UGA Law School

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WanderingPondering
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UGA Law School

Postby WanderingPondering » Sun Oct 07, 2012 1:57 pm

What's the word on UGA? Does it place as well or better than Emory in Atlanta? I've heard that Emory kids have had a rough time during OCI, how's it been at UGA?

Does going there restrict you to Georgia no matter what? In-state tuition seems like it would make it a no-brainer versus Emory unless I am missing something.

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cahwc12
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Re: UGA Law School

Postby cahwc12 » Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:52 pm

UGA and Emory are schools I had been considering since I'm from the south as well. That said, after factoring in possible/likely scholarship aid, as an out-of-stater, both are relatively equivalent in terms of COA for me at my numbers.

UGA seems similar to other T1 state schools in that they are generous with in-state waivers for out-of-state students, but don't offer much beyond that.

In contrast, a lot of private schools seem to offer comparatively large "merit-aid scholarship" aid that brings tuition costs to rough equivalency, assuming numbers competitive enough for those scholarships.

And after factoring out Emory's 25 school-funded positions, both schools appear to have roughly equal "employment" statistics.

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nmcdgt
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Re: UGA Law School

Postby nmcdgt » Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:20 pm

WanderingPondering wrote:What's the word on UGA? Does it place as well or better than Emory in Atlanta? I've heard that Emory kids have had a rough time during OCI, how's it been at UGA?

Does going there restrict you to Georgia no matter what? In-state tuition seems like it would make it a no-brainer versus Emory unless I am missing something.


I went through this decision before I ultimately chose Emory. From what I've seen, Emory may place slightly better in Georgia (i.e. firms may go a little bit farther down in Emory's class), but they are roughly equal. The flip side to that is that UGA has a much better alumni base and connection with firms in Georgia that are outside of Atlanta. Emory does not do very well with smaller firms outside of Atlanta. OCI has been rough at both schools from what I've gathered, but then again it's been rough pretty much everywhere that isn't a top top school. Emory tends to be very generous with scholarship money, so that is what influenced my decision. However, it is easy to get in-state tuition in Georgia after 1-year, so UGA at in-state tuition price is a great deal. If you can get a generous scholarship from Emory, it may be the better choice, but if not, UGA is definitely a better choice than Emory at sticker. The one exception to this might be if you want a little bit more in the way of mobility. Emory is a middling "national school", but can still place in NY and DC; UGA doesn't seem to place much outside of the region. However, if you want to work in NY or DC, GW or Fordham is probably a better option anyway.

flexer
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Re: UGA Law School

Postby flexer » Wed Oct 10, 2012 9:20 am

Thank you for sharing nmcdgt. If you had to choose between Emory with a 20k/year scholarship (leaving tuition at 26k/year) and UGA in-state (16k/year), and your goal was to obtain the best possible employment in the Atlanta area (firm, gov, in-house positions etc.), which one would you choose? I am just trying to decide whether I should ED at UGA. Thanks for your help.

WanderingPondering
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Re: UGA/Emory Law School

Postby WanderingPondering » Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:13 pm

nmcdgt wrote: The one exception to this might be if you want a little bit more in the way of mobility. Emory is a middling "national school", but can still place in NY and DC;


Does Emory really place in NY/DC? I'm guessing it would take top 5-10% to have a decent shot there?

And UGA top 5-10% best case scenario is basically ATL Biglaw?

I'm just trying to get this sorted out before my application goes out. Somewhat uncommon situation to have 2 solid T1 schools in the same area, with one being private with a little national reach and the other public.

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BruceWayne
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Re: UGA Law School

Postby BruceWayne » Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:26 pm

Both schools give you the same shot at Atlanta biglaw (that is a small one for students outside the top 5 percent with law review). UGA gives you a better chance to find a job in Georgia outside of Atlanta. UGA gives you almost no shot at a non Atlanta non Birmingham biglaw job and Emory gives you a very small shot at a non Atlanta non Birmingham biglaw job. UGA is very cheap.

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GATA1989
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Re: UGA Law School

Postby GATA1989 » Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:42 pm

Athens>Atlanta

splittinghairs
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Re: UGA Law School

Postby splittinghairs » Sun Oct 14, 2012 11:24 pm

nmcdgt wrote:The one exception to this might be if you want a little bit more in the way of mobility. Emory is a middling "national school", but can still place in NY and DC; UGA doesn't seem to place much outside of the region.
BruceWayne wrote: UGA gives you a better chance to find a job in Georgia outside of Atlanta. UGA gives you almost no shot at a non Atlanta non Birmingham biglaw job and Emory gives you a very small shot at a non Atlanta non Birmingham biglaw job.


I have to disagree with both of these assertions. Reason: Self-selection.

20% of Emory students are from out of state, meaning they are both more likely to target outside GA and more likely to get ties boost from employers. For example, a student from NC(ties) is unlikely to gain an edge by choosing Emory over UGA because Emory is a "national" school. That student will get a hard look if they have the grades (think top 10%) regardless of whether they went to UGA or Emory.

As for Emory students placing into NY/DC, let me first say that DC is unbelievably tough for any student let alone some Emory student who doesnt have top 5% + law review type credentials. For those with the grades to target NY or DC, I really doubt if there is anything but a marginal benefit for a student with the same credentials from both schools in choosing Emory over UGA. Since there is quite a large portion of Emory's class that is from the Northeast, you have to wonder whether ties helped them even with NY/DC. True, ppl say ties dont matter for NY, but they certainly wont hurt if you were originally from the NY area. Plus a bigger portion of Emory's class is interested in applying to NY/DC.

By the same token, since 70% of UGA students are from GA they are of course going to find it easier to find non-atlanta GA jobs than Emory students. I think a for the 20% of Emory students who have GA ties, non-atlanta employers arent going to look down on them for having gone to Emory instead of GA. The employers just dont like out of state Emory students who apply.

The decision to me really comes down to money (total cost of attendance) and other subjective preference factors, (ie do you like to live in Atlanta, higher cost of living but closer to internship opportunities or Athens, the classic city with a huge undergrad population and SEC football).

To me, I wouldnt choose Emory over UGA or UGA over Emory based on 30k difference. But for some subjective factors may be worth 30k to them.

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nmcdgt
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Re: UGA Law School

Postby nmcdgt » Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:11 am

splittinghairs wrote:
nmcdgt wrote:The one exception to this might be if you want a little bit more in the way of mobility. Emory is a middling "national school", but can still place in NY and DC; UGA doesn't seem to place much outside of the region.
BruceWayne wrote: UGA gives you a better chance to find a job in Georgia outside of Atlanta. UGA gives you almost no shot at a non Atlanta non Birmingham biglaw job and Emory gives you a very small shot at a non Atlanta non Birmingham biglaw job.


I have to disagree with both of these assertions. Reason: Self-selection.

20% of Emory students are from out of state, meaning they are both more likely to target outside GA and more likely to get ties boost from employers. For example, a student from NC(ties) is unlikely to gain an edge by choosing Emory over UGA because Emory is a "national" school. That student will get a hard look if they have the grades (think top 10%) regardless of whether they went to UGA or Emory.

As for Emory students placing into NY/DC, let me first say that DC is unbelievably tough for any student let alone some Emory student who doesnt have top 5% + law review type credentials. For those with the grades to target NY or DC, I really doubt if there is anything but a marginal benefit for a student with the same credentials from both schools in choosing Emory over UGA. Since there is quite a large portion of Emory's class that is from the Northeast, you have to wonder whether ties helped them even with NY/DC. True, ppl say ties dont matter for NY, but they certainly wont hurt if you were originally from the NY area. Plus a bigger portion of Emory's class is interested in applying to NY/DC.

By the same token, since 70% of UGA students are from GA they are of course going to find it easier to find non-atlanta GA jobs than Emory students. I think a for the 20% of Emory students who have GA ties, non-atlanta employers arent going to look down on them for having gone to Emory instead of GA. The employers just dont like out of state Emory students who apply.

The decision to me really comes down to money (total cost of attendance) and other subjective preference factors, (ie do you like to live in Atlanta, higher cost of living but closer to internship opportunities or Athens, the classic city with a huge undergrad population and SEC football).

To me, I wouldnt choose Emory over UGA or UGA over Emory based on 30k difference. But for some subjective factors may be worth 30k to them.


First and foremost, this thread is relevant to you guys who are trying to decide between Emory and UGA: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=157882

I was pretty careful to qualify Emory as a "middling national school," because it definitely is not going to send students all over the country on reputation alone. However, Emory does have year-to-year OCI in NY/DC and elsewhere -- and subsequently a decent alumni base in those markets -- which is not something that UGA and similar regional schools typically can say. Given my own personal experience in applying to DC/NY with absolutely no ties, and seeing how friends of mine at UGA have done, I'm pretty confident that Emory's reputation does carry a bit farther. I would be willing to bet that many firms outside of the region do not even realize that UGA is as quality of a school as it is (which, as I've stated before, I believe UGA is a great school). And even if you disagree on this point, the mere fact that Emory has sent alumni to these regions fairly consistently in the past helps going forward; you're going to be hard pressed to find UGA alums at major NY/DC firms, while I've seen a handful from Emory. Thus, while it is a factor, I don't think self-selection alone is the entire story.

Also, the point on 70% of UGA students being from Georgia being the source of Emory's problems outside of Atlanta is not true. Even for those Emory students with lifelong ties to Georgia, the opportunities are not the same. If you start looking at some of the smaller Atlanta firms (< 20 lawyers) and the firms outside the city, you will literally find 0 Emory Alums in a lot of those firms. I've encountered a handful of firms who are composed of entirely UGA/Mercer grads, especially as you get down to Savannah and other similar areas. Emory's CSO itself has admitted that it has not spent time cultivating relationships with small firms and non-Atlanta firms in the past, and are trying to remedy that problem now.

That being said, I agree that it comes down to money and subjective preference factors. For me, the money was pretty close; at that point, my decision came down where I wanted to live (I wanted to be in Atlanta over Athens) and other factors such as availability of internships during the school year in Atlanta, proximity to family/friends, and not wanting to live in a college town. Assuming the money is close, just visit both places and see what you like the best.

ETA: BruceWayne is absolutely right, the Atlanta BigLaw SA market is a complete slaughterhouse. You really have to be at least top 10% + LR to have any semblance of security, and even then plenty of people strike out in Atlanta. Even with good grades, journal, and GA ties I've found other markets to be much easier.

splittinghairs
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Re: UGA Law School

Postby splittinghairs » Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:55 pm

nmcdgt wrote:
splittinghairs wrote:
nmcdgt wrote:The one exception to this might be if you want a little bit more in the way of mobility. Emory is a middling "national school", but can still place in NY and DC; UGA doesn't seem to place much outside of the region.
BruceWayne wrote: UGA gives you a better chance to find a job in Georgia outside of Atlanta. UGA gives you almost no shot at a non Atlanta non Birmingham biglaw job and Emory gives you a very small shot at a non Atlanta non Birmingham biglaw job.


I have to disagree with both of these assertions. Reason: Self-selection.

20% of Emory students are from out of state, meaning they are both more likely to target outside GA and more likely to get ties boost from employers. For example, a student from NC(ties) is unlikely to gain an edge by choosing Emory over UGA because Emory is a "national" school. That student will get a hard look if they have the grades (think top 10%) regardless of whether they went to UGA or Emory.

As for Emory students placing into NY/DC, let me first say that DC is unbelievably tough for any student let alone some Emory student who doesnt have top 5% + law review type credentials. For those with the grades to target NY or DC, I really doubt if there is anything but a marginal benefit for a student with the same credentials from both schools in choosing Emory over UGA. Since there is quite a large portion of Emory's class that is from the Northeast, you have to wonder whether ties helped them even with NY/DC. True, ppl say ties dont matter for NY, but they certainly wont hurt if you were originally from the NY area. Plus a bigger portion of Emory's class is interested in applying to NY/DC.

By the same token, since 70% of UGA students are from GA they are of course going to find it easier to find non-atlanta GA jobs than Emory students. I think a for the 20% of Emory students who have GA ties, non-atlanta employers arent going to look down on them for having gone to Emory instead of GA. The employers just dont like out of state Emory students who apply.

The decision to me really comes down to money (total cost of attendance) and other subjective preference factors, (ie do you like to live in Atlanta, higher cost of living but closer to internship opportunities or Athens, the classic city with a huge undergrad population and SEC football).

To me, I wouldnt choose Emory over UGA or UGA over Emory based on 30k difference. But for some subjective factors may be worth 30k to them.


First and foremost, this thread is relevant to you guys who are trying to decide between Emory and UGA: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=157882

I was pretty careful to qualify Emory as a "middling national school," because it definitely is not going to send students all over the country on reputation alone. However, Emory does have year-to-year OCI in NY/DC and elsewhere -- and subsequently a decent alumni base in those markets -- which is not something that UGA and similar regional schools typically can say. Given my own personal experience in applying to DC/NY with absolutely no ties, and seeing how friends of mine at UGA have done, I'm pretty confident that Emory's reputation does carry a bit farther. I would be willing to bet that many firms outside of the region do not even realize that UGA is as quality of a school as it is (which, as I've stated before, I believe UGA is a great school). And even if you disagree on this point, the mere fact that Emory has sent alumni to these regions fairly consistently in the past helps going forward; you're going to be hard pressed to find UGA alums at major NY/DC firms, while I've seen a handful from Emory. Thus, while it is a factor, I don't think self-selection alone is the entire story.

Also, the point on 70% of UGA students being from Georgia being the source of Emory's problems outside of Atlanta is not true. Even for those Emory students with lifelong ties to Georgia, the opportunities are not the same. If you start looking at some of the smaller Atlanta firms (< 20 lawyers) and the firms outside the city, you will literally find 0 Emory Alums in a lot of those firms. I've encountered a handful of firms who are composed of entirely UGA/Mercer grads, especially as you get down to Savannah and other similar areas. Emory's CSO itself has admitted that it has not spent time cultivating relationships with small firms and non-Atlanta firms in the past, and are trying to remedy that problem now.

That being said, I agree that it comes down to money and subjective preference factors. For me, the money was pretty close; at that point, my decision came down where I wanted to live (I wanted to be in Atlanta over Athens) and other factors such as availability of internships during the school year in Atlanta, proximity to family/friends, and not wanting to live in a college town. Assuming the money is close, just visit both places and see what you like the best.

ETA: BruceWayne is absolutely right, the Atlanta BigLaw SA market is a complete slaughterhouse. You really have to be at least top 10% + LR to have any semblance of security, and even then plenty of people strike out in Atlanta. Even with good grades, journal, and GA ties I've found other markets to be much easier.


I think we basically agree but only differ in terms of degree. I characterize Emory's national reputation as marginal at best and explained moreso by self-selection than anything else, you tend to point to ny/dc oci participation and alumni elsewhere as evidence that emory does actually place better.

But I have to ask how many firms from NY/DC actually interviewed during Emory OCI and how many spots/offers were actually available rather than just a vestige from pre-ITE days when biglaw jobs were plenty so NY/DC firms could actually look beyond t-14 schools.

There were a total of 30 or so Atlanta firms at Emory EIW, so I cant imagine more than 5-10 firms from NY/DC. Realistically, thats what 5-10 spots at most out of a class of ~300. Since you need top 10% and/or LR for Atlanta firms, I'd imagine youd prob need top 5% to be in play for those NY/DC firms. At that point, top 5% students at emory versus similarly ranked student at any other T-1 school could easily just transfer to CCN, Penn, Cornell for NY or UVA/Gulc for DC. So theres no added benefit of having chosen Emory and being ranked top 5% versus any other T-1 school and ranking top 5% for a student who wants to target NY/DC.

Any even if there were some advantage, it simply is foolish to choose one school over another based on something thats so unlikely to occur (finishing in top 5% and being able to take advantage of NY/DC firms interviewing). I say this not because I think you disagree with me, but I think 0Ls can easily misinterepret your assertion that Emory has a middling national reputation to be a relevant factor in choosing schools.

I also have to say that I tend to agree that ATL firms tend to go slightly deeper into the class at Emory than UGA, think something like top 15% at Emory to have a shot versus top 10% at UGA, but I have no way to confirm since Im not on the hiring commitee but Ive heard from many different second hand accounts of that being the case in hiring.

Yeah, things look very grim when only 10-15% at schools like Emory and UGA get biglaw but maybe its slightly tempered by the fact that both schools do tend to do decently in Article III clerkships, UGA maybe a light edge over Emory so basically something like 20% of the class are able to get biglaw or clerkship. I think this is due to the unique nature of 11th circuit including Ala, GA, and FL which are states that lack any t-14 schools so fed judges find their clerks from solid t-1 schools.




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