Cooley Law questions Forum

[North]

Then by consequence, you defeat North's point. Alas, all's well that ends well.

Wow, yeah. Except for almost every Cooley student, it ends with $200,000 in debt, no job, and a piece of paper.

[dingbat]

Then by consequence, you defeat North's point. Alas, all's well that ends well.

Wow, yeah. Except for almost every Cooley student, it ends with $200,000 in debt, no job, and a useless piece of paper.

ftfy

[tim.janitor]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7G3JDtXc ... =endscreen

Has to be the worst.

[awr20562009]

Then by consequence, you defeat North's point. Alas, all's well that ends well.

Wow, yeah. Except for almost every Cooley student, it ends with $200,000 in debt, no job, and a piece of paper.

I won't argue with you - but then again, you misrepresent my point.

[JCougar]

Then by consequence, you defeat North's point. Alas, all's well that ends well.

Wow, yeah. Except for almost every Cooley student, it ends with $200,000 in debt, no job, and a piece of paper.

I won't argue with you - but then again, you misrepresent my point.

The problem with Cooley is that your scholarship was either directly or ultimately financed by the excessive tuition it charged to a bunch of other poor saps that will be debt-Pwned for life. It might have worked you for you...but it did so at the expense of others. Now, it's true that every law school works this way to an extent--matriculants with poor entering credentials finance the scholarships of those with better ones--but Cooley does it more than any other school out there, and leaves far more people hopeless and unemployed as a result.

So in the end, it doesn't really matter that you were one of the few that made it out of there alive. I mean, that's good for you, but that still doesn't mean Cooley as an institution isn't an evil money-extraction scheme. If they really "didn't give a crap what the ABA thinks of them," there would be no reason for them to have followed suit and participated in the tuition arms race that every other school takes part in. If Cooley's tuition was $9K/year still, no one would be hating on it.

[jkpolk]

Then by consequence, you defeat North's point. Alas, all's well that ends well.

Wow, yeah. Except for almost every Cooley student, it ends with $200,000 in debt, no job, and a piece of paper.

I won't argue with you - but then again, you misrepresent my point.

The problem with Cooley is that your scholarship was either directly or ultimately financed by the excessive tuition it charged to a bunch of other poor saps that will be debt-Pwned for life. It might have worked you for you...but it did so at the expense of others. Now, it's true that every law school works this way to an extent--matriculants with poor entering credentials finance the scholarships of those with better ones--but Cooley does it more than any other school out there, and leaves far more people hopeless and unemployed as a result.

So in the end, it doesn't really matter that you were one of the few that made it out of there alive. I mean, that's good for you, but that still doesn't mean Cooley as an institution isn't an evil money-extraction scheme. If they really "didn't give a crap what the ABA thinks of them," there would be no reason for them to have followed suit and participated in the tuition arms race that every other school takes part in. If Cooley's tuition was $9K/year still, no one would be hating on it.

McDonalds doesnt require you to take out ANY debt!!!!!

[The Duck]

I also have a number of friends who graduated in the top 25%. Two of these friends landed Federal Judicial Clerkship's in Eastern District of Michigan, a couple did Summer Associates at prestigious firms in the Detroit area, which offered them full-time positions upon the conclusions of their summers.

Cooley reported one grad in the classes of 2009-2011 getting a Federal Clerkship. One. Not one per year. One for all three years.

And it's clear that top 25% gives you no chance at a prestigious large firm job. Just a handful (out of nearly a thousand!) of students land these gigs.

http://www.cooley.edu/consumerinformation/#employment

I met that guy. He couldn't find a job after his clerkship. He did contract work for a year, is clerking for a senior judge, and now Cooley is hiring him to teach. He graduated #1 his year.

He also spent the whole time telling me how good of a school it was and how great their career services had been looking out for him.

[The Duck]

(if you live in Michigan, Cooley is very much considered on par with UDM and Wayne State, give or take a "big firm" or two).

I live in Michigan, it is no where on par with UDM/Wayne and the only people that would think that are laypeople. I've heard dozens of people in the legal industry, in Michigan, laugh about how bad Cooley is. Think lawyers AND judges.

I continued to bust my ass at Cooley, and by the time I graduated, I finished number 19 in my class of 519 (ridiculous class size, I know).

Congrats. You're one of the few people that would have succeeded at a different law school. But the vast majority of those 519 people should never have gone to law school in the first place. Your results aren't typical.

Despite what you may hear on this website, if you go to Cooley and you do very well, you will likely to find some kind of legal employment. I can only say this because I graduated in May took the Texas Bar in July and was hired at the first DA's Office I applied to in Texas, where I had 0 connections.

Once again, your results aren't typical. Most Cooley people, even at the top, struggle. Could you move anywhere in the US and find some job that pays something? Probably. But that's not what they advertise and that's not what most people want. Nor could most people afford to work for anything.

Two of these friends landed Federal Judicial Clerkship's in Eastern District of Michigan, a couple did Summer Associates at prestigious firms in the Detroit area, which offered them full-time positions upon the conclusions of their summers.

Bullshit. Cooley's own stats don't back this up.

you will most likely fail out in your first year, and if you do happen to graduate then good luck doing document review until a shitty personal injury firm decides to take a flier on you.

You realize most law schools don't fail people out right. IIRC, Cooley's curve forced like a full 1/3 to wash out each year. Those people shouldn't have gone to law school at all and Cooley collecting their tuition just to wash them out is despicable.

As such, they have very high standards when it comes to quality of education and who they hire.

This is not the prevailing opinion as I understand it. One prior grad told me they were hiring him after his clerkship to teach because he couldn't find a job elsewhere. I've heard legal practitioners laughing about people they knew they Cooley hired. Also, a common complaint I've heard is that their "practical" approach and closed-book exams lead to their students being good at memorizing the law...but horrible at understanding the policy that drives that law and decisions. That's not high quality.

[awr20562009]

(if you live in Michigan, Cooley is very much considered on par with UDM and Wayne State, give or take a "big firm" or two).

I live in Michigan, it is no where on par with UDM/Wayne and the only people that would think that are laypeople. I've heard dozens of people in the legal industry, in Michigan, laugh about how bad Cooley is. Think lawyers AND judges.

I continued to bust my ass at Cooley, and by the time I graduated, I finished number 19 in my class of 519 (ridiculous class size, I know).

Congrats. You're one of the few people that would have succeeded at a different law school. But the vast majority of those 519 people should never have gone to law school in the first place. Your results aren't typical.

Despite what you may hear on this website, if you go to Cooley and you do very well, you will likely to find some kind of legal employment. I can only say this because I graduated in May took the Texas Bar in July and was hired at the first DA's Office I applied to in Texas, where I had 0 connections.

Once again, your results aren't typical. Most Cooley people, even at the top, struggle. Could you move anywhere in the US and find some job that pays something? Probably. But that's not what they advertise and that's not what most people want. Nor could most people afford to work for anything.

Two of these friends landed Federal Judicial Clerkship's in Eastern District of Michigan, a couple did Summer Associates at prestigious firms in the Detroit area, which offered them full-time positions upon the conclusions of their summers.

Bullshit. Cooley's own stats don't back this up.

you will most likely fail out in your first year, and if you do happen to graduate then good luck doing document review until a shitty personal injury firm decides to take a flier on you.

You realize most law schools don't fail people out right. IIRC, Cooley's curve forced like a full 1/3 to wash out each year. Those people shouldn't have gone to law school at all and Cooley collecting their tuition just to wash them out is despicable.

As such, they have very high standards when it comes to quality of education and who they hire.

This is not the prevailing opinion as I understand it. One prior grad told me they were hiring him after his clerkship to teach because he couldn't find a job elsewhere. I've heard legal practitioners laughing about people they knew they Cooley hired. Also, a common complaint I've heard is that their "practical" approach and closed-book exams lead to their students being good at memorizing the law...but horrible at understanding the policy that drives that law and decisions. That's not high quality.

I find it odd, that you have heard "dozens of people laugh about how bad Cooley is." I lived in Michigan for 6 years, during which time I worked for a couple of law firms as a clerk, I did a summer at the USAO, I interned for Wayne County Prosecutor's Office, as well as for the State Appellate Defender's Office, Staff Attorney's Office for Eastern District of Michigan, and for a Judge in the Eastern District of Michigan. During all of these experiences I encountered 0 people who had anything negative to say about the quality of attorneys that came from Cooley (not to say they aren't out there, I just never ran into them), in fact quite often it was the opposite. In my experience, people don't stand around at the courthouse talking about where they went to law school, and laughing at Cooley. It is laughable that you think UDM and Wayne are that much above Cooley, this is perhaps besides the point, but I did both Moot Court and Mock Trial national teams and our teams regularly beat UDM, Wayne, and State.

As far as the Federal Clerkships go, I can assure you they are both there. One is working for a magistrate judge and the other is working for the newest appointed district court judge. Maybe the reason Cooley's "own stats don't back this up" is because 2012 stats haven't been released... Perhaps you should ask one of your "dozens of people" to look into it since they seem to be so good at keeping track of where people went to school and their performance afterwards...


And yes I do realize that most law schools don't fail people outright. You will not ever hear me defending Cooley's admissions policy. I have many problems with who they let in and then fail out (as do the majority of students in my class standing).

I disagree with you that even most of the Cooley people at the top struggle. I can think of many people who graduated at or near the top of their class who are currently working for howard and howard, Seacrest Wardle, Dickinson Wright, etc. as well as McComb, Wayne, and Gennesee County DA's Office, and SSA, Michigan Court of Appeals, etc. I'm not gonna disagree that their employment stats are bad, but the people who are graduating near the top of the class are having success finding jobs - and good jobs at that.

As far as my quality of education goes, we could argue all day about that and get no where, so let's agree to disagree.

[Rahviveh]

(if you live in Michigan, Cooley is very much considered on par with UDM and Wayne State, give or take a "big firm" or two).

I live in Michigan, it is no where on par with UDM/Wayne and the only people that would think that are laypeople. I've heard dozens of people in the legal industry, in Michigan, laugh about how bad Cooley is. Think lawyers AND judges.

I continued to bust my ass at Cooley, and by the time I graduated, I finished number 19 in my class of 519 (ridiculous class size, I know).

Congrats. You're one of the few people that would have succeeded at a different law school. But the vast majority of those 519 people should never have gone to law school in the first place. Your results aren't typical.

Despite what you may hear on this website, if you go to Cooley and you do very well, you will likely to find some kind of legal employment. I can only say this because I graduated in May took the Texas Bar in July and was hired at the first DA's Office I applied to in Texas, where I had 0 connections.

Once again, your results aren't typical. Most Cooley people, even at the top, struggle. Could you move anywhere in the US and find some job that pays something? Probably. But that's not what they advertise and that's not what most people want. Nor could most people afford to work for anything.

Two of these friends landed Federal Judicial Clerkship's in Eastern District of Michigan, a couple did Summer Associates at prestigious firms in the Detroit area, which offered them full-time positions upon the conclusions of their summers.

Bullshit. Cooley's own stats don't back this up.

you will most likely fail out in your first year, and if you do happen to graduate then good luck doing document review until a shitty personal injury firm decides to take a flier on you.

You realize most law schools don't fail people out right. IIRC, Cooley's curve forced like a full 1/3 to wash out each year. Those people shouldn't have gone to law school at all and Cooley collecting their tuition just to wash them out is despicable.

As such, they have very high standards when it comes to quality of education and who they hire.

This is not the prevailing opinion as I understand it. One prior grad told me they were hiring him after his clerkship to teach because he couldn't find a job elsewhere. I've heard legal practitioners laughing about people they knew they Cooley hired. Also, a common complaint I've heard is that their "practical" approach and closed-book exams lead to their students being good at memorizing the law...but horrible at understanding the policy that drives that law and decisions. That's not high quality.

I find it odd, that you have heard "dozens of people laugh about how bad Cooley is." I lived in Michigan for 6 years, during which time I worked for a couple of law firms as a clerk, I did a summer at the USAO, I interned for Wayne County Prosecutor's Office, as well as for the State Appellate Defender's Office, Staff Attorney's Office for Eastern District of Michigan, and for a Judge in the Eastern District of Michigan. During all of these experiences I encountered 0 people who had anything negative to say about the quality of attorneys that came from Cooley (not to say they aren't out there, I just never ran into them), in fact quite often it was the opposite. In my experience, people don't stand around at the courthouse talking about where they went to law school, and laughing at Cooley. It is laughable that you think UDM and Wayne are that much above Cooley, this is perhaps besides the point, but I did both Moot Court and Mock Trial national teams and our teams regularly beat UDM, Wayne, and State.

As far as the Federal Clerkships go, I can assure you they are both there. One is working for a magistrate judge and the other is working for the newest appointed district court judge. Maybe the reason Cooley's "own stats don't back this up" is because 2012 stats haven't been released... Perhaps you should ask one of your "dozens of people" to look into it since they seem to be so good at keeping track of where people went to school and their performance afterwards...


And yes I do realize that most law schools don't fail people outright. You will not ever hear me defending Cooley's admissions policy. I have many problems with who they let in and then fail out (as do the majority of students in my class standing).

I disagree with you that even most of the Cooley people at the top struggle. I can think of many people who graduated at or near the top of their class who are currently working for Howard and Howard, Seacrest Wardle, Dickinson Wright, etc. as well as McComb, Wayne, and Gennesee County DA's Office, and SSA, Michigan Court of Appeals, etc. I'm not gonna disagree that their employment stats are bad, but the people who are graduating near the top of the class are having success finding jobs - and good jobs at that.

As far as my quality of education goes, we could argue all day about that and get no where, so let's agree to disagree.

What exactly is the point of your posts in this thread? Summarize it in one sentence.

All people are saying is that you shouldn't attend Cooley because the job prospects are atrocious. Do you disagree with that?

[Renne Walker]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7G3JDtXc ... =endscreen

Has to be the worst.

From what I got out of watching a couple of Come to Cooley videos is that the weather in Michigan is absolutely wonderful. All those cold weather and blizzard stories I once heard about Michigan must have all been wrong.

[The Duck]

I find it odd, that you have heard "dozens of people laugh about how bad Cooley is." I lived in Michigan for 6 years, during which time I worked for a couple of law firms as a clerk, I did a summer at the USAO, I interned for Wayne County Prosecutor's Office, as well as for the State Appellate Defender's Office, Staff Attorney's Office for Eastern District of Michigan, and for a Judge in the Eastern District of Michigan. During all of these experiences I encountered 0 people who had anything negative to say about the quality of attorneys that came from Cooley (not to say they aren't out there, I just never ran into them), in fact quite often it was the opposite. In my experience, people don't stand around at the courthouse talking about where they went to law school, and laughing at Cooley. It is laughable that you think UDM and Wayne are that much above Cooley, this is perhaps besides the point, but I did both Moot Court and Mock Trial national teams and our teams regularly beat UDM, Wayne, and State.

Maybe that's because you went to Cooley and they're being polite? I don't know why else you wouldn't have heard it...it was all the talk amongst both lawyers and judges during my internships. Maybe its simply because the economy, etc has become better known in the past two years.

I wouldn't say people often talk about their law schools...but Cooley does random weird things that people note (like advertising on city buses, which is going on right now) and then people talk about the schools' ridiculousness.

Or the time they sued people saying bad things about them on the interntetz for libel. --LinkRemoved--

Or when they opened a new campus in Michigan.

Or when they felt Florida needed another law school and Cooley needed a new campus.

Or the couple times a Cooley grad filed a case/made an argument that was so patently ridiculous that sanctions may have been warranted. Etc.

Oh, and then there was the Cooley grad that spoke at the sentencing for the underwear bomber...the Cooley grad was a passenger...he felt that the kid should not be punished because the entire thing was orchestrated by the US Government. A few USAOs laughed a lot over that one. http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/underwear ... IrahmlNb1z. The "Michigan lawyer" is a Cooley grad in that article...

Also, almost every year when the new US News rankings come out...a discussion eventually ensues about Cooley's own ranking that of course places them in the top 10. http://www.cooley.edu/rankings/overall2010.html And now it appears they have a new comparison tool, whereby they rank themselves #2 compared only to Harvard at #1 (Michigan shows 12 and Stanford 30). http://www.cooley.edu/rankings/search/r ... school.php

There are some great people that graduated from Cooley...but this school is a joke and many feel that way throughout the state. Just because they will look past it for the right person doesn't mean they don't feel that way.

And FWIW, nether moot court or mock trial have anything to do with how good a school is.

[timbs4339]

(if you live in Michigan, Cooley is very much considered on par with UDM and Wayne State, give or take a "big firm" or two).

I live in Michigan, it is no where on par with UDM/Wayne and the only people that would think that are laypeople. I've heard dozens of people in the legal industry, in Michigan, laugh about how bad Cooley is. Think lawyers AND judges.

I continued to bust my ass at Cooley, and by the time I graduated, I finished number 19 in my class of 519 (ridiculous class size, I know).

Congrats. You're one of the few people that would have succeeded at a different law school. But the vast majority of those 519 people should never have gone to law school in the first place. Your results aren't typical.

Despite what you may hear on this website, if you go to Cooley and you do very well, you will likely to find some kind of legal employment. I can only say this because I graduated in May took the Texas Bar in July and was hired at the first DA's Office I applied to in Texas, where I had 0 connections.

Once again, your results aren't typical. Most Cooley people, even at the top, struggle. Could you move anywhere in the US and find some job that pays something? Probably. But that's not what they advertise and that's not what most people want. Nor could most people afford to work for anything.

Two of these friends landed Federal Judicial Clerkship's in Eastern District of Michigan, a couple did Summer Associates at prestigious firms in the Detroit area, which offered them full-time positions upon the conclusions of their summers.

Bullshit. Cooley's own stats don't back this up.

you will most likely fail out in your first year, and if you do happen to graduate then good luck doing document review until a shitty personal injury firm decides to take a flier on you.

You realize most law schools don't fail people out right. IIRC, Cooley's curve forced like a full 1/3 to wash out each year. Those people shouldn't have gone to law school at all and Cooley collecting their tuition just to wash them out is despicable.

As such, they have very high standards when it comes to quality of education and who they hire.

This is not the prevailing opinion as I understand it. One prior grad told me they were hiring him after his clerkship to teach because he couldn't find a job elsewhere. I've heard legal practitioners laughing about people they knew they Cooley hired. Also, a common complaint I've heard is that their "practical" approach and closed-book exams lead to their students being good at memorizing the law...but horrible at understanding the policy that drives that law and decisions. That's not high quality.

I find it odd, that you have heard "dozens of people laugh about how bad Cooley is." I lived in Michigan for 6 years, during which time I worked for a couple of law firms as a clerk, I did a summer at the USAO, I interned for Wayne County Prosecutor's Office, as well as for the State Appellate Defender's Office, Staff Attorney's Office for Eastern District of Michigan, and for a Judge in the Eastern District of Michigan. During all of these experiences I encountered 0 people who had anything negative to say about the quality of attorneys that came from Cooley (not to say they aren't out there, I just never ran into them), in fact quite often it was the opposite. In my experience, people don't stand around at the courthouse talking about where they went to law school, and laughing at Cooley. It is laughable that you think UDM and Wayne are that much above Cooley, this is perhaps besides the point, but I did both Moot Court and Mock Trial national teams and our teams regularly beat UDM, Wayne, and State.

As far as the Federal Clerkships go, I can assure you they are both there. One is working for a magistrate judge and the other is working for the newest appointed district court judge. Maybe the reason Cooley's "own stats don't back this up" is because 2012 stats haven't been released... Perhaps you should ask one of your "dozens of people" to look into it since they seem to be so good at keeping track of where people went to school and their performance afterwards...


And yes I do realize that most law schools don't fail people outright. You will not ever hear me defending Cooley's admissions policy. I have many problems with who they let in and then fail out (as do the majority of students in my class standing).

I disagree with you that even most of the Cooley people at the top struggle. I can think of many people who graduated at or near the top of their class who are currently working for Howard and Howard, Seacrest Wardle, Dickinson Wright, etc. as well as McComb, Wayne, and Gennesee County DA's Office, and SSA, Michigan Court of Appeals, etc. I'm not gonna disagree that their employment stats are bad, but the people who are graduating near the top of the class are having success finding jobs - and good jobs at that.

As far as my quality of education goes, we could argue all day about that and get no where, so let's agree to disagree.

The point is that it's a shitty investment. Sure, 10 people out of the class of 500 get good jobs. But you're not going to be in the top 10- it makes little sense to bet $50K and a year of your life on such long odds.

Summer jobs don't mean squat. A clerkship is a FT job after graduation. Nobody cares if you spent a semester doing unpaid work at a US Attorney office. If people regarded Cooley attorneys highly they would be paying them real American dollars to practice law. Simple as that.

[ndirish2010]

Worked for a judge in Michigan and we used to laugh about Cooley all the time in chambers. It is considered a joke, even in Lansing.

[paradox]

Lets look at the Cooley's numbers as reported by the American Bar Association:

- 16.3% of the first years students at Cooley either fail out or simply quit.

- After the 2d year 28.4% of the students who enrolled in the class have either quit or failed out of Cooley.

Think about it; nearly 30% of the students who wanted to be attorneys and decided to attend Cooley either failed out or quit give up - in most after incurring substantial debt. For those students that don't quit or fail out you can bet that their lives are miserable during thier 3 years enrolled at Cooley.

Now take a moment to review the ABA stats for other law schools and you will see that most schools have attrition less than half of what Cooley's attrition is. The better schools have close to zero attrition

cite: https://officialguide.lsac.org/Release/ ... lData.aspx

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

Cooley Bro doesn't think people make fun of Cooley because no one makes fun of his law school while he is standing there. Trust me, Mr. Cooley Bro, people make fun of your school. Here's an anecdote for you. in Colorado, lawyers and judges make fun of DU around the water cooler. This continues until someone defends the school, and then invariably another person says in a conciliatory manner, "hey, it's not like DU is Cooley or anything."

Not even kidding I've personally participated in or witnessed this exact conversation no less than five times.

[helix23]

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=cooley&show=ABA

Out of 999 graduates for the class of 2011, only 583 are employed (58%)

Of those 583, only 375 are employed in Long Term, Full Time, Bar Passage Required Jobs (37.5%)

Of those 375, only 4 are employed in Big Law firms (101+ attorneys): ( < 1%)

Not sure how this thread made 3 pages.

[bizchick05]

First, get out of Michigan. The entire state is on the verge of economic collapse. If Cooley gave you a 100% scholarship, I still would not recommend going. The highest job opp you're going to get is working for the govt. If Obama doesn't get elected today, even those jobs will disappear.

Cooley also has the highest attrition rate, so if you end up doing awful your first semester, you'll be academically dismissed your first semester. No exceptions and they don't care if you appeal.

[bizchick05]

P.S. I don't know a Cooley graduate that makes over $35k.

[20160810]

No.