Sports Law/ Politics

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Ludo!
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Re: Sports Law/ Politics

Postby Ludo! » Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:43 pm

NoleFin wrote:
Ludovico Technique wrote:What is unrealistic about retaking other than being "ready"


Unrealistic was perhaps the wrong word. Nothing in unrealistic about. I just dont see why I would if I can get into FSU and its perfectly affordable.


Because a significant percentage of FSU grads wind up unemployed and if that happens to you, you just wasted your $60,000 savings. Retaking gives you a chance at schools with better employment prospects OR scholarship money at FSU so that you don't have to gamble your own money.

NoleFin
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Re: Sports Law/ Politics

Postby NoleFin » Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:45 pm

dextermorgan wrote:
NoleFin wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
NoleFin wrote:I understand math. However going into school thinking that is the wrong attitude. Obviously you guys have no reason to believe me, so im not trying to persuade you, but I know personally if Im dedicated I will do it.

You understand math, but you don't seem to understand what the math means. Let me explain:

Law school classes are graded on a curve, and since all classes at a school are graded on the same curve, it's easy to develop a class rank. (This is why employers don't care about your letter grades, just whether you were "top x%" in your class). If you ended up in the top 10% of your class, mathematically it's because you did better than 90% of your classmates in most, if not all, of your classes (you can have an outlier class or two and still make top 10%). This is the math part, the part you know.

Here's the part I think you don't get. How many people do you think go to law school saying, "I'm not dedicated"? How many go, "even in this terrible job market, I will just coast and not care if my poor grades make me unemployable"? How many go, "I've decided to spend 3 years of my life and tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars on something, but I'm just not dedicated to it"?

I'm not saying that everyone will be as dedicated as you are. There are probably at least a few people in each law school who don't care about grades because they'll go work for daddy's law firm when they graduate, and there are also some who are just going to law school because they don't know what else they want to do. But law schools are filled with students who, just like you, are telling themselves that they may not have a strong GPA or LSAT score to get into a top school, but they'll still succeed because they're "dedicated".

The only way your "I'll make top 10% because I'm dedicated" theory works is if 1) you think that only 10% of the class or less will be truly "dedicated" and 2) dedication is what separates top-performing law students from the rest. Both of those assumptions are wrong, but even just focusing on the first one illustrates how you're ignoring the meaning behind the math.

If 50% of a law school's class are filled with people who are "dedicated" and determined to finish in the top 10%, then at least 40% of them will be disappointed.

NoleFin wrote:I just will not be talked down to by someone just because they probably studied a year to get there 169.

You had a 162. A gain from 162 to 169 is only 7 points. It shouldn't take anywhere near a year of study to gain 7 points on the LSAT. Typically people who haven't done serious study can gain 10-15 points over 2-3 months. I studied for two months and gained around 15 points. If you didn't do serious study, then you really should study and retake.

People aren't telling you this to be dicks. They're telling you to help you. In the legal industry, and also in the world of agents from what I understand, what matters most are your connections. If you don't already know people it's extremely hard to break in, and one of the few ways you can make new connections are through the school you attend and the weight that it carries. This makes going to the best school possible important, and doing that means doing well on the LSAT.

"Retake" is the best advice people have for you. If you're going to reject that, then that's your loss.


First of all let me preface this by saying I really appreciate your input and how well thought out of a post this is. Fact of the matter though is that doesnt change what I was getting at. I understand what your saying, and I know i cant mathematically prove why I think I can be top 10%....but 10% of students will be. Why cant it be me? I know your going to say, it can be you, its just a 10% chance.

My point is you dont know any of the variables that go into making me who I am. It sounds silly, im sure, to most of you, but if in my head i truly believe i can excel at something...well thats my opinion. We wont know if Im right or wrong for 3 1/2 more years.

The "retake" advice just isnt realistic for me right now, i feel like im ready. If i couldnt get into FSU, sure I would probably have to. But I wont be dissapointed at all about getting in to FSU.

You have just as much of a chance as your classmates, which is to say they have just as much of a chance as you. Law schools put together classes that are incredibly similar in achievement and ability. That is why it is a crap shoot.


Actually thank you, youve now given me what Ive been trying to say. I feel like both my GPA and my LSAT Score are not reflective of my ability. You could say ive been a slacker my whole life and that wouldnt necessarily be untrue. Im now more dedicated than ive ever been. I cant show you this, so you either just believe me or dont. I truly believe Ill be smarter than the majority of students at FSU. Im obviously not certain of this, but it is my belief none the less.

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bk1
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Re: Sports Law/ Politics

Postby bk1 » Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:47 pm

NoleFin wrote:Actually thank you, youve now given me what Ive been trying to say. I feel like both my GPA and my LSAT Score are not reflective of my ability. You could say ive been a slacker my whole life and that wouldnt necessarily be untrue. Im now more dedicated than ive ever been. I cant show you this, so you either just believe me or dont. I truly believe Ill be smarter than the majority of students at FSU. Im obviously not certain of this, but it is my belief none the less.


Your future classmates likely think similarly to you.

If you actually think your LSAT is not reflective of your ability then you absolutely should retake.

NoleFin
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Re: Sports Law/ Politics

Postby NoleFin » Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:47 pm

bk1 wrote:
NoleFin wrote:Correct. Hence why Ill never be able to prove to any of you what im saying. Kinda like no one believed Joe Montana when he said he WOULD win the superbowl. Silly comparison I know, but hopefully you get the gist.


Then how do you prove it to yourself? You are competing against people you don't know yet you're sure you'll beat 90% of them. It seems to me that the fatal flaw is that even if you know yourself you know nothing about your future classmates, which means you shouldn't be confident in your outcome.

Vanwinkle is right, you should retake the LSAT. You have a lot to gain and little to lose (a year is not a big deal). Yes you could be in the same position a year from now, but your odds of gaining are high (much higher than your odds of being top 10%) and the costs are low (the LSAT is cheap compared to 1 year of law school tuition).


Well i obviously am not sure, but yes i believe this. Your second paragraph is a very strong point....

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nickb285
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Re: Sports Law/ Politics

Postby nickb285 » Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:47 pm

NoleFin wrote:Fair enough. I dont like agreeing with you tho because of how big of an asshole youve been.

I dont look at it like that though. Its not that extreme. I dont "lose a 60k spin" if i dont make it top 10%. I think I will accomplish that, but even if i dont, its not like law school becomes a COMPLETE waste.


Cry me a river.

You're right that it's not a complete waste, but it's a matter of return on investment. Sure, you've still got a shot at making it worthwhile if you're median at FSU. But if you retake and either a) go to a better school or b) go to FSU for free/almost free, you've got a much better shot. In the gambling analogy, a retake is like putting a block in numbers 1-8 on the roulette wheel and then betting on the same number group you had before. And if you feel your LSAT is "not indicative of your true abilities," why in the hell would you allow it to represent you?

NoleFin
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Re: Sports Law/ Politics

Postby NoleFin » Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:49 pm

Ludovico Technique wrote:
NoleFin wrote:
Ludovico Technique wrote:What is unrealistic about retaking other than being "ready"


Unrealistic was perhaps the wrong word. Nothing in unrealistic about. I just dont see why I would if I can get into FSU and its perfectly affordable.


Because a significant percentage of FSU grads wind up unemployed and if that happens to you, you just wasted your $60,000 savings. Retaking gives you a chance at schools with better employment prospects OR scholarship money at FSU so that you don't have to gamble your own money.


Ya you make a good point. I guess I just have to much faith in myself to think ill be a failure. Some people might see that as a character flaw, but undoubtedly many see it as necessary for success. I will say you have certainly made me stop and think.

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cahwc12
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Re: Sports Law/ Politics

Postby cahwc12 » Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:49 pm

Nolefin, what kind of contracting work did/do you do?

NoleFin
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Re: Sports Law/ Politics

Postby NoleFin » Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:53 pm

nickb285 wrote:
NoleFin wrote:Fair enough. I dont like agreeing with you tho because of how big of an asshole youve been.

I dont look at it like that though. Its not that extreme. I dont "lose a 60k spin" if i dont make it top 10%. I think I will accomplish that, but even if i dont, its not like law school becomes a COMPLETE waste.


Cry me a river.

You're right that it's not a complete waste, but it's a matter of return on investment. Sure, you've still got a shot at making it worthwhile if you're median at FSU. But if you retake and either a) go to a better school or b) go to FSU for free/almost free, you've got a much better shot. In the gambling analogy, a retake is like putting a block in numbers 1-8 on the roulette wheel and then betting on the same number group you had before. And if you feel your LSAT is "not indicative of your true abilities," why in the hell would you allow it to represent you?


Ill cry you a damn ocean :mrgreen:

I like your roulette analogies- thats my game. My thing is i wouldnt mind it reflecting me if it brings me to FSU because thats my alum, the most affordable/value, and close to home.

NoleFin
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Re: Sports Law/ Politics

Postby NoleFin » Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:54 pm

cahwc12 wrote:Nolefin, what kind of contracting work did/do you do?


Demolition. Im an assitant estimator/project manager. Its a small company so the job titles dont mean as much.

NoleFin
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Re: Sports Law/ Politics

Postby NoleFin » Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:55 pm

Do I get a cookie or something for a 7 page thread?

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bk1
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Re: Sports Law/ Politics

Postby bk1 » Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:56 pm

NoleFin wrote:Ya you make a good point. I guess I just have to much faith in myself to think ill be a failure. Some people might see that as a character flaw, but undoubtedly many see it as necessary for success. I will say you have certainly made me stop and think.


Retaking the LSAT (should you still go to FSU) could net you tens of thousands of dollars in scholarship money. Do you not have faith in yourself to do better on the LSAT? Do you not find that to be a wise economic decision (waiting a year to essentially get paid tens of thousands in addition to whatever you make from your regular job)?

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nickb285
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Re: Sports Law/ Politics

Postby nickb285 » Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:58 pm

NoleFin wrote:thats my alum, the most affordable/value, and close to home.


All of those are decent reasons to attend FSU. None of those are decent reasons to attend FSU and pay tens of thousands of dollars more for doing so than you would if you slow your roll and retake.

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BlueJeanBaby
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Re: Sports Law/ Politics

Postby BlueJeanBaby » Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:59 pm

FSU gives out acceptances extremely early. I'm pretty sure the scholarships go along with it. You could know pretty quickly if you should/need to retake.

NoleFin
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Re: Sports Law/ Politics

Postby NoleFin » Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:05 pm

Thank you to all 3 of the posts above me. All good advice. As bluejeans noted, Ill know hopefully soon about FSU. You guys have made your point clear though. Sorry for coming off as a prick to those of you I lashed out at. Some of you kinda deserved it though lol. Nonetheless your points have been duly noted and I will now consider the thought of retaking.

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cahwc12
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Re: Sports Law/ Politics

Postby cahwc12 » Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:11 pm

NoleFin wrote:Thank you to all 3 of the posts above me. All good advice. As bluejeans noted, Ill know hopefully soon about FSU. You guys have made your point clear though. Sorry for coming off as a prick to those of you I lashed out at. Some of you kinda deserved it though lol. Nonetheless your points have been duly noted and I will now consider the thought of retaking.


Did you already apply?

timbs4339
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Re: Sports Law/ Politics

Postby timbs4339 » Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:36 pm

The reason you come off as a rich kid is because usually only rich kids (their parents) can afford to throw away 60K on a poor investment. It's fine to spend 60K on law school if that decreases your net worth from $1,060,000 > $1,000,000. It's quite another thing to risk decreasing your net worth from $60,000 > $0.00.

I would caution against dumping all your savings into law school. I knew some friends who kept 20-30K in the bank even while carrying 200K debt just in case they wound up jobless at the end or got laid off quickly.

WanderingPondering
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Re: Sports Law/ Politics

Postby WanderingPondering » Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:38 pm

NoleFin wrote:Thank you to all 3 of the posts above me. All good advice. As bluejeans noted, Ill know hopefully soon about FSU. You guys have made your point clear though. Sorry for coming off as a prick to those of you I lashed out at. Some of you kinda deserved it though lol. Nonetheless your points have been duly noted and I will now consider the thought of retaking.


It only took 164 posts to get here, but we did it!

Good work TLS!

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nickb285
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Re: Sports Law/ Politics

Postby nickb285 » Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:42 pm

Image

NoleFin
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Re: Sports Law/ Politics

Postby NoleFin » Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:43 pm

cahwc12 wrote:
NoleFin wrote:Thank you to all 3 of the posts above me. All good advice. As bluejeans noted, Ill know hopefully soon about FSU. You guys have made your point clear though. Sorry for coming off as a prick to those of you I lashed out at. Some of you kinda deserved it though lol. Nonetheless your points have been duly noted and I will now consider the thought of retaking.


Did you already apply?


Yesterday.

NoleFin
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Re: Sports Law/ Politics

Postby NoleFin » Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:45 pm

timbs4339 wrote:The reason you come off as a rich kid is because usually only rich kids (their parents) can afford to throw away 60K on a poor investment. It's fine to spend 60K on law school if that decreases your net worth from $1,060,000 > $1,000,000. It's quite another thing to risk decreasing your net worth from $60,000 > $0.00.

I would caution against dumping all your savings into law school. I knew some friends who kept 20-30K in the bank even while carrying 200K debt just in case they wound up jobless at the end or got laid off quickly.


I see how it could come off as that. I guess my aspirations are high enough where 60k doesnt seem like that much to me. If i have to worry about 60k, im not where I want to be anyway.

psm11
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Re: Sports Law/ Politics

Postby psm11 » Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:50 pm

I spent a summer at WME and my advice to you would be to forego law school and start working in the sports field. Ideally, and this is really the only way to make it as an agent (unless, on your own, you land a superstar client and take him to the big leagues) is to get into a mail room of an agency and, after a year or so, apply to their internal agent training program (at least that is the procedure at WME). In your case you would want to shoot for an agency that has a focus on sports like IMG or maybe CAA because they have a growing sports department. Getting into the mailroom at one of these places is as hard, probably harder, than getting into a t-14 law school and most of the people, including myself, secured a job through a family connection who works in the business. Sports/Entertainment field is a field that everyone wants so it is very hard to break into it. Don't waste 3 years on a degree that you probably will not use if this is the field you decide to pursue. Start mass mailing your local sports teams, local sports agents, big agencies, etc and start building connections that could help land you a job at a big agency.

NoleFin
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Re: Sports Law/ Politics

Postby NoleFin » Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:53 pm

psm11 wrote:I spent a summer at WME and my advice to you would be to forego law school and start working in the sports field. Ideally, and this is really the only way to make it as an agent (unless, on your own, you land a superstar client and take him to the big leagues) is to get into a mail room of an agency and, after a year or so, apply to their internal agent training program (at least that is the procedure at WME). In your case you would want to shoot for an agency that has a focus on sports like IMG or maybe CAA because they have a growing sports department. Getting into the mailroom at one of these places is as hard, probably harder, than getting into a t-14 law school and most of the people, including myself, secured a job through a family connection who works in the business. Sports/Entertainment field is a field that everyone wants so it is very hard to break into it. Don't waste 3 years on a degree that you probably will not use if this is the field you decide to pursue. Start mass mailing your local sports teams, local sports agents, big agencies, etc and start building connections that could help land you a job at a big agency.



Thanks a lot this is great advice. I never "planned" on becoming an agent. Thats why i specifically referred to it as a pipedream. However many posters took that as me having no idea what I was getting into and only wanting to attend Law School to become the next Drew Rosenhaus.

I know this is unlikely, but maybe one day. I still love everything about the study of law so even if this doesnt workout, I wont be crushed.

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cahwc12
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Re: Sports Law/ Politics

Postby cahwc12 » Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:53 pm

NoleFin wrote:
cahwc12 wrote:
NoleFin wrote:Thank you to all 3 of the posts above me. All good advice. As bluejeans noted, Ill know hopefully soon about FSU. You guys have made your point clear though. Sorry for coming off as a prick to those of you I lashed out at. Some of you kinda deserved it though lol. Nonetheless your points have been duly noted and I will now consider the thought of retaking.


Did you already apply?


Yesterday.



viewtopic.php?f=18&t=198159

Why are you rewriting your PS? Is that the one you sent to FSU? or did they let you apply sans PS? Is it for other schools?

NoleFin
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Re: Sports Law/ Politics

Postby NoleFin » Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:59 pm

cahwc12 wrote:
NoleFin wrote:
cahwc12 wrote:
NoleFin wrote:Thank you to all 3 of the posts above me. All good advice. As bluejeans noted, Ill know hopefully soon about FSU. You guys have made your point clear though. Sorry for coming off as a prick to those of you I lashed out at. Some of you kinda deserved it though lol. Nonetheless your points have been duly noted and I will now consider the thought of retaking.


Did you already apply?


Yesterday.



viewtopic.php?f=18&t=198159

Why are you rewriting your PS? Is that the one you sent to FSU? or did they let you apply sans PS? Is it for other schools?


Ya thats for other schools. The only one i wrote specifically tailored to the school was FSU because I was able to talk about my undergrad experience.

psm11
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Re: Sports Law/ Politics

Postby psm11 » Thu Nov 15, 2012 4:02 pm

NoleFin wrote:
psm11 wrote:I spent a summer at WME and my advice to you would be to forego law school and start working in the sports field. Ideally, and this is really the only way to make it as an agent (unless, on your own, you land a superstar client and take him to the big leagues) is to get into a mail room of an agency and, after a year or so, apply to their internal agent training program (at least that is the procedure at WME). In your case you would want to shoot for an agency that has a focus on sports like IMG or maybe CAA because they have a growing sports department. Getting into the mailroom at one of these places is as hard, probably harder, than getting into a t-14 law school and most of the people, including myself, secured a job through a family connection who works in the business. Sports/Entertainment field is a field that everyone wants so it is very hard to break into it. Don't waste 3 years on a degree that you probably will not use if this is the field you decide to pursue. Start mass mailing your local sports teams, local sports agents, big agencies, etc and start building connections that could help land you a job at a big agency.



Thanks a lot this is great advice. I never "planned" on becoming an agent. Thats why i specifically referred to it as a pipedream. However many posters took that as me having no idea what I was getting into and only wanting to attend Law School to become the next Drew Rosenhaus.

I know this is unlikely, but maybe one day. I still love everything about the study of law so even if this doesnt workout, I wont be crushed.



Yeah sorry I just skipped to the end of the thread and threw some of my experience in the mix. Being an agent is certainly not easy but it also doesn't have to be a "pipedream". If you bust your ass and make some solid connections and build up a resume with significant experience in the sports field (like working for the NFL team in your hometown or working for an attorney in your hometown who reps MLB, NFL, or NBA players -- granted they don't have to rep Kobe or Lebron -- these guys can put you in touch with other people who may work for the NBA, NFL etc and help land you a job at an agency). I never really worked in the sports field but I have friends who work for the Lakers and stuff and it seems pretty similar to showbiz, that is, everything is about the connections you make.

If it's something you really want I'd say move out to California or to the city of what ever sports team will give you a job and start being around the business.




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