Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

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TheThriller
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Re: Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

Postby TheThriller » Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:43 pm

In no particular order: varsity collegiate rowing in the States, South Africa, and UK (a few national titles), full tuition award for athletic/academic merit (only awarded to one student per year), violinist for university symphony orchestra, a State Dept. benefit concert tour in Korea, Japan, and Russia (we were the first American symphony to play in Vladivostok since the Cold War), and a number of small semi-professional ensembles, a few awards for film scores and other music compositions, two publications (one political theory, one philosophy), internship in Johannesburg prison, internship with Ugandan development NGO, study abroad with the International Human Rights Exchange in South Africa, research fellowship in Berlin, academic fellowship in UK (where I'm currently earning a masters), highest honors on thesis, award for most distinguished graduate in philosophy dept., Rhodes Finalist


Bro, you didn't get selected?

Have at him TLS (though I will say that those softs arn't the worst I've ever seen)

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justonemoregame
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Re: Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

Postby justonemoregame » Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:51 pm

I wish I could start my life over. I think I would do better next time

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helix23
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Re: Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

Postby helix23 » Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:53 pm

Pretty average stuff for an Emory student.

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TheThriller
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Re: Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

Postby TheThriller » Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:54 pm

justonemoregame wrote:I wish I could start my life over. I think I would do better next time


Better is an arbitrary term, luckily you still got 60+ years to start over.

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FattyMcFatFat
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Re: Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

Postby FattyMcFatFat » Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:54 pm

weye wrote:In no particular order: varsity collegiate rowing in the States, South Africa, and UK (a few national titles), full tuition award for athletic/academic merit (only awarded to one student per year), violinist for university symphony orchestra, a State Dept. benefit concert tour in Korea, Japan, and Russia (we were the first American symphony to play in Vladivostok since the Cold War), and a number of small semi-professional ensembles, a few awards for film scores and other music compositions, two publications (one political theory, one philosophy), internship in Johannesburg prison, internship with Ugandan development NGO, study abroad with the International Human Rights Exchange in South Africa, research fellowship in Berlin, academic fellowship in UK (where I'm currently earning a masters), highest honors on thesis, award for most distinguished graduate in philosophy dept., Rhodes Finalist


Enjoys rowing, filmography, violin, travel and volunteer work. Excelled academically.

Unimpressive.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:00 pm

For the purpose of the hypothetical, I'm honestly surprised so many people seem to be supporting a T14 at ~$250k+ debt over Emory at ~$40k. I think a lot of those people must still be pushing the notion that T14s at sticker are better deals than strong regional schools notably less than $100k debt/cash. I'm not really sure why they would do that, as employment statistics seem to imply the exact opposite.

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justonemoregame
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Re: Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

Postby justonemoregame » Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:04 pm

Yeah man a Woodruff could do all that shit with one arm

rad lulz
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Re: Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

Postby rad lulz » Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:05 pm

Aside from being a Rhodes finalist, those are okay. I could see maybe a M admit but OP is not an MVP lock. I have a feeling the 167 may be low for Emory's named scholarship. Then again, I don't have any data on that and the only people who do are at Emory.

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bk1
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Re: Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

Postby bk1 » Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:29 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:For the purpose of the hypothetical, I'm honestly surprised so many people seem to be supporting a T14 at ~$250k+ debt over Emory at ~$40k. I think a lot of those people must still be pushing the notion that T14s at sticker are better deals than strong regional schools notably less than $100k debt/cash. I'm not really sure why they would do that, as employment statistics seem to imply the exact opposite.


I mean you're basically looking at equal chances (30-40%) of worst case scenario at either option (ignoring, for a second, the good scenarios and just focusing on risk). Would you rather the worst case scenario be not employed as a lawyer or employed as a lawyer with $250k debt? Yes Emory is free, but you are still sinking 3 years of time and might come out the other side with nothing to show for it. I really don't think it's a slam dunk either way. There are huge risks in either choice.

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Re: Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

Postby grace123 » Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:11 pm

There is not enough info to answer this question at all.

What are OP's goals career-wise?

Where does OP want to practice?

How debt-averse is OP?

How much does OP care about prestige?

-----------------
If OP is only going to be happy getting DOJ honors after graduation, working at a big law firm in California later on, and making half a million a year as a partner 15 years down the line, then Emory is probably going to be a bad choice. If OP wants to be a public defender in Atlanta or has some kind of connection in the South for a job that he/she plans to use after graduation, then it would be completely ridiculous not to take Woodruff.

These are the factors you all should be thinking of when you're choosing law schools, not "oh I got into a top 14. Guess it's time to take out that $250k loan."

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Re: Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

Postby albanach » Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:04 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:For the purpose of the hypothetical, I'm honestly surprised so many people seem to be supporting a T14 at ~$250k+ debt over Emory at ~$40k. I think a lot of those people must still be pushing the notion that T14s at sticker are better deals than strong regional schools notably less than $100k debt/cash. I'm not really sure why they would do that, as employment statistics seem to imply the exact opposite.


Going by Emory's cost of living figures, it'll be more like $65k to attend, taking into account the $3k stipend.

Like I said in my earlier post, if OP is serious about PI, the LRAP programs are an important consideration. If you spend 10 years in PI at about $55 many, perhaps most T14 schools will be paying your loans off for you. That's the same as attending your T14 for free with a full cost of living stipend.

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Re: Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

Postby BruceWayne » Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:00 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:For the purpose of the hypothetical, I'm honestly surprised so many people seem to be supporting a T14 at ~$250k+ debt over Emory at ~$40k. I think a lot of those people must still be pushing the notion that T14s at sticker are better deals than strong regional schools notably less than $100k debt/cash. I'm not really sure why they would do that, as employment statistics seem to imply the exact opposite.


Well the main reason is because none of the one's responding are 2 or 3Ls at top 14 schools. They are either 0Ls or 1Ls. Thus, they don't really know what they are talking about as far as legal employment is concerned. The main thing that they don't realize is that once you fall below median at any non HYS top 14, you lose almost all of the top 14 "magic". What I mean by that is you lose access to the jobs that care significantly about attending a top 14 (i.e. big law). What people who haven't gone through 2L interviewing and the post 1L job hunt don't realize is that once you fall below median most big firms really don't care where you go to school--they're not interested. Where school rank really comes into play is for the student who lands median or above. And for the few that do understand this they, understandably as students interested in law, don't realize that what this means is that at least 50% of the people attending a non HYS top 14 are in serious risk of missing biglaw after 1L.
Last edited by BruceWayne on Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

Postby Lawquacious » Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:04 pm

weye wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:
weye wrote:. For the record, this is largely hypothetical, but I appreciate the response.



Did nobody notice this? Come back when you actually have the options OP.

TCR

167/4.0 (per OPs profile) is probably not a shoe-in for the Woodruff at Emory and the only T14 OP can rely on in Cornell, so this thread is dumb.


No, not dumb. The scholarship offer from Emory requires that you respond within something like 24 hours, so I thought it would make sense to get opinions on this beforehand. And I went 3/4 in the low T14 last year with a 165 with some very late applications; I think its reasonable to expect more than Cornell, and I think it's going to be a tough decision if I get the Woodruff. Thanks though.



Come back when you have the options dood remains my opinion. But I would lean toward T14 if you can get partial schollys there, or T10 without scholly, unless you are set on ATL.
Last edited by Lawquacious on Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:13 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

Postby Lawquacious » Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:06 pm

weye wrote:
grace123 wrote:unless you have really amazing softs, you're not gonna get woodruff with those numbers. But you probably will get a very nice scholly from Emory (2/3 tuition-ish), so that's good. Good luck on your choices, OP!



I do have pretty bangin softs.



http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001295 ... large.jpeg

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:38 am

BruceWayne wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:For the purpose of the hypothetical, I'm honestly surprised so many people seem to be supporting a T14 at ~$250k+ debt over Emory at ~$40k. I think a lot of those people must still be pushing the notion that T14s at sticker are better deals than strong regional schools notably less than $100k debt/cash. I'm not really sure why they would do that, as employment statistics seem to imply the exact opposite.


Well the main reason is because none of the one's responding are 2 or 3Ls at top 14 schools. They are either 0Ls or 1Ls. Thus, they don't really know what they are talking about as far as legal employment is concerned. The main thing that they don't realize is that once you fall below median at any non HYS top 14, you lose almost all of the top 14 "magic". What I mean by that is you lose access to the jobs that care significantly about attending a top 14 (i.e. big law). What people who haven't gone through 2L interviewing and the post 1L job hunt don't realize is that once you fall below median most big firms really don't care where you go to school--they're not interested. Where school rank really comes into play is for the student who lands median or above. And for the few that do understand this they, understandably as students interested in law, don't realize that this means is that at least 50% of the people attending a non HYS top 14 are in serious risk of missing biglaw after 1L.


I agree. It's actually scary that people still are willing to throw $250K worth of savings/debt at a non-HYS T14 for around a 50% chance of big law, let alone when they have the option of attending a strong regional school at a more than reasonable price.

I think some people need to think about it in quantitative terms of desirable outcomes, so I am going to compare Emory to UVA, as the schools are in the same region and the OP stats make him/her competitive for acceptance into UVA via UVA's ED option. I'm actually going to make this simple: UVA places ~50% of the class in determinable desirable outcomes, while Emory places ~25% of the class in similar outcomes. If someone has the option of paying $50K for Emory, then they should only pay $100K for UVA as it is only worth about twice as much as Emory in terms of desirable outcomes. Maybe I'm missing something, but it escapes me that people would pay 3x+ more for a non-HYS T14 than a strong regional school like Emory. To me, it just doesn't make financial or even logical sense.

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Re: Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

Postby albanach » Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:54 am

BruceWayne wrote:Well the main reason is because none of the one's responding are 2 or 3Ls at top 14 schools.


Except for those of us who are?

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Re: Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

Postby BruceWayne » Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:48 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:I agree. It's actually scary that people still are willing to throw $250K worth of savings/debt at a non-HYS T14 for around a 50% chance of big law, let alone when they have the option of attending a strong regional school at a more than reasonable price.

I think some people need to think about it in quantitative terms of desirable outcomes, so I am going to compare Emory to UVA, as the schools are in the same region and the OP stats make him/her competitive for acceptance into UVA via UVA's ED option. I'm actually going to make this simple: UVA places ~50% of the class in determinable desirable outcomes, while Emory places ~25% of the class in similar outcomes. If someone has the option of paying $50K for Emory, then they should only pay $100K for UVA as it is only worth about twice as much as Emory in terms of desirable outcomes. Maybe I'm missing something, but it escapes me that people would pay 3x+ more for a non-HYS T14 than a strong regional school like Emory. To me, it just doesn't make financial or even logical sense.


Honestly, it makes practically no sense. I could see if the OP had said his goal was NYC biglaw first choice and NYC PI second. But other than that the risks outweigh the rewards. The likelihood of missing biglaw and having 250K debt to show for it is far too high--particularly when you consider how bad that outcome is.

The other thing is the somewhat understandable mentality that 0Ls and first semester 1Ls have about grades: namely that they simply won't end up with below median grades. You'd be amazed at how many people think they won't end up below the median. Really, I've noticed that a lot of people seem to evaluate law school employment prospects from the perspective of simply assuming that, at worst, they will get median grades. I was actually talking with some 1Ls a few days ago and it was just remarkable how many of them were simply convinced that there's no way that they will land below the median. When you have that mentality hearing that below median students are highly unlikely to land biglaw at a top 14 makes the top 14 a lot more appealing than it should. Even at sticker debt. They think, well since median and above at a top 14 have a high chance of landing biglaw, and since I definitely won't land below median, it's top 14 no brainer--even at sticker.

albanach wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:Well the main reason is because none of the one's responding are 2 or 3Ls at top 14 schools.


Except for those of us who are?


You would fall into the group I referenced with the bolded.

BruceWayne wrote:Well the main reason is because none of the one's responding are 2 or 3Ls at top 14 schools. They are either 0Ls or 1Ls. Thus, they don't really know what they are talking about as far as legal employment is concerned. The main thing that they don't realize is that once you fall below median at any non HYS top 14, you lose almost all of the top 14 "magic". What I mean by that is you lose access to the jobs that care significantly about attending a top 14 (i.e. big law). What people who haven't gone through 2L interviewing and the post 1L job hunt don't realize is that once you fall below median most big firms really don't care where you go to school--they're not interested. Where school rank really comes into play is for the student who lands median or above. And for the few that do understand this they, understandably as students interested in law, don't realize that what this means is that at least 50% of the people attending a non HYS top 14 are in serious risk of missing biglaw after 1L.


Lawquacious wrote:Come back when you have the options dood remains my opinion. But I would lean toward T14 if you can get partial schollys there, or T10 without scholly, unless you are set on ATL.[/quo


This is scary. There is no difference between employment prospects based on a top 10 vs. top 14 demarcation. Really, even the top 6 demarcation is mostly a TLS creation. Top 6 is only relevant in the sense that the higher ranked NYC located vault firms will hire substantially more from above median at Columbia, Chicago, and NYU than they will from the schools ranked below. For students below the median those firms don't seem to really differentiate between non HYS top 14s--they're not interested if you're below the median period. And there is no difference in how non NYC firms hire from CCN vs. the lower ranked top 14s. If they see below median from any non HYS top 14 they generally auto reject the applicant.

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Re: Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

Postby Aqualibrium » Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:22 pm

To piggy back on what BruceWayne was saying about folks evaluating their outcome based on the notion that they won't end up below median, I'd say that most people also evaluate their outcome based on the notion that they'll be at a firm long enough to actually pay of their debt despite the fact that the numbers are readily available and show that attrition is ridiculously high. The fact is, most entry level associates don't make it past 3 years. My own firm proudly announces that only about 60% of their entry levels don't last past three years! There is absolutely nothing secure about a job as an entry level law firm associate. Nothing. The best thing anyone can do for themselves is keep their debt load to the absolute minimum unless they are headed off to HYS, IMO.

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Re: Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

Postby calidancer2 » Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:38 pm

weye wrote:
In no particular order: varsity collegiate rowing in the States, South Africa, and UK (a few national titles), full tuition award for athletic/academic merit (only awarded to one student per year), violinist for university symphony orchestra, a State Dept. benefit concert tour in Korea, Japan, and Russia (we were the first American symphony to play in Vladivostok since the Cold War), and a number of small semi-professional ensembles, a few awards for film scores and other music compositions, two publications (one political theory, one philosophy), internship in Johannesburg prison, internship with Ugandan development NGO, study abroad with the International Human Rights Exchange in South Africa, research fellowship in Berlin, academic fellowship in UK (where I'm currently earning a masters), highest honors on thesis, award for most distinguished graduate in philosophy dept., Rhodes Finalist



damn you went to prison? nice softs bro

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Re: Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

Postby BruceWayne » Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:43 pm

Aqualibrium wrote:To piggy back on what BruceWayne was saying about folks evaluating their outcome based on the notion that they won't end up below median, I'd say that most people also evaluate their outcome based on the notion that they'll be at a firm long enough to actually pay of their debt despite the fact that the numbers are readily available and show that attrition is ridiculously high. The fact is, most entry level associates don't make it past 3 years. My own firm proudly announces that only about 60% of their entry levels don't last past three years! There is absolutely nothing secure about a job as an entry level law firm associate. Nothing. The best thing anyone can do for themselves is keep their debt load to the absolute minimum unless they are headed off to HYS, IMO.


And really, the assumption that they're making with this one is even worse. Particularly when you're talking about ending up in a situation where you're sticker and working NYC biglaw. That means on top of likely being forced out after 3-4 years, during those years you were paying the highest COL in the country and one of the highest tax rates. Substantially decreasing your ability to pay off that 250K+ in debt you racked up going sticker to top 14.

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Justin Genious
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Re: Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

Postby Justin Genious » Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:59 pm

I am willing to bet that the majority of schools within the t14 place more than 50% of their students in desirable jobs. It's not as if students who don't hit median at t14 schools are out of luck and a reputable position. Unless every student that attends law school has one goal and desirable outcome, which is biglaw, I would say ~70% of most t14 students get a position they want.

Best Regards,
An ignorant 0L

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:49 pm

Aqualibrium wrote:To piggy back on what BruceWayne was saying about folks evaluating their outcome based on the notion that they won't end up below median, I'd say that most people also evaluate their outcome based on the notion that they'll be at a firm long enough to actually pay of their debt despite the fact that the numbers are readily available and show that attrition is ridiculously high. The fact is, most entry level associates don't make it past 3 years. My own firm proudly announces that only about 60% of their entry levels don't last past three years! There is absolutely nothing secure about a job as an entry level law firm associate. Nothing. The best thing anyone can do for themselves is keep their debt load to the absolute minimum unless they are headed off to HYS, IMO.

Why the HYS caveat at the end?

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Re: Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

Postby Aqualibrium » Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:55 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
Aqualibrium wrote:To piggy back on what BruceWayne was saying about folks evaluating their outcome based on the notion that they won't end up below median, I'd say that most people also evaluate their outcome based on the notion that they'll be at a firm long enough to actually pay of their debt despite the fact that the numbers are readily available and show that attrition is ridiculously high. The fact is, most entry level associates don't make it past 3 years. My own firm proudly announces that only about 60% of their entry levels don't last past three years! There is absolutely nothing secure about a job as an entry level law firm associate. Nothing. The best thing anyone can do for themselves is keep their debt load to the absolute minimum unless they are headed off to HYS, IMO.

Why the HYS caveat at the end?



Because I'd say the tangible and intangible benefits of attending HYS are generally going to be worthy of taking on the debt.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:58 pm

Aqualibrium wrote:Because I'd say the tangible and intangible benefits of attending HYS are generally going to be worthy of taking on the debt.

You think those credentials help someone more easily land a second job? It seems like that'd be the only way to justify it since your concern is more about staying in BigLaw than getting it. I do agree that staying in BigLaw is an underrated obstacle, although I think most people who do get it and leave after a few years will ultimately make more money than they would have otherwise.

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Re: Emory scholly v. T14 sticker

Postby Lawquacious » Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:59 pm

Lawquacious wrote:Come back when you have the options dood remains my opinion. But I would lean toward T14 if you can get partial schollys there, or T10 without scholly, unless you are set on ATL.

BruceWayne wrote:This is scary. There is no difference between employment prospects based on a top 10 vs. top 14 demarcation. Really, even the top 6 demarcation is mostly a TLS creation. Top 6 is only relevant in the sense that the higher ranked NYC located vault firms will hire substantially more from above median at Columbia, Chicago, and NYU than they will from the schools ranked below. For students below the median those firms don't seem to really differentiate between non HYS top 14s--they're not interested if you're below the median period. And there is no difference in how non NYC firms hire from CCN vs. the lower ranked top 14s. If they see below median from any non HYS top 14 they generally auto reject the applicant.



Yeah, maybe I should have just left it as partial-scholly for T14 and left out the T10 comment (although I recognize you still wouldn't agree), but I think you are disregarding the fact that attending Emory even with super-scholly is also scary unless OP is set on practicing in GA. There is still a massive opportunity cost of attending, and there is in fact a pretty massive gulf between even the lower T14 and Emory.

Also, for the record (but as a side note) there is a very significant difference between a T10 like PENN and schools in the lower T-14.




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