Big law gambling

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BruceWayne
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Re: Big law gambling

Postby BruceWayne » Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:31 pm

justonemoregame wrote:Of the top-50 schools that are non-T14, the following are the most generous according to LSAC (figures do not count this year's entering class and their scholarship totals):

School (% of students with at least half-ride) / (% with at least full-ride)

Alabama 32.3 / 16.0
Arizona 27.6 / 9.3
Arizona State 20.9 / 4.9
Boston Univ. 28.3 / 2.0
UC-Davis 32.9 / 1.0
Emory 35.2 / 2.2
George Wash. 21.7 / 10.2
Georgia 34.1 / 1.5
Illinois 41.7 / 4.8
Indiana 41.7 / 25.6
Minnesota 34.9 / 6.8
Vanderbilt 26.0 / 3.5
Wake Forest 24.8 / 6.3
Washington Univ. 32.7 / 1.9
Washington and Lee 26.5 / 5.1

These are the only non-T14 schools in the top 50 with greater than 20% of the student body on at least a half-ride. (As a side note, YHS are the only T-14s).

I suspect the "near full-ride" stuff you hear on TLS is largely myth/regurgitated advice. I know of the 120K offers from Wash U and Wash & Lee, but outside of these and maybe a few others, it seems like the "significant" scholarships people refer to are 50-60% discounts. It's impossible to suss accurate data out of LSAC's numbers.


What this list tells me is that if you want to work in the southeast and are from there and considering non HYS top 14 at sticker--don't. Just go to one of Bama, Emory, UGA, Vanderbilt, or Wake Forest for cheap.

mr.hands
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Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:23 pm

Re: Big law gambling

Postby mr.hands » Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:03 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
justonemoregame wrote:Of the top-50 schools that are non-T14, the following are the most generous according to LSAC (figures do not count this year's entering class and their scholarship totals):

School (% of students with at least half-ride) / (% with at least full-ride)

Alabama 32.3 / 16.0
Arizona 27.6 / 9.3
Arizona State 20.9 / 4.9
Boston Univ. 28.3 / 2.0
UC-Davis 32.9 / 1.0
Emory 35.2 / 2.2
George Wash. 21.7 / 10.2
Georgia 34.1 / 1.5
Illinois 41.7 / 4.8
Indiana 41.7 / 25.6
Minnesota 34.9 / 6.8
Vanderbilt 26.0 / 3.5
Wake Forest 24.8 / 6.3
Washington Univ. 32.7 / 1.9
Washington and Lee 26.5 / 5.1

These are the only non-T14 schools in the top 50 with greater than 20% of the student body on at least a half-ride. (As a side note, YHS are the only T-14s).

I suspect the "near full-ride" stuff you hear on TLS is largely myth/regurgitated advice. I know of the 120K offers from Wash U and Wash & Lee, but outside of these and maybe a few others, it seems like the "significant" scholarships people refer to are 50-60% discounts. It's impossible to suss accurate data out of LSAC's numbers.


What this list tells me is that if you want to work in the southeast and are from there and considering non HYS top 14 at sticker--don't. Just go to one of Bama, Emory, UGA, Vanderbilt, or Wake Forest for cheap.


I tend to agree. I'm not sure UVA or Duke at sticker are worth it (Vandy at sticker definitely isnt worth it). UGA, Wake, and Bama seem to be the best bet. If you land a job out of one of those schools, you shouldn't have too hard a time servicing your debt.

That said, if you get ~50k+ in scholarship at UVA or Duke, take it. A 1/3 scholarship or more at a Southern T14 seems easily worth it.

forthewin2012
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Re: Big law gambling

Postby forthewin2012 » Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:32 am

I think I will apply UVA/Duke, and also hit some of these schools where I have a good chance at full tuition, and then evaluate options. for some reason i love the idea of going for free, even though i will have to absolutely kill it to get big law, just bc i will be so pissed at myself to go the other way, and i know that even if i get a big law SA i may get no offered and if i get the job the average time in these positions is like 3 years.

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IAFG
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Re: Big law gambling

Postby IAFG » Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:41 am

forthewin2012 wrote:I think I will apply UVA/Duke, and also hit some of these schools where I have a good chance at full tuition, and then evaluate options. for some reason i love the idea of going for free, even though i will have to absolutely kill it to get big law, just bc i will be so pissed at myself to go the other way, and i know that even if i get a big law SA i may get no offered and if i get the job the average time in these positions is like 3 years.

1) Apply broadly to see if you get scholly offers to leverage (not just to 2 T14s)

2) People don't leave after 3 years to wait tables. Do more research before you make a decision based on that.

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unc0mm0n1
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Re: Big law gambling

Postby unc0mm0n1 » Sun Oct 28, 2012 12:02 pm

bdubs wrote:You should run the numbers on this. AFAIK there is no school that will offer you a full scholarship that includes COL. You will be giving up not only 13-14 months of your life, but also 13-14 months of salary and career advancement in another job. Your chances of getting biglaw out of a school like W&M are so small that it seems like almost as big of a gamble as T14 with a small scholarship (which is what you're probably looking at otherwise).


I wish that people would stop saying this. You have to pay COL no matter if you work or go to law school. It's not some mythical thing that only happens in law school. You have no idea what type of job this guy has. He could be spinning his wheels as a factory worker in NYC and the COL there could be 3 times more than middle of nowhere Virginia. Maybe his family lives close by and he doesn't have to pay anything for rent while his job in NYC he's pays 1500/month. Without figuring out how much income you're giving up, how long you plan to stay at your current job, if there is advancement potential, do you hate the job thus increasing your chances of quitting or getting fired, how much is your COL currently and how much will it be in Law School and many other questions I don't think anyone can give you an accurate answer. The only things you're going to get is TLS wisdom like the stuff above that could be relevant to your situation but also could have nothing to do with you.

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unc0mm0n1
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Re: Big law gambling

Postby unc0mm0n1 » Sun Oct 28, 2012 12:04 pm

IAFG wrote:
forthewin2012 wrote:I think I will apply UVA/Duke, and also hit some of these schools where I have a good chance at full tuition, and then evaluate options. for some reason i love the idea of going for free, even though i will have to absolutely kill it to get big law, just bc i will be so pissed at myself to go the other way, and i know that even if i get a big law SA i may get no offered and if i get the job the average time in these positions is like 3 years.

1) Apply broadly to see if you get scholly offers to leverage (not just to 2 T14s)

2) People don't leave after 3 years to wait tables. Do more research before you make a decision based on that.


They don't..... Well there goes my long term plans :(

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Shammis
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Re: Big law gambling

Postby Shammis » Sun Oct 28, 2012 12:38 pm

Do you want to be a lawyer or not. IF you are doing it only for the paycheck, do something else b/c the misery of Lawl school is not worth it. Go to B-school or work or something if you dont actually want to be a lawyer. Dropping out on a fully scholly b/c you missed the OCI boat is stupid if you have otherwise good credentials/class rank. I personally know people that landed biglaw during 3L or a year out of practice. Knew someone that was a contract attorney for a year than got picked up by a V100 firm. This whole OCI or bust thing is ridiculously stupid (unless you really are only doing it for the money, then you will be miserable ha).

bdubs
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Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 2:23 pm

Re: Big law gambling

Postby bdubs » Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:34 pm

unc0mm0n1 wrote:
bdubs wrote:You should run the numbers on this. AFAIK there is no school that will offer you a full scholarship that includes COL. You will be giving up not only 13-14 months of your life, but also 13-14 months of salary and career advancement in another job. Your chances of getting biglaw out of a school like W&M are so small that it seems like almost as big of a gamble as T14 with a small scholarship (which is what you're probably looking at otherwise).


I wish that people would stop saying this. You have to pay COL no matter if you work or go to law school. It's not some mythical thing that only happens in law school. You have no idea what type of job this guy has. He could be spinning his wheels as a factory worker in NYC and the COL there could be 3 times more than middle of nowhere Virginia. Maybe his family lives close by and he doesn't have to pay anything for rent while his job in NYC he's pays 1500/month. Without figuring out how much income you're giving up, how long you plan to stay at your current job, if there is advancement potential, do you hate the job thus increasing your chances of quitting or getting fired, how much is your COL currently and how much will it be in Law School and many other questions I don't think anyone can give you an accurate answer. The only things you're going to get is TLS wisdom like the stuff above that could be relevant to your situation but also could have nothing to do with you.


Just because you always have COL expenses doesn't mean that borrowing at 8% to cover your COL is the same as working to finance your life. Imagine going to a school with a $20k COL budget, borrowing the entire amount, striking out and going back to your dead end job. As you point out that dead end job might be relatively low pay in a high COL area. That means it's going to take you a long time to pay back $20k because you're not earning enough to pay it down quickly. You've basically wasted a year of your life and burdened yourself with a high interest, non-dischargeable debt but wound up in the same crappy spot you were in before.

I think the better "gamble" if you actually want to make one and are in a dead end job is to go full tilt. Going to a T14 and relying on IBR if you strike out winds up looking pretty similar in a lot of downside scenarios, but the upside of a T14 is much larger.

I agree that OP needs to do his/her own assessment because a lot of these things depend on a lot of individual factors.




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