cash. Let's assume it was actually 200000=x*1.05^3 because I am lazy

So if you think your T14 education, on average, over 40 years, earns you $11k more after tax income (also factor in student loan tax writeoffs and all that jazz), do it. If not, goto Emory.


This being only financial considerations.

I'm guessing every other consideration falls in favor of the T14 in question.


Well determined.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

Postby BruceWayne » Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:03 am

Lawquacious wrote:Some good points, although I think by focusing on all the risks of T14 schools you are discounting the risk of going to Emory if OP's goal is not to stay in GA. Even if it isn't, I do think Emory with full-ride plus beats T14 unless substantial discount (though not necessarily more than half depending on which T14 or T10 we are talking about). Emory is simply in a way different league, even if it is true that many T14 kids are struggling.

Re: HYS, yes those are the best law schools, but the extent that they are venerated here and considered in an entirely different class (at least re: H and S) is not fully consistent with the fact that some of those kids struggle to get the jobs they want too. None of those are 100% golden tickets IMO, except perhaps Yale. Even then there are plenty of ways to eff up a career.

Re: the GPA cut-offs, I don't know exactly the data you are referring to, but

(a) not all firms have hard floors;

(b) this is focusing only on biglaw, which is not the end-all-be-all of employment, and T14 will generally give much better secondary options than Emory, even if these take blood, sweat, and tears to get, especially for someone looking outside of GA;

(c) just because minimums are stated to be the same at two schools (or are) doesn't mean that one school won't provide better chances than the other at that firm;

(d) although the choice analysis shouldn't assume being above median when looking at T14 (which is a risk for prospective students) it also shouldn't assume below--the expected value equation involves both percentage of those who get biglaw and percentage who don't, and just because some end up in the no biglaw category doesn't mean it was a horrible risk for them to take in the first place;

(e) getting back to some of the nuances between T14 schools, any analysis that says a person below median is necessarily in trouble re: biglaw at PENN is probably not accurate, even if you could statistically say this fairly easily of GULC. The basic median analysis you are using is less effective when applied to some of the T14 schools than with others.


Because I agree with the earlier comment that we are starting to drift away from the point of this thread, I want to point out something important about the bolded.

This is a very dangerous way of thinking that a lot of people fall into before they go to law school.

You have to understand 2 things about the bolded.

One large firms DO all have hard cutoffs. Small firms don't, but by and large they don't like hiring fresh law school grads because they don't have the resources to train. But the large firms that people are so willing to take on extra debt from a top 14 for a better chance of working at have VERY hard GPA floors. I remember that on above the law Sullivan or some other big firm's hiring instructions for their attorneys assigned to do OCI interviews specifically listed GPA cutoffs below which they were not to give callbacks to. It varied from school to school. Some big firms are more lenient than others but they all have a floor below which they don't hire barring personal connections etc.

Two, biglaw is not the be all end all of entry level legal employment. However, the other options are such that taking on large debt to attain them is a VERY bad idea. Many of these jobs give little to no boost for attending a top school and focus much more heavily on grades, experience, demonstrated interest in their field, and connections. They are also a lot less structured in their hiring meaning that it can be very risky to count on them for employment. It is crucial that one's debt be kept to a minimum for these sorts of jobs.

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Re: Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

Postby Lawquacious » Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:49 am

BruceWayne wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:Some good points, although I think by focusing on all the risks of T14 schools you are discounting the risk of going to Emory if OP's goal is not to stay in GA. Even if it isn't, I do think Emory with full-ride plus beats T14 unless substantial discount (though not necessarily more than half depending on which T14 or T10 we are talking about). Emory is simply in a way different league, even if it is true that many T14 kids are struggling.

Re: HYS, yes those are the best law schools, but the extent that they are venerated here and considered in an entirely different class (at least re: H and S) is not fully consistent with the fact that some of those kids struggle to get the jobs they want too. None of those are 100% golden tickets IMO, except perhaps Yale. Even then there are plenty of ways to eff up a career.

Re: the GPA cut-offs, I don't know exactly the data you are referring to, but

(a) not all firms have hard floors;

(b) this is focusing only on biglaw, which is not the end-all-be-all of employment, and T14 will generally give much better secondary options than Emory, even if these take blood, sweat, and tears to get, especially for someone looking outside of GA;

(c) just because minimums are stated to be the same at two schools (or are) doesn't mean that one school won't provide better chances than the other at that firm;

(d) although the choice analysis shouldn't assume being above median when looking at T14 (which is a risk for prospective students) it also shouldn't assume below--the expected value equation involves both percentage of those who get biglaw and percentage who don't, and just because some end up in the no biglaw category doesn't mean it was a horrible risk for them to take in the first place;

(e) getting back to some of the nuances between T14 schools, any analysis that says a person below median is necessarily in trouble re: biglaw at PENN is probably not accurate, even if you could statistically say this fairly easily of GULC. The basic median analysis you are using is less effective when applied to some of the T14 schools than with others.


Because I agree with the earlier comment that we are starting to drift away from the point of this thread, I want to point out something important about the bolded.

This is a very dangerous way of thinking that a lot of people fall into before they go to law school.

You have to understand 2 things about the bolded.

One large firms DO all have hard cutoffs. Small firms don't, but by and large they don't like hiring fresh law school grads because they don't have the resources to train. But the large firms that people are so willing to take on extra debt from a top 14 for a better chance of working at have VERY hard GPA floors. I remember that on above the law Sullivan or some other big firm's hiring instructions for their attorneys assigned to do OCI interviews specifically listed GPA cutoffs below which they were not to give callbacks to. It varied from school to school. Some big firms are more lenient than others but they all have a floor below which they don't hire barring personal connections etc.

Two, biglaw is not the be all end all of entry level legal employment. However, the other options are such that taking on large debt to attain them is a VERY bad idea. Many of these jobs give little to no boost for attending a top school and focus much more heavily on grades, experience, demonstrated interest in their field, and connections. They are also a lot less structured in their hiring meaning that it can be very risky to count on them for employment. It is crucial that one's debt be kept to a minimum for these sorts of jobs.



On one, would be interested to see where you are getting that all biglaw firms have hard-cutoffs. I agree that at a certain point on the GPA scale firms are going to lose interest, but for the most part falling into that doomed ranged is probably going to take falling below a 3.0 at many T14s (i.e. well below median to really be fully precluded due to hard floors).

On two (and as a follow up to my comments on one), you're right that a person shouldn't go to a T14 just to have the possible secondary benefits, but this gets back to the issue of risk assessment and how risk averse a person is. You sound extremely risk averse to me. You make good points (and I tend to agree with a lot of what you post on TLS BTW, as an aside), but the EV equation includes the positive as well as negative outcome--even if it ends up not materializing. The positive at a T14 is way better than at Emory or similar schools, even if the potential negative is arguably way worse because of the added debt. And that gets back to point two, which is that the much worse bad potential outcome at a T14 can in fact be mitigated to some extent by the school name and slightly better back-fall options (I disagree there is no effect for all the relevant jobs in this class, such as small firm jobs), even if this would be a very poor reason in itself to choose the T14.

On the getting off-topic, this thread has been ridiculously off-topic from the start--OP doesn't even have these options, and my guess is he won't.

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Re: Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

Postby weye » Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:23 pm

I was told to come back to this thread once my hypothetical situation was no longer hypothetical, and now that it isn't, I'd like to know what you all think about MVP (with some money) vs. Emory with a full tuition scholarship plus stipend. I'm not particularly tied to any major city and think I'd be equally happy in NY, DC, or ATL, and I'd most likely want to work for a large firm out of law school.

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Re: Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

Postby rad lulz » Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:26 pm

weye wrote:I was told to come back to this thread once my hypothetical situation was no longer hypothetical, and now that it isn't, I'd like to know what you all think about MVP (with some money) vs. Emory with a full tuition scholarship plus stipend. I'm not particularly tied to any major city and think I'd be equally happy in NY, DC, or ATL, and I'd most likely want to work for a large firm out of law school.

Which MVP and how much

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Re: Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

Postby weye » Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:31 pm

rad lulz wrote:
weye wrote:I was told to come back to this thread once my hypothetical situation was no longer hypothetical, and now that it isn't, I'd like to know what you all think about MVP (with some money) vs. Emory with a full tuition scholarship plus stipend. I'm not particularly tied to any major city and think I'd be equally happy in NY, DC, or ATL, and I'd most likely want to work for a large firm out of law school.

Which MVP and how much


I got in at all MVP plus Georgetown, and am waiting on Chicago, NYU, Berkeley and Stanford. 30k at Michigan, 75k at UVA, and nothing from Penn as of now. I haven't yet begun trying to leverage offers.

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Re: Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

Postby rad lulz » Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:32 pm

UVA or Emory full scholarship depending on how debt averse you are.

BigZuck
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Re: Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

Postby BigZuck » Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:36 pm

Emory gave you a Woody? Already? Or are we still in Hypo-land?

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BruceWayne
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Re: Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

Postby BruceWayne » Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:46 pm

Out of the offers you have so far, I think it's worth considering UVA with 75K over Emory full ride+ stipend. But I'd lean Emory.

If you get Stanford (or Harvard/Yale) go there regardless.

MrHairyLegs
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Re: Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

Postby MrHairyLegs » Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:12 pm

BruceWayne, just two quick questions.

Are you above median at UVA? And, if you aren't, have you had any success during OCI? Just curious :D

ze2151
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Re: Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

Postby ze2151 » Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:30 pm

op hasn't gotten a woodruff offer yet, i'm 99.99 pct certain.

weye
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Re: Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

Postby weye » Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:41 am

BigZuck wrote:Emory gave you a Woody? Already? Or are we still in Hypo-land?
Last edited by weye on Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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bizzybone1313
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Re: Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

Postby bizzybone1313 » Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:21 am

I would go to UVA with 75K assuming you don't get into higher ranked schools with money. A lot of people would come out of the T-14 with a lot less debt if they didn't spend money like drunken sailors.




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