Best Bargain...or Best School?

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Rahviveh
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Re: Best Bargain...or Best School?

Postby Rahviveh » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:23 pm

BigZuck wrote:
Paul Campos wrote:Law school applications are going to be down sharply again this cycle (this is based on info from three different top 50 schools in three different parts of the country).

This means:

(1) People should be very hesitant to go the ED route.

(2) The benefit of waiting until late in the cycle to apply is getting higher. (If you thought schools were desperate last spring just wait until you see what they'll be willing to do in April).

(3) If you're a reverse splitter and you don't retake you are out of your mind. Why would you be rushing to buy into a plunging market when you could apply with stronger credentials at a time (late in the cycle or next cycle) when you'd get more bang for your buck even without stronger numbers?


You really think we should just sit on our applications and apply later? If schools do start throwing out money like crazy at the end of the cycle couldn't early applicants just ask for more? You have me, as an early applicant, worried.


I have great respect for Professor Campos but I would take his advice on #2 with caution. That said #1 and #3 are credited

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annet
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Re: Best Bargain...or Best School?

Postby annet » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:31 pm

BigZuck wrote:
Paul Campos wrote:Law school applications are going to be down sharply again this cycle (this is based on info from three different top 50 schools in three different parts of the country).

This means:

(1) People should be very hesitant to go the ED route.

(2) The benefit of waiting until late in the cycle to apply is getting higher. (If you thought schools were desperate last spring just wait until you see what they'll be willing to do in April).

(3) If you're a reverse splitter and you don't retake you are out of your mind. Why would you be rushing to buy into a plunging market when you could apply with stronger credentials at a time (late in the cycle or next cycle) when you'd get more bang for your buck even without stronger numbers?


You really think we should just sit on our applications and apply later? If schools do start throwing out money like crazy at the end of the cycle couldn't early applicants just ask for more? You have me, as an early applicant, worried.


I think there's a middle ground between not sending in applications until quite late in the cycle and applying ED.

My plan is to send in applications when I'm ready but then really have it in my head that I may not know where I'm going to law school until late in the game*. Maybe prepare to eat a seat deposit or two. Be prepared to really negotiate if the expected applicant pool is as small as predicted.



*Easy for me to say at 30 but believe me I know how hard it is having to go to family events and have every.single.relative have an opinion about what you should be doing with your life. Prepare a really good speech about how you're playing hardball with the schools to make sure you get the most money and that you'll absolutely be at a great law school next fall, you just don't want to limit yourself early in the game. Talk yourself up.

Paul Campos
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Re: Best Bargain...or Best School?

Postby Paul Campos » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:44 pm

I agree that whether it makes sense to hold off on applying until later in the cycle is a tougher call than the other two points. It depends in part on how comfortable an applicant is with back and forth negotiations. I suspect that an applicant who applies late in this cycle will, at a lot of schools, get a better first offer than what that applicant would have gotten with exactly the same numbers earlier in the cycle. That's certainly what happened last year, when a bunch of people who made their decisions early in the cycle ended up paying higher tuition than people with worse numbers who were accepted off wait lists late in the year. . . . The starting point in a negotiation tends to make a big difference in the final result.

Keep in mind that law schools never "run out" of scholarship money. There's an excellent chance that a bunch of schools in this cycle will be admitting people at huge discounts at the end of the cycle because they'll, from a fiscal point of view, have no choice. It's a gamble for the individual applicant, but one that may well be worth taking.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Best Bargain...or Best School?

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:16 pm

Great post, but apparently you didn't interact with Univ. of Denver adcomms who did run-out of scholarship money. Also, wasn't a law school admissions officer fired last cycle for over awarding scholarships ? (Univ. of Louisville) Or were you just referring to loan financial aid ?

timbs4339
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Re: Best Bargain...or Best School?

Postby timbs4339 » Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:26 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Great post, but apparently you didn't interact with Univ. of Denver adcomms who did run-out of scholarship money. Also, wasn't a law school admissions officer fired last cycle for over awarding scholarships ? (Univ. of Louisville) Or were you just referring to loan financial aid ?


"We're out of scholarship money" is the law school equivalent of "you're taking food out of the mouths of my kids!" Last cycle there were several schools who "discovered" more scholarship money after they had told applicants they were out.

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jenesaislaw
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Re: Best Bargain...or Best School?

Postby jenesaislaw » Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:05 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Great post, but apparently you didn't interact with Univ. of Denver adcomms who did run-out of scholarship money. Also, wasn't a law school admissions officer fired last cycle for over awarding scholarships ? (Univ. of Louisville) Or were you just referring to loan financial aid ?


Louisville actually proves the point that schools don't technically run out of money.

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Rahviveh
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Re: Best Bargain...or Best School?

Postby Rahviveh » Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:54 pm

timbs4339 wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:Great post, but apparently you didn't interact with Univ. of Denver adcomms who did run-out of scholarship money. Also, wasn't a law school admissions officer fired last cycle for over awarding scholarships ? (Univ. of Louisville) Or were you just referring to loan financial aid ?


"We're out of scholarship money" is the law school equivalent of "you're taking food out of the mouths of my kids!" Last cycle there were several schools who "discovered" more scholarship money after they had told applicants they were out.


Northwestern is one.

Hutz_and_Goodman
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Re: Best Bargain...or Best School?

Postby Hutz_and_Goodman » Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:08 pm

I created a formula to evaluate all the factors (costs/% big law/living expenses/exit options), and it basically boils down to this: it's worth 20k in debt for every 10% increased chance of big law. So attending a school for free, you could theoretically go anywhere in the top 100. From there up, I would only take on 20k in debt (this is excluding COL) for a 10% chance at big law. This means that for non-YHS but T14, anywhere from 80k-100k is what I estimate is the maximum reasonable to take on. There are also a lot of schools where it is irrational to attend even for free, but I'm assuming here were are only talking about the top 100 law schools.

anyway, this is a roundabout way of saying if:

school A rank 20th in country, debt 80k, chance of big law 25%
school B rank 70th in country, debt 0, chance of big law 5-10%

then I say B all the way (difference in cost is 80k; difference in big law chances is only 30-40k worth)

however, if:

school A rank 10th in country, debt 80k, chance of big law 40%
school B rank 25th in country, debt 45k, chance of big law 20%

now its school A all the way
(difference in cost is 35k; difference in big law chances is worth 40k).

I haven't seen anyone post this on TLS, but i think this is good short hand for gauging the relative value of different options (there are always personal factors that affect the decision, and don't under any circumstances attend a non-T14 school unless willing to practice in that region).

Hutz_and_Goodman
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Re: Best Bargain...or Best School?

Postby Hutz_and_Goodman » Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:20 pm

kdev1203 wrote:I'm a non-URM female with a 4.16/163. Yes, I know, reverse-splitters suck and I should have retaken. But here's the situation. I'm waiting to head back from Duke after applying Accelerated ED, but I just found out today that I got a full-ride to Tulsa. Obviously, if I get into Duke, I have to go, but if not, how seriously should I consider the Tulsa offer?

I think I'd like living in Oklahoma, and I certainly like the "free" quality. I know it's too early to tell (since I'm waiting on other offers), but what do y'all think? Should I take the bargain or go for the best school I get into, regardless of price? My initial impulse is that if I don't get into a T14, the only reasonable decision is to take the free deal.

Other schools I'm applying to RD:

Notre Dame
Washington and Lee
Penn State
Roger Williams
UVA
Lewis and Clark
Arizona
Wake Forest
Pitt
Denver

Any others I should consider? Thoughts? Comments?



Also, I really think you should consider this (look around TLS). You may well get into Duke because of your crazy high gap, but you could attend probably multiple schools on your list for free, and that vs. sticker at Duke would not even be close.

BigZuck
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Re: Best Bargain...or Best School?

Postby BigZuck » Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:55 pm

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:
kdev1203 wrote:I'm a non-URM female with a 4.16/163. Yes, I know, reverse-splitters suck and I should have retaken. But here's the situation. I'm waiting to head back from Duke after applying Accelerated ED, but I just found out today that I got a full-ride to Tulsa. Obviously, if I get into Duke, I have to go, but if not, how seriously should I consider the Tulsa offer?

I think I'd like living in Oklahoma, and I certainly like the "free" quality. I know it's too early to tell (since I'm waiting on other offers), but what do y'all think? Should I take the bargain or go for the best school I get into, regardless of price? My initial impulse is that if I don't get into a T14, the only reasonable decision is to take the free deal.

Other schools I'm applying to RD:

Notre Dame
Washington and Lee
Penn State
Roger Williams
UVA
Lewis and Clark
Arizona
Wake Forest
Pitt
Denver

Any others I should consider? Thoughts? Comments?



Also, I really think you should consider this (look around TLS). You may well get into Duke because of your crazy high gap, but you could attend probably multiple schools on your list for free, and that vs. sticker at Duke would not even be close.


Wut? All of them? You trollin' bro? According to LST Duke's employment stats when you consider big law, clerkships, and the like put it somewhere in the top 8 or so schools (maybe higher). It blows all these schools out of the water and I understand the rationale behind taking the money over sticker but I don't think every single one of those is a smarter choice than Duke.

OP, please, please, please retake.

kdev1203
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Re: Best Bargain...or Best School?

Postby kdev1203 » Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:08 pm

BigZuck wrote:
Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:
kdev1203 wrote:I'm a non-URM female with a 4.16/163. Yes, I know, reverse-splitters suck and I should have retaken. But here's the situation. I'm waiting to head back from Duke after applying Accelerated ED, but I just found out today that I got a full-ride to Tulsa. Obviously, if I get into Duke, I have to go, but if not, how seriously should I consider the Tulsa offer?

I think I'd like living in Oklahoma, and I certainly like the "free" quality. I know it's too early to tell (since I'm waiting on other offers), but what do y'all think? Should I take the bargain or go for the best school I get into, regardless of price? My initial impulse is that if I don't get into a T14, the only reasonable decision is to take the free deal.

Other schools I'm applying to RD:

Notre Dame
Washington and Lee
Penn State
Roger Williams
UVA
Lewis and Clark
Arizona
Wake Forest
Pitt
Denver

Any others I should consider? Thoughts? Comments?



Also, I really think you should consider this (look around TLS). You may well get into Duke because of your crazy high gap, but you could attend probably multiple schools on your list for free, and that vs. sticker at Duke would not even be close.


Wut? All of them? You trollin' bro? According to LST Duke's employment stats when you consider big law, clerkships, and the like put it somewhere in the top 8 or so schools (maybe higher). It blows all these schools out of the water and I understand the rationale behind taking the money over sticker but I don't think every single one of those is a smarter choice than Duke.

OP, please, please, please retake.


Okay. If I don't get into Duke ED, I'll retake and apply to the rest of the T14 late in the cycle.

FloridaCoastalorbust
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Re: Best Bargain...or Best School?

Postby FloridaCoastalorbust » Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:51 pm

More Tulsa grads are hired 9 months out in JD preferred jobs than Gtown grads. Tulsa isn't a great place though (lived there), especially where the law school is located (worst location of any law school I have ever visited). But if you are down with the suburb life, it is a great place. Good schools, low cost of living, etc.

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jenesaislaw
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Re: Best Bargain...or Best School?

Postby jenesaislaw » Thu Nov 15, 2012 11:00 am

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:I created a formula to evaluate all the factors (costs/% big law/living expenses/exit options), and it basically boils down to this: it's worth 20k in debt for every 10% increased chance of big law. So attending a school for free, you could theoretically go anywhere in the top 100. From there up, I would only take on 20k in debt (this is excluding COL) for a 10% chance at big law. This means that for non-YHS but T14, anywhere from 80k-100k is what I estimate is the maximum reasonable to take on. There are also a lot of schools where it is irrational to attend even for free, but I'm assuming here were are only talking about the top 100 law schools.

anyway, this is a roundabout way of saying if:

school A rank 20th in country, debt 80k, chance of big law 25%
school B rank 70th in country, debt 0, chance of big law 5-10%

then I say B all the way (difference in cost is 80k; difference in big law chances is only 30-40k worth)

however, if:

school A rank 10th in country, debt 80k, chance of big law 40%
school B rank 25th in country, debt 45k, chance of big law 20%

now its school A all the way
(difference in cost is 35k; difference in big law chances is worth 40k).

I haven't seen anyone post this on TLS, but i think this is good short hand for gauging the relative value of different options (there are always personal factors that affect the decision, and don't under any circumstances attend a non-T14 school unless willing to practice in that region).


How do you step outside of the relativity to find out whether something is actually a good decision?

WhatOurBodiesAreFor
Posts: 369
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Re: Best Bargain...or Best School?

Postby WhatOurBodiesAreFor » Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:25 am

I'd like to consider my cycle over at this point, but I find myself still looking around for schools to apply to. I'm done with the top 25 or so, but I'm wondering if a school outside of the top 25 would be worth going to over a low T-14 or a T-18 if I got a full-ride. My GPA and LSAT is above the 75s at most schools out of the top 30

I know this is an annoying question, but I really don't have any other resource besides TLS so I always like coming to you guys :)

I really don't care much about location. I just want to be have plenty of options upon graduate. That said, I kind of tend to want to move around a lot, so a school with national and international pull would probably be best.

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sinfiery
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Re: Best Bargain...or Best School?

Postby sinfiery » Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:32 pm

WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:I'd like to consider my cycle over at this point, but I find myself still looking around for schools to apply to. I'm done with the top 25 or so, but I'm wondering if a school outside of the top 25 would be worth going to over a low T-14 or a T-18 if I got a full-ride. My GPA and LSAT is above the 75s at most schools out of the top 30

I know this is an annoying question, but I really don't have any other resource besides TLS so I always like coming to you guys :)

I really don't care much about location. I just want to be have plenty of options upon graduate. That said, I kind of tend to want to move around a lot, so a school with national and international pull would probably be best.

I dunno but mirin tar.

LSTfan
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Re: Best Bargain...or Best School?

Postby LSTfan » Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:11 pm

.
Last edited by LSTfan on Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

WhatOurBodiesAreFor
Posts: 369
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:23 pm

Re: Best Bargain...or Best School?

Postby WhatOurBodiesAreFor » Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:59 pm

sinfiery wrote:
WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:I'd like to consider my cycle over at this point, but I find myself still looking around for schools to apply to. I'm done with the top 25 or so, but I'm wondering if a school outside of the top 25 would be worth going to over a low T-14 or a T-18 if I got a full-ride. My GPA and LSAT is above the 75s at most schools out of the top 30

I know this is an annoying question, but I really don't have any other resource besides TLS so I always like coming to you guys :)

I really don't care much about location. I just want to be have plenty of options upon graduate. That said, I kind of tend to want to move around a lot, so a school with national and international pull would probably be best.

I dunno but mirin tar.


?

jstr00az
Posts: 86
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:36 am

Re: Best Bargain...or Best School?

Postby jstr00az » Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:27 pm

kdev1203 wrote:I'm a non-URM female with a 4.16/163. Yes, I know, reverse-splitters suck and I should have retaken. But here's the situation. I'm waiting to head back from Duke after applying Accelerated ED, but I just found out today that I got a full-ride to Tulsa. Obviously, if I get into Duke, I have to go, but if not, how seriously should I consider the Tulsa offer?

I think I'd like living in Oklahoma, and I certainly like the "free" quality. I know it's too early to tell (since I'm waiting on other offers), but what do y'all think? Should I take the bargain or go for the best school I get into, regardless of price? My initial impulse is that if I don't get into a T14, the only reasonable decision is to take the free deal.

Other schools I'm applying to RD:

Notre Dame
Washington and Lee
Penn State
Roger Williams
UVA
Lewis and Clark
Arizona
Wake Forest
Pitt
Denver

Any others I should consider? Thoughts? Comments?


Look, while we're doing anecdotes, I know of a Duke Law Grad from 2012 who passed the bar and is interning at the local PD's office. He's licensed. He's a lawyer. He's unpaid - except for the crappy stipend they give him at Duke. If that's a possible outcome and Duke - and the guy is very smart, and seems energetic and competent - then looking at Wake Forest or DENVER is ludicrous, unless they are paying you enormous amounts of money to attend. You should not go to Duke "regardless of prices". And you shouldn't go to any of these schools regardless of price. Go to Harvard or Yale regardless of price.




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