T25 vs Cheap Regional Presence

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Which school?

George Washington
7
23%
Georgetown (If I even get accepted)
10
32%
UofA Fayetteville
5
16%
UofA Little Rock
3
10%
Other
6
19%
 
Total votes: 31

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wwrhodes
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T25 vs Cheap Regional Presence

Postby wwrhodes » Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:52 am

Hello everyone. I've been lurking for about the past week or so, and I have decided to pose my question for you all.
GPA: 3.1
LSAT: 171
So I guess I would be considered a splitter. From what I have read I would have a decent shot at GW and *maybe* a T14 like Georgetown. My problem is that I do not know what kind of law I would want to go into long-term. I'm from Arkansas and I am considering U of A in Fayetteville. I know that an ~#84 rank school is unthinkable to many people here, but I am still not sure if going somewhere like GW would be worth the $120,00+ debt. I could probably get my degree free from UofA, and if I end up staying in Little Rock to work I really don't think the Arkansas degree would hold me back. I could be very wrong about this. Another option is to go to UofA for my 1L then consider a transfer. This could cut down on expenses and would ensure that I wouldn't go somewhere more expensive only to decide it isn't for me.

I'm kinda just spilling what is on my mind. I guess the bottom line is how much will a #84 degree hold me back if it is a school with practically no regional competition other than #119 UALR? If I was leaning toward big law in a bigger city I know the answer would be much easier. UofA would only be $12,000 even at sticker, and I could probably get it all paid for. I am very enticed by the prospect of going to a school in DC though.

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TheThriller
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Re: T25 vs Cheap Regional Presence

Postby TheThriller » Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:00 am

wwrhodes wrote:Hello everyone. I've been lurking for about the past week or so, and I have decided to pose my question for you all.
GPA: 3.1
LSAT: 171
So I guess I would be considered a splitter. From what I have read I would have a decent shot at GW and *maybe* a T14 like Georgetown. My problem is that I do not know what kind of law I would want to go into long-term. I'm from Arkansas and I am considering U of A in Fayetteville. I know that an ~#84 rank school is unthinkable to many people here, but I am still not sure if going somewhere like GW would be worth the $120,00+ debt. I could probably get my degree free from UofA, and if I end up staying in Little Rock to work I really don't think the Arkansas degree would hold me back. I could be very wrong about this. Another option is to go to UofA for my 1L then consider a transfer. This could cut down on expenses and would ensure that I wouldn't go somewhere more expensive only to decide it isn't for me.

I'm kinda just spilling what is on my mind. I guess the bottom line is how much will a #84 degree hold me back if it is a school with practically no regional competition other than #119 UALR? If I was leaning toward big law in a bigger city I know the answer would be much easier. UofA would only be $12,000 even at sticker, and I could probably get it all paid for. I am very enticed by the prospect of going to a school in DC though.


You have a lot more options then the ones you listed.

1. You can probably ED to UVA and snag an acceptance. Maybe you could at least shoot one out to Penn/Mich if you're into that.
2. With WE you could snag an RD to Northwestern.
3. You're chances at GULC are decent as is w/o an ED.
4. If you want to stay in the south, Vandy may bite with a 171

5. Do not go to law school expecting to transfer

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wwrhodes
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Re: T25 vs Cheap Regional Presence

Postby wwrhodes » Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:04 am

Thanks for the response. I was thinking about Vandy and UVA, but I thought UVA was kind of a 3.3 gpa floor and Vandy was very gpa heavy. I think I would enjoy my time at any of the places I listed. Transferring wouldn't be the end goal for me. I know class rank is a much riskier bet than school rank which is why I am considering higher tier schools.

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TheThriller
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Re: T25 vs Cheap Regional Presence

Postby TheThriller » Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:07 am

wwrhodes wrote:Thanks for the response. I was thinking about Vandy and UVA, but I thought UVA was kind of a 3.3 gpa floor and Vandy was very gpa heavy. I think I would enjoy my time at any of the places I listed. Transferring wouldn't be the end goal for me. I know class rank is a much riskier bet than school rank which is why I am considering higher tier schools.


If you can afford it, send apps everywhere in the lower T-14, regional T20s and wherever else you want to attend/live and make a decision from there. Do your best to snag as many application fee waivers along the way.

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geary86
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Re: T25 vs Cheap Regional Presence

Postby geary86 » Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:08 am

GW gives out a full-ride scholarship to ED applicants...
I have no idea on how competitive or what credentials you would need to be accepted..
But I think with 3.1/171, you might have a shot :)

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wwrhodes
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Re: T25 vs Cheap Regional Presence

Postby wwrhodes » Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:11 am

geary86 wrote:GW gives out a full-ride scholarship to ED applicants...
I have no idea on how competitive or what credentials you would need to be accepted..
But I think with 3.1/171, you might have a shot :)


Yeah I read that. I just assumed that my 3.1 would probably put me out of contention for that kind of $$$. But wouldn't that just be a treat.

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bk1
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Re: T25 vs Cheap Regional Presence

Postby bk1 » Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:14 am

You need to figure out what you want. If you go to NU/UVA/GULC you will have a lot more opportunities (though you will be essentially forced into working at a large law firm if given the option to pay off the debt), but you risk being a debt slave if you miss out on biglaw. If you go to UofA you will close a lot of doors, but you eliminate the risk of being a debt slave.

You also shouldn't be considering transferring. Odds are your grades won't be good enough for you to transfer.

wwrhodes wrote:
geary86 wrote:GW gives out a full-ride scholarship to ED applicants...
I have no idea on how competitive or what credentials you would need to be accepted..
But I think with 3.1/171, you might have a shot :)


Yeah I read that. I just assumed that my 3.1 would probably put me out of contention for that kind of $$$. But wouldn't that just be a treat.


A 3.1 very likely does put you out of contention for GW ED.

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wwrhodes
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Re: T25 vs Cheap Regional Presence

Postby wwrhodes » Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:20 am

Another question. How much do you think the decline in applications is going to affect the numbers that the T20 law schools accept? Do you think it will be easier to get in?

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2014
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Re: T25 vs Cheap Regional Presence

Postby 2014 » Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:32 am

wwrhodes wrote:Another question. How much do you think the decline in applications is going to affect the numbers that the T20 law schools accept? Do you think it will be easier to get in?

Yes, but that won't change the fact that their employment outcomes are shaky at best.

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dingbat
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Re: T25 vs Cheap Regional Presence

Postby dingbat » Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:36 am

If you get a full ride, the Arkansas schools are a perfectly fine option. Do not go to GW without at least a partial scholarship (which you should be able to get) and want to move to DC. I'll let others comment on the wisdom of Georgetown (with or without money)

Try obtaining a fee waiver for Vandy, UVA, and any other school that tickles your fancy (Duke?), then send in some more apps. With luck, you'll be back here in 6 months with half a dozen acceptances to choose from

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ndirish2010
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Re: T25 vs Cheap Regional Presence

Postby ndirish2010 » Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:53 am

I would not go to GULC at sticker, much less GW. If you can get $$ at Vandy, that's a decent option. Otherwise, ED UVA or get WE, ED NU.

CanadianWolf
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Re: T25 vs Cheap Regional Presence

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:58 pm

Do not pay sticker price for either Georgetown or GWU.
Apply to all but the T-6 in the T-14. Apply to another dozen or so regional law schools which place in your targeted markets. Hopefully several regional law schools will offer substantial scholarship money.

P.S. Start a thread to get advice about applying "ED" based on your financials, your numbers & your targeted markets.

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wwrhodes
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Re: T25 vs Cheap Regional Presence

Postby wwrhodes » Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:46 pm

I know that these numbers might not be the most reliable things, but I checked the median starting salary for UALR, UofA, and GW. UALR and UofA are barely $50,000 @ 80% employment. GW is $160,000 @97.6% employment. Are these numbers REALLY as significant as they look... because they look pretty clear cut.

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dingbat
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Re: T25 vs Cheap Regional Presence

Postby dingbat » Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:59 pm

wwrhodes wrote:I know that these numbers might not be the most reliable things, but I checked the median starting salary for UALR, UofA, and GW. UALR and UofA are barely $50,000 @ 80% employment. GW is $160,000 @97.6% employment. Are these numbers REALLY as significant as they look... because they look pretty clear cut.

The bolded is not true.
The only jobs that pay $160k are biglaw. GW only places 18.97% in firms of 500 or more attorneys and only about 9% more in firms of 100 to 500. That means approximately 27% are in what might be considered "biglaw", only some of which pay that high a salary.

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wwrhodes
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Re: T25 vs Cheap Regional Presence

Postby wwrhodes » Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:21 pm

I figured they weren't reliable number, but I still have to assume that the median salaries would be pretty different. Maybe realistically more like $100,000 to $50,000.
Do you think this would justify the cost for one, both, or neither of the circumstances:
1) Stay/move in/to Arkansas and work in Little Rock (~250,000 population city)
2) Stay/move in/to DC/NY/etc. big city and try for big law.

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dingbat
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Re: T25 vs Cheap Regional Presence

Postby dingbat » Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:33 pm

wwrhodes wrote:I figured they weren't reliable number, but I still have to assume that the median salaries would be pretty different. Maybe realistically more like $100,000 to $50,000.
Do you think this would justify the cost for one, both, or neither of the circumstances:
1) Stay/move in/to Arkansas and work in Little Rock (~250,000 population city)
2) Stay/move in/to DC/NY/etc. big city and try for big law.

The salary might be higher in DC/NY, but so is the cost of living. Before you commit to law school, you should really think about what you want and where you want to end up. No one here can advise you on that, but we can help you know more about your options, so you can make an informed decision

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wwrhodes
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Re: T25 vs Cheap Regional Presence

Postby wwrhodes » Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:37 pm

dingbat wrote:
wwrhodes wrote:I figured they weren't reliable number, but I still have to assume that the median salaries would be pretty different. Maybe realistically more like $100,000 to $50,000.
Do you think this would justify the cost for one, both, or neither of the circumstances:
1) Stay/move in/to Arkansas and work in Little Rock (~250,000 population city)
2) Stay/move in/to DC/NY/etc. big city and try for big law.

The salary might be higher in DC/NY, but so is the cost of living. Before you commit to law school, you should really think about what you want and where you want to end up. No one here can advise you on that, but we can help you know more about your options, so you can make an informed decision


That is the problem. I don't know where I want to end up, or if I would even want to pursue big law. I would imagine that if I knew both of those the choice would be fairly easy.

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cahwc12
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Re: T25 vs Cheap Regional Presence

Postby cahwc12 » Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:32 pm

dingbat wrote:If you get a full ride, the Arkansas schools are a perfectly fine option. Do not go to GW without at least a partial scholarship (which you should be able to get) and want to move to DC. I'll let others comment on the wisdom of Georgetown (with or without money)

Try obtaining a fee waiver for Vandy, UVA, and any other school that tickles your fancy (Duke?), then send in some more apps. With luck, you'll be back here in 6 months with half a dozen acceptances to choose from


I think this is the best advice here (although I'm hardly qualified to give job prospect advice as a 0L).

If you're currently in the area, I would schedule a visit there immediately and speak with law students and try to get more in-depth info about their job placement.

For what it's worth, UAF ranks 32nd in job placement to ostensibly real jobs (60%), still has a chance (albeit very small) at a biglaw job, and you could always decide to transfer if you're unhappy AND have that option (unlikely, but nonzero). Having zero debt would be nice.

You're trading the probable freedom for better kinds of work for the guaranteed freedom from debt.

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wwrhodes
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Re: T25 vs Cheap Regional Presence

Postby wwrhodes » Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:34 pm

No debt is enticing. I think if I were to stay in Arkansas, UofA might be the safest bet.

fogcue2
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Re: T25 vs Cheap Regional Presence

Postby fogcue2 » Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:26 am

No idea how thy place in Ark, but I imagine UT wouldn't be an awful option and you would likely get some $$

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SaintsTheMetal
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Re: T25 vs Cheap Regional Presence

Postby SaintsTheMetal » Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:03 am

fogcue2 wrote:No idea how thy place in Ark, but I imagine UT wouldn't be an awful option and you would likely get some $$


Probably either rejected at UT, or WL/Accept with no $

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shifty_eyed
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Re: T25 vs Cheap Regional Presence

Postby shifty_eyed » Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:51 am

SaintsTheMetal wrote:
fogcue2 wrote:No idea how thy place in Ark, but I imagine UT wouldn't be an awful option and you would likely get some $$


Probably either rejected at UT, or WL/Accept with no $


Yep, if we are talking about Texas. They are GPA whores, and it's harder to get in from out of state. Georgetown is a more likely, and better option. I don't think scholarship money is out of the question this cycle with their 169 median, and I expect GWU would give the OP lots of scholarship money. Wasn't there someone (Wily?) who got significant money from them with a <3.0 and 168 last cycle?

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unc0mm0n1
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Re: T25 vs Cheap Regional Presence

Postby unc0mm0n1 » Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:02 pm

SaintsTheMetal wrote:
fogcue2 wrote:No idea how thy place in Ark, but I imagine UT wouldn't be an awful option and you would likely get some $$


Probably either rejected at UT, or WL/Accept with no $


I'd still apply to Texas and see. If I were you and I knew I wanted to practice in the Texarkana region I'd take Texas over GT with the same amount of money. If I'm not mistaken you can apply for Texas residency after your first year, lowering your tuition costs.

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cahwc12
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Re: T25 vs Cheap Regional Presence

Postby cahwc12 » Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:09 pm

unc0mm0n1 wrote:
SaintsTheMetal wrote:
fogcue2 wrote:No idea how thy place in Ark, but I imagine UT wouldn't be an awful option and you would likely get some $$


Probably either rejected at UT, or WL/Accept with no $


I'd still apply to Texas and see. If I were you and I knew I wanted to practice in the Texarkana region I'd take Texas over GT with the same amount of money. If I'm not mistaken you can apply for Texas residency after your first year, lowering your tuition costs.


TEXAS: Texas residency is determined by having spent the previous 12 months before attending UT domiciled in the state of Texas. If you are a dependent on your parents’ tax returns, then they must meet Texas residency requirements as well. Students are either determined to be residents or non-residents at the time their application to UT Law is submitted. If they wish to change this status during their time at UT, then they must submit the "Residency Core Questions." This questionnaire will be reviewed by a Residency Officer and then either approved or denied. If you are denied, the decision can be appealed by writing a letter explaining why you feel you ought to be considered a resident of Texas. Despite these opportunities for law students to gain Texas residency, UT's website does not publish statistics regarding how many petitioners are successful and conventional wisdom seems to be that gaining TX residency is not very easy unless you spend a year in Texas before attending law school. Texas residents benefit from the requirement that 65% of students at UT School of Law) must hail from the Lone Star state.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/law-scho ... cy.html#tx

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unc0mm0n1
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Re: T25 vs Cheap Regional Presence

Postby unc0mm0n1 » Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:41 pm

cahwc12 wrote:
unc0mm0n1 wrote:
SaintsTheMetal wrote:
fogcue2 wrote:No idea how thy place in Ark, but I imagine UT wouldn't be an awful option and you would likely get some $$


Probably either rejected at UT, or WL/Accept with no $


I'd still apply to Texas and see. If I were you and I knew I wanted to practice in the Texarkana region I'd take Texas over GT with the same amount of money. If I'm not mistaken you can apply for Texas residency after your first year, lowering your tuition costs.


TEXAS: Texas residency is determined by having spent the previous 12 months before attending UT domiciled in the state of Texas. If you are a dependent on your parents’ tax returns, then they must meet Texas residency requirements as well. Students are either determined to be residents or non-residents at the time their application to UT Law is submitted. If they wish to change this status during their time at UT, then they must submit the "Residency Core Questions." This questionnaire will be reviewed by a Residency Officer and then either approved or denied. If you are denied, the decision can be appealed by writing a letter explaining why you feel you ought to be considered a resident of Texas. Despite these opportunities for law students to gain Texas residency, UT's website does not publish statistics regarding how many petitioners are successful and conventional wisdom seems to be that gaining TX residency is not very easy unless you spend a year in Texas before attending law school. Texas residents benefit from the requirement that 65% of students at UT School of Law) must hail from the Lone Star state.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/law-scho ... cy.html#tx


Thanks for the clarification. I knew it was possible but didn't know the process or likelyhood.




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