T25 vs Cheap Regional Presence

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Which school?

George Washington
7
23%
Georgetown (If I even get accepted)
10
32%
UofA Fayetteville
5
16%
UofA Little Rock
3
10%
Other
6
19%
 
Total votes: 31

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: T25 vs Cheap Regional Presence

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:55 pm

Apply to every T18 with an LSAT median below 171 with the exception of Berkeley and Northwestern (if you don't have experience).

However, simply because you are accepted to a T14 at sticker or close to it doesn't mean that you should pay that much for the privilege to attend it.

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JCougar
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Re: T25 vs Cheap Regional Presence

Postby JCougar » Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:59 pm

wwrhodes wrote:I figured they weren't reliable number, but I still have to assume that the median salaries would be pretty different. Maybe realistically more like $100,000 to $50,000.
Do you think this would justify the cost for one, both, or neither of the circumstances:
1) Stay/move in/to Arkansas and work in Little Rock (~250,000 population city)
2) Stay/move in/to DC/NY/etc. big city and try for big law.


That is absolutely not a safe assumption. I guarantee you that people with median grades at GW are struggling to find jobs right now, and if they do find one, it's most likely to be one paying $50-60K/year. Those stats are not even close to reality.

WUSTL will probably give you a 50% scholarship for that LSAT, and is closer to Arkansas, but median students here are also kind of up shit creek -- no better than GW for sure.

Your best bet is probably to take a full scholly somewhere, but a 171 LSAT at those Arkansas schools also seems to be shooting low. Also, keep in mind your COL in DC over 3 years will probably cost you an additional $30K over what you would pay elsewhere.

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wwrhodes
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Re: T25 vs Cheap Regional Presence

Postby wwrhodes » Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:40 pm

If I could get money at WU or GW, the decision would get very hard.

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wwrhodes
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Re: T25 vs Cheap Regional Presence

Postby wwrhodes » Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:45 am

I'm starting to think UofA Fayetteville with free tuition is the best bet. I've been researching the bigger firms in Little Rock... almost all the partners are from UofA or UofA Little Rock.

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IAFG
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Re: T25 vs Cheap Regional Presence

Postby IAFG » Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:48 am

wwrhodes wrote:I'm starting to think UofA Fayetteville with free tuition is the best bet. I've been researching the bigger firms in Little Rock... almost all the partners are from UofA or UofA Little Rock.

Bro... just, no. This doesn't tell you what percentage of grads in the past 10 years ended up waiting tables, you dig? That is NOT the way to evaluate job prospects. No no no.

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ndirish2010
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Re: T25 vs Cheap Regional Presence

Postby ndirish2010 » Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:57 am

Still, way better to end up waiting tables with no debt than with 180K of debt.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: T25 vs Cheap Regional Presence

Postby Tiago Splitter » Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:02 am

wwrhodes wrote:If I could get money at WU or GW, the decision would get very hard.


You can probably get 100K from GW and close to that from WUSTL if you apply broadly and negotiate. Don't forget Vandy either.

usfvictor
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Re: T25 vs Cheap Regional Presence

Postby usfvictor » Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:40 am

IAFG wrote:
wwrhodes wrote:I'm starting to think UofA Fayetteville with free tuition is the best bet. I've been researching the bigger firms in Little Rock... almost all the partners are from UofA or UofA Little Rock.

Bro... just, no. This doesn't tell you what percentage of grads in the past 10 years ended up waiting tables, you dig? That is NOT the way to evaluate job prospects. No no no.



your right it doesn't but it also doesn't put him into 6 figure debt

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IAFG
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Re: T25 vs Cheap Regional Presence

Postby IAFG » Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:17 pm

ndirish2010 wrote:Still, way better to end up waiting tables with no debt than with 180K of debt.

If OP had said, I would rather end up never working as a lawyer with no debt than have a better shot working as a lawyer with significant debt, I would respect that choice. But using # of alumni who are now partners is one of the worst metrics out there. I hear it often enough from would-be applicants who aren't on TLS, and I can see how it facially sounds like good reasoning but we all know it isn't.

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IAFG
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Re: T25 vs Cheap Regional Presence

Postby IAFG » Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:20 pm

Also who knows if state schools want his 17X bad enough to offer him a full ride without stipulations. I got no such deal from University of Oregon. I am not even sure every state will grant those because they can be considered a gift of public funds which is illegal. (Edit: judging from LSN and their low tuition, there are some $30k grants running around, which would be full rides for in-staters, but it looks like they are going to out-of-staters to give them the equivalent of in-state tuition.)

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JCougar
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Re: T25 vs Cheap Regional Presence

Postby JCougar » Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:24 pm

wwrhodes wrote:I'm starting to think UofA Fayetteville with free tuition is the best bet. I've been researching the bigger firms in Little Rock... almost all the partners are from UofA or UofA Little Rock.


You should just ask some practicing judges and attorneys in person. Find some bar association meetings in whatever city in AR you want to practice in. First of all, it never hurts to start networking. Tell them your stats...that you would be competitive at schools like Georgetown, but are concerned about crippling debt. Ask them whether they'd be more impressed with a Georgetown degree or someone who does well at a local school.

Law school grades are generally like throwing darts at a board, so it's sometimes safe to "cash in your chips" while you can by going to a school where you have grade leeway. But they are at least somewhat the result of intelligence and work ethic. If you're a 171 LSAT competing with mostly other 166-170 people, there's probably nearly zero real measurable difference in ability (the LSAT's margin of error is 2.7 points either way, so a 166 is within the margin of error of a 171 anyway). However, if you are a 171 competing with a class with an LSAT (75/25): 155/149 like UALR, you would doubtlessly have a considerable advantage. One thing that adds to the randomness of law grades is that schools already naturally group people by ability levels, so the differences within ability at each school is generally pretty flat. But if you're that far above the school's 75th percentile LSAT, you will likely have a significant advantage.

See what local practicing attorneys say and make some connections. Just be genuine and ask them about their practice and your concerns. Ask them what kind of grades you'd need from each school to be competitive in that job market. You'll probably find out that a lot will respect someone at the top of the class at UALR more than a median student at GeorgeTTTown.

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JCougar
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Re: T25 vs Cheap Regional Presence

Postby JCougar » Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:25 pm

IAFG wrote:Also who knows if state schools want his 17X bad enough to offer him a full ride without stipulations. I got no such deal from University of Oregon. I am not even sure every state will grant those because they can be considered a gift of public funds which is illegal. (Edit: judging from LSN and their low tuition, there are some $30k grants running around, which would be full rides for in-staters, but it looks like they are going to out-of-staters to give them the equivalent of in-state tuition.)


That's a good point...I wouldn't do any local schools with those numbers unless they were completely free. OP, make sure you get a full scholarship somewhere.

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IAFG
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Re: T25 vs Cheap Regional Presence

Postby IAFG » Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:30 pm

JCougar wrote:You should just ask some practicing judges and attorneys in person. Find some bar association meetings in whatever city in AR you want to practice in. First of all, it never hurts to start networking. Tell them your stats...that you would be competitive at schools like Georgetown, but are concerned about crippling debt. Ask them whether they'd be more impressed with a Georgetown degree or someone who does well at a local school.



Isn't like, the first rule from Campos book to not trust boomers in evaluating job prospects out of law school? Better advice is to go to 3Ls and see what they say about what they and their peers are getting out of school.

JCougar wrote:See what local practicing attorneys say and make some connections. Just be genuine and ask them about their practice and your concerns. Ask them what kind of grades you'd need from each school to be competitive in that job market. You'll probably find out that a lot will respect someone at the top of the class at UALR more than a median student at GeorgeTTTown.

Why are you advising OP to assume he'll do well at AULR? Do they not still have a curve?

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JCougar
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Re: T25 vs Cheap Regional Presence

Postby JCougar » Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:40 pm

IAFG wrote:Isn't like, the first rule from Campos book to not trust boomers in evaluating job prospects out of law school? Better advice is to go to 3Ls and see what they say about what they and their peers are getting out of school.


The Campos book is to not trust school administrators. If you talk to practicing attorneys, they are well aware of how bad the shitstorm is. Many of them will flatly advise you not to go to law school. Since these people are the ones doing the actual hiring, they'd be the perfect people to ask on the question of what degree they value more. Beats asking people on TLS. Each market, especially the smaller ones, has its own opinions.

IAFG wrote:Why are you advising OP to assume he'll do well at AULR? Do they not still have a curve?


They do have a curve, but LSAT does predict 1L gpa. I think it predicts on average about 30% of the variance in 1L gpa. It is FAR from a perfect predictor, and nothing is guaranteed, but the farther from the mean LSAT of your incoming class you are, the more predictive power it offers. The difference between a 151 and 171 is fairly significant.

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IAFG
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Re: T25 vs Cheap Regional Presence

Postby IAFG » Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:52 pm

JCougar wrote:The Campos book is to not trust school administrators. If you talk to practicing attorneys, they are well aware of how bad the shitstorm is. Many of them will flatly advise you not to go to law school. Since these people are the ones doing the actual hiring, they'd be the perfect people to ask on the question of what degree they value more. Beats asking people on TLS. Each market, especially the smaller ones, has its own opinions.

Alright, I guess it depends what you mean by "practicing attorneys." People 1-2 years out are probably a good source. Boomer partners have no. fucking. clue. Partners at my firm would generally have endorsed attending their T2s. You cannot trust people with a decade or more of separation from the hiring process as a seeker. But 3Ls at the schools you're interested in are still a vastly better source of information.

They do have a curve, but LSAT does predict 1L gpa. I think it predicts on average about 30% of the variance in 1L gpa. It is FAR from a perfect predictor, and nothing is guaranteed, but the farther from the mean LSAT of your incoming class you are, the more predictive power it offers. The difference between a 151 and 171 is fairly significant.

It's not a safe assumption, period. The LSAT's predictive power is good as far as predictors go, but awfully shitty if you're actually putting 3 years of your life into something on the assumption that you're going to do well because the LSAT went well.

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wwrhodes
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Re: T25 vs Cheap Regional Presence

Postby wwrhodes » Thu Oct 11, 2012 3:00 pm

I have talked to a 2L, 3L, and recent grad from UALR. All of them only had positive things to say about it. I think all three were top 25%. They said just about everyone they knew were able to get jobs, although two of them are going to Florida for tax law now. I just don't think their opinions are quite as definitive as I was hoping. I will talk to some lawyers in the bigger firms around Little Rock.

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JCougar
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Re: T25 vs Cheap Regional Presence

Postby JCougar » Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:27 pm

IAFG wrote:Alright, I guess it depends what you mean by "practicing attorneys." People 1-2 years out are probably a good source. Boomer partners have no. fucking. clue. Partners at my firm would generally have endorsed attending their T2s. You cannot trust people with a decade or more of separation from the hiring process as a seeker. But 3Ls at the schools you're interested in are still a vastly better source of information.


I suppose it depends on the partner, whether they're on the hiring committee, etc. The ones that actually do the hiring obviously know. You are correct, however, abut a lot of the older partners who have other responsibilities. They can be totally out of touch with what law students are going through right now. The newer associates are well aware.

Most of the attorneys that actually go to networking events are well aware of it too, because there's always hoards of desperate 3Ls and "4Ls" hanging out at these events trying to make an impression or begging for jobs. You just have to feel out each individual, I guess. The older attorneys in practice I met were mostly in touch, and the partners at my summer firm were the ones bringing ME the news about how terrible the job market was. I found out about the 55% jobs number of c/o 2011 from them. But there's always the ones who are too wrapped up in themselves to have a clue.

IAFG wrote:It's not a safe assumption, period. The LSAT's predictive power is good as far as predictors go, but awfully shitty if you're actually putting 3 years of your life into something on the assumption that you're going to do well because the LSAT went well.


It is a far safer assumption if you're going to law school for free. I mean, is it any less risky to bank on being in the top third at Georgetown paying sticker with a far more competitive class?

A Georgetown degree gives you a lot of prestige, but that prestige can be neutralized with a long stint of unemployment on your resume or ruined credit due to student loan default.

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IAFG
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Re: T25 vs Cheap Regional Presence

Postby IAFG » Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:16 pm

JCougar wrote:It is a far safer assumption if you're going to law school for free. I mean, is it any less risky to bank on being in the top third at Georgetown paying sticker with a far more competitive class?

A Georgetown degree gives you a lot of prestige, but that prestige can be neutralized with a long stint of unemployment on your resume or ruined credit due to student loan default.

This risk analysis is very personal. For me, personally, Northwestern's shot at biglaw was the obvious choice to me over a longshot at a "second hump" job (referring to the bimodal distribution of lawyer salaries) from a state school. The cost was well worth it from my perspective as a 0L. Ending up in the first hump even with very little debt would have been a very bad outcome, no matter my debt status. That's not a matter of universal truth, that's my personal attitude about salary, status, etc.

Now, as it happens, Arkansas has no NALP employers. I am not sure it's even possible to get regional biglaw or highly compensated midlaw there. So if location is the most important thing, going debt-free may not be a matter of preference; it may be a matter of necessity.

EdgarWinter
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Re: T25 vs Cheap Regional Presence

Postby EdgarWinter » Mon Oct 15, 2012 9:53 pm

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Last edited by EdgarWinter on Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: T25 vs Cheap Regional Presence

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:38 pm

a 171 LSAT + decent work ethic = top 10% at U of Ark. Maybe not but a very good chance.

Not only will you likely be more clever than over half of your competition, you'll probably work harder than 75% of them. Lots of people at State U aren't going to take practice exams before finals, aren't going to start working hard till late Nov., etc. You should be in good shape.

Very hard to judge the T-14 for 200k vs. State U for free. I just made up all that shit about percentages, but trust me I'm on to something. There is a real difference in the student bodies, especially in terms of work ethic.

I'd go U of Ark.

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Uncle.Joe
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Re: T25 vs Cheap Regional Presence

Postby Uncle.Joe » Sat Nov 03, 2012 10:06 am

bk1 wrote:You need to figure out what you want. If you go to NU/UVA/GULC you will have a lot more opportunities (though you will be essentially forced into working at a large law firm if given the option to pay off the debt), but you risk being a debt slave if you miss out on biglaw. If you go to UofA you will close a lot of doors, but you eliminate the risk of being a debt slave.

You also shouldn't be considering transferring. Odds are your grades won't be good enough for you to transfer.

wwrhodes wrote:
geary86 wrote:GW gives out a full-ride scholarship to ED applicants...
I have no idea on how competitive or what credentials you would need to be accepted..
But I think with 3.1/171, you might have a shot :)


Yeah I read that. I just assumed that my 3.1 would probably put me out of contention for that kind of $$$. But wouldn't that just be a treat.


A 3.1 very likely does put you out of contention for GW ED.


Basically only goes to those who should not have ED'd everyone else gets filtered to regular admissions. Unless things have changed, I think 105k is largest RD scholly given up but couple years ago so grain of salt.

OP apply far and wide.

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Uncle.Joe
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Re: T25 vs Cheap Regional Presence

Postby Uncle.Joe » Sat Nov 03, 2012 10:12 am

wwrhodes wrote:I have talked to a 2L, 3L, and recent grad from UALR. All of them only had positive things to say about it. I think all three were top 25%. They said just about everyone they knew were able to get jobs, although two of them are going to Florida for tax law now. I just don't think their opinions are quite as definitive as I was hoping. I will talk to some lawyers in the bigger firms around Little Rock.


http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school= ... yetteville

If anything is true in this life its don't believe students the administration has you talk to about jobs or the administration about jobs. Oddly its been my experience that the lower ranked schools are much less conscious of employment realities than people at higher ranked schools. Therefore, individuals who have secured employment seem to assume that so has everyone else.

If you go to Arkansas with a 171 your a hilarious human being. Take a full ride or significant scholly elsewhere. Additionally if cost is a concern why isn't Cornell up in your choices. Good employment lower COL.

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Pumpkin_Pie
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Re: T25 vs Cheap Regional Presence

Postby Pumpkin_Pie » Sun Nov 04, 2012 6:09 am

wwrhodes wrote:I'm starting to think UofA Fayetteville with free tuition is the best bet. I've been researching the bigger firms in Little Rock... almost all the partners are from UofA or UofA Little Rock.


I have to agree (but I'm a fellow midwesterner taking the same route so take that with a grain of salt.) It looks like UofA LR places slightly better than Fayetteville. If you could go there for free I would take it.




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