Least Portable T-14 Law Degree

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Which T-14 Law Degree is the Least Portable?

University of Chicago
8
2%
NYU
13
4%
UC Berkeley
27
8%
University of Pennsylvania
7
2%
University of Virginia
33
10%
University of Michigan
28
8%
Duke University
37
11%
Northwestern University
27
8%
Cornell University
76
22%
Georgetown University
84
25%
 
Total votes: 340

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bizzybone1313
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Re: Least Portable T-14 Law Degree

Postby bizzybone1313 » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:46 pm

paratactical wrote:How has no one pointed out how insane it is to think living a 6 hour drive from somewhere gives you ties to that place?

OP - You do not have ties to Colorado. Growing up/living a 6-7 hour drive from Denver is not ties to Denver. Also, you should not pay sticker at a T14 if you want to do "civil rights, immigration or plantiff [sic] side employment law."


I know the 6 or 7 hour drive argument is a little ridiculous. But what I would basically be telling CO employers is that I am not really a flight risk, because my family is so close by. Its not like Colorado is clear across the country from Texas. Plus, I am going to do a summer gig in Colorado my 1L year. Even if I end up at HYS and would be able to get a paying summer gig somewhere else, I will do it for free in Colorado. My goal is to end up in Colorado no matter what. Trust me-- I won't be paying sticker at a T-14 with my stats and considering that my parents this year will make about $30,000.

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iMisto
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Re: Least Portable T-14 Law Degree

Postby iMisto » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:48 pm

bizzybone1313 wrote:I am surprised Virginia hasn't received more votes than Michigan or Duke as being the least portable. Don't Michigan and Duke have more lay prestige than Virginia which is part of what makes a school portable in the first place?


I was wondering the same thing... I voted UVA.

Are we talking portability in BigLaw? Or portability in general?

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Least Portable T-14 Law Degree

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:50 pm

OP, it was kind of silly to leave off Columbia on the theory that it is more portable than Chicago or any other T14. Further, "portability" is just a word people throw around to justify going to one school over another when their real reason for doing so is simply the US News rankings.

As for your ability to get a job in Colorado, any T14 coupled with ties to Colorado "can" get you a summer associate position there. After you understand that, comparing and contrasting schools becomes more complicated. While any T14 "can'" get you that market, once you remove HYS, all major Colorado firms likely OCI at Chicago, Northwestern, and probably Michigan and Georgetown (check nalp and firm websites to see which one gets the most Colorado employers at OCI). Your chances to interview with employers from that market in OCI would be highest at those schools because (1) employers from that market would most likely OCI at those four schools as compared to other T14s and (2) most of your classmates would not use bids on Colorado employers. Thus, if you use a lot of bids on Colorado firms/offices, you would likely be able to interview with many of your selections in that market -> that would obviously maximize your ability to interview with Colorado employers at OCI. This is important because, as you probably already know, mass mailing is a crapshoot even from a T14.

Of course, you need to see which of those four schools gets the most Colorado employers at OCI and you need to have median or above grades.

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bizzybone1313
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Re: Least Portable T-14 Law Degree

Postby bizzybone1313 » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:52 pm

iMisto wrote:
bizzybone1313 wrote:I am surprised Virginia hasn't received more votes than Michigan or Duke as being the least portable. Don't Michigan and Duke have more lay prestige than Virginia which is part of what makes a school portable in the first place?


I was wondering the same thing... I voted UVA.

Are we talking portability in BigLaw? Or portability in general?


Portability in general. Even though Georgetown may have the worst Big Law placement power, one would think the degree would still be fairly portable because of its lay prestige. GT graduates could get into politics, public policy or other such jobs, right? It seems everyone is taking my poll question more in terms of Big Law.

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paratactical
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Re: Least Portable T-14 Law Degree

Postby paratactical » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:53 pm

bizzybone1313 wrote:
paratactical wrote:How has no one pointed out how insane it is to think living a 6 hour drive from somewhere gives you ties to that place?

OP - You do not have ties to Colorado. Growing up/living a 6-7 hour drive from Denver is not ties to Denver. Also, you should not pay sticker at a T14 if you want to do "civil rights, immigration or plantiff [sic] side employment law."


I know the 6 or 7 hour drive argument is a little ridiculous. But what I would basically be telling CO employers is that I am not really a flight risk, because my family is so close by. Its not like Colorado is clear across the country from Texas. Plus, I am going to do a summer gig in Colorado my 1L year. Even if I end up at HYS and would be able to get a paying summer gig somewhere else, I will do it for free in Colorado. My goal is to end up in Colorado no matter what. Trust me-- I won't be paying sticker at a T-14 with my stats and considering that my parents this year will make about $30,000.

Your family is not close by if they are a 6 or 7 hour drive away. That's like saying everyone who lives in or grew up in NYC has ties to Boston, Philadelphia, Washington D.C., and Virginia Beach. It's totally absurd.

You will not be considered to have ties in the traditional sense of the word. You can also not count on getting a summer gig in Colorado for your 1L year when you don't even know what law school you are attending.

It's great that your goal is Colorado, but you appear to be completely ignorant as to what ties mean. Good luck convincing Colorado firms that you want to be there, but don't expect anyone to believe that you actually have ties to Colorado.

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moonman157
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Re: Least Portable T-14 Law Degree

Postby moonman157 » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:53 pm

bizzybone1313 wrote:
JO 14 wrote:As far as signaling out Colorado as the objective, hard to say. As far as portability in general, I had a chance to go to Michigan but decided against it mainly because I thought it was not portable (as opposed to other choices). T-14 northeastern schools in or near big cities are better suited for BL and (IMHO) a bit borderline when it comes to secondary markets (away from the northeast) like Denver, Oklahoma City, Tampa, etc.


I am surprised Virginia hasn't received more votes than Michigan or Duke as being the least portable. Don't Michigan and Duke have more lay prestige than Virginia which is part of what makes a school portable in the first place? Yeah.....I am not sure about schools, such as Penn or Cornell because of their northeastern locations. I would consider attending if they throw a lot of money at me though. I would pay sticker for Columbia. I am assuming Columbia could get me to Colorado almost as much as HYS.


Send out the bat signal for BruceWayne

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bizzybone1313
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Re: Least Portable T-14 Law Degree

Postby bizzybone1313 » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:56 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:OP, it was kind of silly to leave off Columbia on the theory that it is more portable than Chicago or any other T14. Further, "portability" is just a word people throw around to justify going to one school over another when their real reason for doing so is simply the US News rankings.


Doesn't portability loosely correlate with the prestige of the school? It sure seems that way. The poll only allows ten items, so I had to leave the four most elite schools (YHSC) off of it. It would have been dumb to leave other T-14 schools off the poll as opposed to YHSC.

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Lawquacious
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Re: Least Portable T-14 Law Degree

Postby Lawquacious » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:57 pm

The results of this thread are off in my opinion, at least in terms of reflecting how well a degree from these schools is going to be respected on the other side of the country. Rankings and portability are not coterminous, nor are overall job placement and portability.

NYU, and U Virginia are great schools (objectively stronger in a number of ways at this point in time than Georgetown and Cornell), but as a general matter these schools have less name-recognition on the West Coast or West generally than either Georgetown or Cornell in my opinion. So for small firms, government work, or public interest work I think G and C will have better portability and be afforded more respect on the other side of the country (because the average person hiring for these positions, or the average client seeking services, will have more familiarity with G or C). For biglaw--large national firms--it is probably a different story though, because hiring committees are more likely to be informed of all the current nuances of national rankings of the schools etc. But even then, I doubt that NYU or U Virginia (especially) have the edge over G and C that they tend to have on the East Coast.
Last edited by Lawquacious on Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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skers
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Re: Least Portable T-14 Law Degree

Postby skers » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:02 pm

Just reiterating. OP, you don't have ties to CO. If you want them, go to CU.

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Lawquacious
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Re: Least Portable T-14 Law Degree

Postby Lawquacious » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:04 pm

TemporarySaint wrote:Just reiterating. OP, you don't have ties to CO. If you want them, go to CU.


+1. And I think in CO this is ESPECIALLY important. For CO I would take CU with scholly over anything other than YHS.

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bizzybone1313
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Re: Least Portable T-14 Law Degree

Postby bizzybone1313 » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:06 pm

I know I don't have ties to Colorado. I know what ties mean (grew up in the state, went to undergrad there or worked there). I just wish to settle down there really, really bad. So, my goal is to figure out a way to make it there.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Least Portable T-14 Law Degree

Postby Tiago Splitter » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:23 pm

bizzybone1313 wrote:I know I don't have ties to Colorado. I know what ties mean (grew up in the state, went to undergrad there or worked there). I just wish to settle down there really, really bad. So, my goal is to figure out a way to make it there.


With your URM status and relatively high GPA you need to take gun hard for a high LSAT score to make one of HYS a lock. Don't settle for a score that barely sneaks you in to the bottom of the T-14.

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skers
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Re: Least Portable T-14 Law Degree

Postby skers » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:25 pm

bizzybone1313 wrote:I know I don't have ties to Colorado. I know what ties mean (grew up in the state, went to undergrad there or worked there). I just wish to settle down there really, really bad. So, my goal is to figure out a way to make it there.


T-14 isn't the cure all for deficiencies you might have. If you look at the CO hiring threads from the last couple years, CO was a pretty fucking tough nut to crack even with good grades, ties, and t14. Going to CU is probably your best bet if you're diehard Colorado. Understand though that good CO employment could still be tough to come by.

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bizzybone1313
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Re: Least Portable T-14 Law Degree

Postby bizzybone1313 » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:30 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
bizzybone1313 wrote:I know I don't have ties to Colorado. I know what ties mean (grew up in the state, went to undergrad there or worked there). I just wish to settle down there really, really bad. So, my goal is to figure out a way to make it there.


With your URM status and relatively high GPA you need to take gun hard for a high LSAT score to make one of HYS a lock. Don't settle for a score that barely sneaks you in to the bottom of the T-14.


I have been pushing back the LSAT for a long time for this very reason. I know I one test away from H(YTTT)SC. Yale is overrated. :D. In fact for me, it goes like this: HCS (very close tie between C and S)Y. On that note, its time to go study.

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bk1
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Re: Least Portable T-14 Law Degree

Postby bk1 » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:32 pm

bizzybone1313 wrote:I have been pushing back the LSAT for a long time for this very reason. I know I one test away from H(YTTT)SC. Yale is overrated. :D. In fact for me, it goes like this: HCS (very close tie between C and S)Y. On that note, its time to go study.


For you? Well good thing you're the one who is going to be hiring yourself down the road.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Least Portable T-14 Law Degree

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:59 pm

bizzybone1313 wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:OP, it was kind of silly to leave off Columbia on the theory that it is more portable than Chicago or any other T14. Further, "portability" is just a word people throw around to justify going to one school over another when their real reason for doing so is simply the US News rankings.


Doesn't portability loosely correlate with the prestige of the school? It sure seems that way. The poll only allows ten items, so I had to leave the four most elite schools (YHSC) off of it. It would have been dumb to leave other T-14 schools off the poll as opposed to YHSC.


I agree as far as leaving off HYS is concerned, but Columbia is a different story. Regardless, the ability to get a desirable job in any given market (particularly not NYC) revolves around (1) ties to the market of the applicant, (2) schools attended by the applicant, (3) grades attained at schools attended by the applicant, (4) schools attended by individuals that already work at the firm/government entity/etc. and (5) the ties/schools/grades that other applicants to the same job hold. Thus, it is pretty much a crapshoot at desirable smaller markets (i.e. not NYC), as any random variable can prevent you from getting a job.

For example, a Columbia graduate with ties to a secondary market (undergrad) with above median grades and a Virginia graduate with ties to the market (K12) and similar grades apply for the same job, and the Virginia graduate gets the job. Does this mean Virginia is more portable? Certainly not. Many factors could have caused this outcome including: (1) a disproportionate amount of partners at the firm graduated from Virginia, (2) the hiring committee may have reasoned that the graduate from Virginia had stronger ties, (3) the committee may have already filled their summer class with too many graduates from Columbia, etc. My point is that "portability" is a hollow term that does not really mean anything.

While portability is hollow, proximity of the T14s to major markets is quite important. But we are not really talking about that here.

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twenty
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Re: Least Portable T-14 Law Degree

Postby twenty » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:16 pm

My question is, where the frack is BruceWayne?

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worldtraveler
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Re: Least Portable T-14 Law Degree

Postby worldtraveler » Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:58 pm

So you want to live in Colorado AND practice specific subsets of law which don't really have a lot of positions? This is not a great plan. If you want immigration, you will likely have to be more flexible. CO only has one immigration court and it's tiny. There simply aren't lots of immigration non-profits and the like in the state.

As for civil rights and plaintiff side employment...good luck. It's hard enough to get that stuff anywhere, let alone in a state without a huge legal market.

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kalvano
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Re: Least Portable T-14 Law Degree

Postby kalvano » Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:48 pm

LOL.

You're not getting Colorado. The market is minuscule, they hate people from Texas, and you have no ties. Read some threads about Colorado in the Legal Employment forum. There are people in the top few percentiles in their class at CU who have lived in Colorado all their lives and can't find legal employment there. It may be the the toughest market to crack. Certainly one of the top five.

Did I mention they hate people from Texas?

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bizzybone1313
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Re: Least Portable T-14 Law Degree

Postby bizzybone1313 » Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:52 pm

worldtraveler wrote:So you want to live in Colorado AND practice specific subsets of law which don't really have a lot of positions? This is not a great plan. If you want immigration, you will likely have to be more flexible. CO only has one immigration court and it's tiny. There simply aren't lots of immigration non-profits and the like in the state.

As for civil rights and plaintiff side employment...good luck. It's hard enough to get that stuff anywhere, let alone in a state without a huge legal market.


If I have to practice energy/mining law or something else, I guess I will do it. I wouldn't mind being a prosecutor. I know that is contrary to the goals of most people on TLS, but there is more to life than making money.

kalvano wrote:LOL.

You're not getting Colorado. The market is minuscule, they hate people from Texas, and you have no ties. Read some threads about Colorado in the Legal Employment forum. There are people in the top few percentiles in their class at CU who have lived in Colorado all their lives and can't find legal employment there. It may be the the toughest market to crack. Certainly one of the top five.

Did I mention they hate people from Texas?


Why don't they like Texans? I have never heard that before.

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paratactical
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Re: Least Portable T-14 Law Degree

Postby paratactical » Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:55 pm

What goal is more important to you: practicing the kind of law you want to practice or living in Colorado?

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bizzybone1313
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Re: Least Portable T-14 Law Degree

Postby bizzybone1313 » Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:55 pm

bk1 wrote:
bizzybone1313 wrote:I have been pushing back the LSAT for a long time for this very reason. I know I one test away from H(YTTT)SC. Yale is overrated. :D. In fact for me, it goes like this: HCS (very close tie between C and S)Y. On that note, its time to go study.


For you? Well good thing you're the one who is going to be hiring yourself down the road.


Harvard has produced more leaders and outstanding alumni than Yale (I know, I know its in part because they are a diploma mill). Yale is overrated though. Harvard carries more weight in non-legal jobs.

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kalvano
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Re: Least Portable T-14 Law Degree

Postby kalvano » Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:56 pm

bizzybone1313 wrote:
Why don't they like Texans? I have never heard that before.



Because Texans generally tend to act like jackasses when they take their annual two weeks in Colorado to sit around and tell people from Colorado how nice it is there, but how way more awesome Texas is.

IAFG is right. There are maybe 50 SA spots in Colorado. The market is tiny, and they are extremely wary of outsiders coming in to spend A summer in Colorado then never coming back, as that used to happen all the time.

Even if you make it to HYS, I wouldn't count on cracking Colorado.
Last edited by kalvano on Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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bizzybone1313
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Re: Least Portable T-14 Law Degree

Postby bizzybone1313 » Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:57 pm

paratactical wrote:What goal is more important to you: practicing the kind of law you want to practice or living in Colorado?


Living in Colorado is my main goal, which I have always known is going to be a very uphill battle. Hopefully I can attend a super-elite school and parachute into the state.

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bizzybone1313
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Re: Least Portable T-14 Law Degree

Postby bizzybone1313 » Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:00 pm

kalvano wrote:Because Texans generally tend to act like jackasses when they take their annual two weeks in Colorado to sit around and tell people from Colorado how nice it is there, but how way more awesome Texas is.

IAFG is right. There are maybe 50 SA spots in Colorado. The market is tiny, and they are extremely wary of outsiders coming in to spend A summer in Colorado then never coming back, as that used to happen all the time.

Even if you make it to HYS, I wouldn't count on cracking Colorado.


I understand. Having our Governor run for president didn't help any. A lot of Texans do have the mindset of our state being the greatest thing since sliced bread was invented. Every state has its flaws and weaknesses. Unfornuately for us, we produced people like George W. Bush and Rick Perry.




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