Indiana Tech Law School

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danquayle
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Re: Indiana Tech Law School

Postby danquayle » Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:40 pm

JCougar wrote:Chemerinsky deserves a good amount of scorn for UC-Irvine, but keep in mind that school's first year class all went there for free. Indy Tech grads will be crippled with terrible, burdensome debt.

Now, moving forward, UC-Irvine probably contributes to the same problem of over-supply of law grads, and their most recent class will similarly be incurring horrendous amounts of debt, and probably about 40% will never work as a lawyer, so they're certainly part of the scam, too. Just not as bad as Indy Tech.


It's just a matter of degrees. Simply because UC-Irvine is more proficient at doing the wrong thing doesn't make the wrong thing suddenly right.

timbs4339
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Re: Indiana Tech Law School

Postby timbs4339 » Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:42 pm

Golden Bear 11 wrote:Indiana Tech Law School = UC Irvine Law


Different goal, different methodology, different flawed assumptions, same result.

Irvine was Chemerinsky's attempt to create an elite national law school from scratch by gaming the USNWR system. If enough of a momentum could be gained with an initial class with high numbers and good employment outcomes, the school would keep enrolling top students.That students will continue to remain price insensitive, that you can't run a "decent" law school without charging huge tuition to attract the best faculty and deliver a ton of admin support, and that employers will hire students based solely on the strength of the faculty (not that the schools employers tend to hire from also tend to have elite faculty) were some very bad assumptions. The result is going to be a school that must charge at least as much as Davis/Hastings, but probably not any better employment outcomes. I also wonder how much he knew about the real employment situation at places like Davis/Hastings before he made his move.

Indiana Tech seems to be a more typical law school. The justifications as stated in the media are similar to Duncan and Lincoln law schools and the obvious retorts are similar (I believe, for example, that Duncan touted it's affordability relative to other law schools when there are much cheaper, much more established in-state options available.)The feasibility study also nicely skirted the question of whether jobs would be waiting, but I think they are targeting different jobs.

That said, the end result of either situation will probably be a lot of kids with no FT legal job and a massive amount of student loan debt.

WBJ
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Re: Indiana Tech Law School

Postby WBJ » Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:49 pm

nm

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TheThriller
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Re: Indiana Tech Law School

Postby TheThriller » Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:56 pm

WBJ wrote:nm


+1

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vpintz
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Re: Indiana Tech Law School

Postby vpintz » Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:00 pm

WBJ wrote:nm

quality first post.

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unc0mm0n1
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Re: Indiana Tech Law School

Postby unc0mm0n1 » Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:19 pm

WBJ wrote:nm


I disagree.

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justonemoregame
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Re: Indiana Tech Law School

Postby justonemoregame » Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:10 pm

I nominate timbs to spar with Dean Alexander. Maybe we can have multiple rounds with a different TLSer for each round.

--ImageRemoved--

paradox
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Re: Indiana Tech Law School

Postby paradox » Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:34 pm

If Mr. Alexander refuses to debate then invite him to submit a written position answering issues raised by posters in this thread.

Mr. Alexander voluntarily entered this discussion. If he refuses to reply to reply at least issue a followup statement then that refusal is itself telling.

nucky thompson
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Re: Indiana Tech Law School

Postby nucky thompson » Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:40 pm

lets be really honest - there is no way Dean Alexander would ever undertake a debate on TLS. At this point, the man is tied to Indiana Tech. He will act out of self-interest. In a single response to someone on TLS or to Paul Campos, he can reframe the conversation by focusing on the messenger's tone or style - without addressing the message's substance. He is the dean of a private, for profit law school. The school will open its doors to 100 new law students, charging $30,000 (minus merit scholarship) per year in the midst of a very uncertain, and objectively tough, legal employment market. There is no moral or responsible justification for opening this school, especially considering the amount of established/accredited law schools proximate to Fort Wayne, already facing adversity employing their debt saturated graduates (two T-30's in the state, struggling to employ half their classes with solid legal work. It is fun to fantasize about, but never. going. to. happen.

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facile princeps
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Re: Indiana Tech Law School

Postby facile princeps » Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:52 pm

nucky thompson wrote:lets be really honest - there is no way Dean Alexander would ever undertake a debate on TLS. At this point, the man is tied to Indiana Tech. He will act out of self-interest. In a single response to someone on TLS or to Paul Campos, he can reframe the conversation by focusing on the messenger's tone or style - without addressing the message's substance. He is the dean of a private, for profit law school. The school will open its doors to 100 new law students, charging $30,000 (minus merit scholarship) per year in the midst of a very uncertain, and objectively tough, legal employment market. There is no moral or responsible justification for opening this school, especially considering the amount of established/accredited law schools proximate to Fort Wayne, already facing adversity employing their debt saturated graduates (two T-30's in the state, struggling to employ half their classes with solid legal work. It is fun to fantasize about, but never. going. to. happen.

+1

It’s truly surprising and hypocritical that someone with the audacity to throw some bullshit report in our faces would cry shame over our insulting of him. I mean, would you walk into an international chess tournament and try to play a fool’s mate on a grandmaster? Yes, we insulted you and your institution, but you insulted our intelligence first.

He suggests that his institution will differentiate itself with a focus on ethics when their very existence is unethical. They are a group of blood sucking investors seeking to exploit the ignorance/naivety of a lot of under-informed prospective law students. I’m 100% sure that the market research that influenced the decision to open this new law school was done solely from the perspective of the owners’ potential benefits. They need to quit trying to convince anyone that doing this somehow benefits prospective law students, because data from the ABA and other relevant authorities confirm that there is next to nothing they could do to positively improve anyone’s chances at a legal career.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Indiana Tech Law School

Postby Tiago Splitter » Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:54 pm

nucky thompson wrote:He is the dean of a private, for profit law school.


It's a non-profit. And it makes no difference.

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JCougar
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Re: Indiana Tech Law School

Postby JCougar » Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:32 pm

facile princeps wrote:
He suggests that his institution will differentiate itself with a focus on ethics when their very existence is unethical. They are a group of blood sucking investors seeking to exploit the ignorance/naivety of a lot of under-informed prospective law students. I’m 100% sure that the market research that influenced the decision to open this new law school was done solely from the perspective of the owners’ potential benefits.


This is why I have no problem raising taxes on the rich. This notion that our economic system distributes wealth according to some notion of "merit" or "social worth" being performed is totally refuted by the fact that hyenas like this and all others trying to start up law schools given the circumstances are getting filthy rich. The thing is, it doesn't take any special intelligence or ability to do what these people do. It doesn't take genius or innovation. It just takes the sheer gall to do what almost every other person could do if they wanted to, but absolutely couldn't stomach doing due to the fact that they have some semblance of a moral compass, empathy, and self-awareness.

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HarlandBassett
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Re: Indiana Tech Law School

Postby HarlandBassett » Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:31 am

Dean Alexander will collect his $200,000+ job for at least one year, then be replaced by someone else who will do the same thing. Then he'll probably go back to another faculty position at another LS. All this time he'll be paid. The battle is lost unless admissions is trickles down to Rutgers Law levels.

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SuperCerealBrah
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Re: Indiana Tech Law School

Postby SuperCerealBrah » Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:33 am

JCougar wrote:
facile princeps wrote:
He suggests that his institution will differentiate itself with a focus on ethics when their very existence is unethical. They are a group of blood sucking investors seeking to exploit the ignorance/naivety of a lot of under-informed prospective law students. I’m 100% sure that the market research that influenced the decision to open this new law school was done solely from the perspective of the owners’ potential benefits.


This is why I have no problem raising taxes on the rich. This notion that our economic system distributes wealth according to some notion of "merit" or "social worth" being performed is totally refuted by the fact that hyenas like this and all others trying to start up law schools given the circumstances are getting filthy rich. The thing is, it doesn't take any special intelligence or ability to do what these people do. It doesn't take genius or innovation. It just takes the sheer gall to do what almost every other person could do if they wanted to, but absolutely couldn't stomach doing due to the fact that they have some semblance of a moral compass, empathy, and self-awareness.


The problem here is that their income is guaranteed by government loans. That is decidedly NOT free market.

Also, how is raising taxes on this guy going to stop him from opening the school? It won't.

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romothesavior
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Re: Indiana Tech Law School

Postby romothesavior » Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:32 am

Indy Tech. Murica

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R86
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Re: Indiana Tech Law School

Postby R86 » Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:50 am

This thread just hit the First Page of Google Results for Indiana Tech Law School.

Image

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R86
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Re: Indiana Tech Law School

Postby R86 » Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:51 am

And that's a cached version with only 16 posts.

Indiana Tech Law Schoolwww.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t...start...You +1'd this publicly. Undo
16 posts - 15 authors - yesterday
Indiana doesn't need more lawyers; California doesn't need more lawyers. Irvine, as they increase their class size and big scholly money dries ...

Let it keep climbing. Let people see it, get curious, and do some fucking research.

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HarlandBassett
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Re: Indiana Tech Law School

Postby HarlandBassett » Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:17 am

--ImageRemoved-- Image

lol Rutgers dean got the same authoritative mustache as the Indiana Teck one does

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I.P. Daly
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Re: Indiana Tech Law School

Postby I.P. Daly » Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:20 am

The dean does make a good point about other law schools that are opening in various states. Does anyone have a list of the other schools he's referring to?

I know that several years ago, two schools in New York were contemplating opening law schools (SUNY Binghamton and a college in Rochester), but I believe the plans were scrapped as a result of the bad economy and objections from existing schools in New York.

lovelaw27
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Re: Indiana Tech Law School

Postby lovelaw27 » Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:27 am

I.P. Daly wrote:Does anyone have a list of the other schools he's referring to?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_la ... ted_States

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JCougar
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Re: Indiana Tech Law School

Postby JCougar » Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:56 am

SuperCerealBrah wrote:
JCougar wrote:
facile princeps wrote:
He suggests that his institution will differentiate itself with a focus on ethics when their very existence is unethical. They are a group of blood sucking investors seeking to exploit the ignorance/naivety of a lot of under-informed prospective law students. I’m 100% sure that the market research that influenced the decision to open this new law school was done solely from the perspective of the owners’ potential benefits.


This is why I have no problem raising taxes on the rich. This notion that our economic system distributes wealth according to some notion of "merit" or "social worth" being performed is totally refuted by the fact that hyenas like this and all others trying to start up law schools given the circumstances are getting filthy rich. The thing is, it doesn't take any special intelligence or ability to do what these people do. It doesn't take genius or innovation. It just takes the sheer gall to do what almost every other person could do if they wanted to, but absolutely couldn't stomach doing due to the fact that they have some semblance of a moral compass, empathy, and self-awareness.


The problem here is that their income is guaranteed by government loans. That is decidedly NOT free market.

Also, how is raising taxes on this guy going to stop him from opening the school? It won't.


Before government loans covered it all, there were private lonas filling in the gap. If it were totally "free market," there would still be a money supply, albeit at an even higher rate of interest. Taking away government loans won't do the trick.

Also, I didn't suggest raising taxes as a way to stop him from opening the school. I suggested raising taxes because I highly doubt that the majority of people getting rich in today's economy are actually providing any social utility--and that people like Mr. Alexander are a prime example of that.

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JCougar
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Re: Indiana Tech Law School

Postby JCougar » Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:01 pm

I.P. Daly wrote:The dean does make a good point about other law schools that are opening in various states. Does anyone have a list of the other schools he's referring to?

I know that several years ago, two schools in New York were contemplating opening law schools (SUNY Binghamton and a college in Rochester), but I believe the plans were scrapped as a result of the bad economy and objections from existing schools in New York.


The thing is, those other schools ARE getting criticism. Campos has criticized UC Irvine, the new school in Tennessee just got denied accreditation, etc.

The funny thing is that Indy Tech is getting more criticism right now mainly due to Mr. Alexander's decision to come on here and post, raising the profile of this thread and making him an easy target. If he wouldn't have come on here to try to defend this scam, this thread probably would have sunk into obscurity.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Indiana Tech Law School

Postby Tiago Splitter » Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:54 pm

JCougar wrote:Also, how is raising taxes on this guy going to stop him from opening the school? It won't.

Before government loans covered it all, there were private lonas filling in the gap. If it were totally "free market," there would still be a money supply, albeit at an even higher rate of interest. Taking away government loans won't do the trick.


Peter Alexander loves people like you. Just absolutely loves you guys. To think that the higher education problem is not a problem created by and for liberals is fucking hilarious. Taking away government loans won't fix the problem? Wut? It would fix it overnight. When banks have to take the risk of people defaulting because they can't find employment, they stop making loans.

JCougar wrote:Also, I didn't suggest raising taxes as a way to stop him from opening the school. I suggested raising taxes because I highly doubt that the majority of people getting rich in today's economy are actually providing any social utility--and that people like Mr. Alexander are a prime example of that.


Just want to keep this one up here. You've really jumped the shark Cougs.

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I.P. Daly
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Re: Indiana Tech Law School

Postby I.P. Daly » Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:08 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:To think that the higher education problem is not a problem created by and for liberals is fucking hilarious. Taking away government loans won't fix the problem? Wut? It would fix it overnight. When banks have to take the risk of people defaulting because they can't find employment, they stop making loans.



I'm not challenging your point to government backed students loans were created, and are backed by liberals, but for my own edification, can you provide support for this?

paradox
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Re: Indiana Tech Law School

Postby paradox » Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:09 pm

There are 2 schools in Tennessee thatare seeking ABA accreditation.

Lincoln Memorial University was denies ABA accreditation in December 2011 and then sued the ABA claiming that the denial was arbitrary.
Website: http://www.lmunet.edu/law/
News story:
http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2012/aug/2 ... return-to/

Belmont College has started a new law school and is working towards accrediation but to my knowledge it has not had the ABA site team review yet.
http://www.belmont.edu/law/index.html




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