Indiana Tech Law School Forum

[HarlandBassett]

If you had done any research into the benefits your grads will be getting in terms of employment, you would be ashamed to open this school.

Oh they did "research" all right

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[romothesavior]

Do not go to this law school. All this crap about "blending theory and practice" and "focusing on ethics" are just BS buzz-words aimed at enticing you to waste your time and money on this school. There is nothing novel or unique or special about this school. Law school is law school is law school. And even if there was something unique about Indiana Tech, it wouldn't matter. Law school is about getting you a JOB. It is a professional school designed to enable you to practice law (and by "enable" I don't mean "train," I mean "give you a piece of a paper that allows you to practice"). I don't care if I'm being taught ethics by Jesus Christ, trial advocacy by Clarence Darrow, and crim law from Jack McCoy, all while studying in a castle on a cloud. If I can't get a J-O-B that pays the bills, it doesn't make one bit of difference.

Indiana is a very small legal market that is oversaturated with lawyers. I know students at every school in the state, and they'll all tell you that the majority of their student body is struggling BAD. The state had no need for a new law school and it is a joke that they jammed this school through. IU-Indy, IU-B, and Notre Dame are the only law schools in Indiana worth going to, and even they are generally bad investments unless you land significant dough to attend. IU-Indy and IU-B are hyper-regional (especially IU-I), so I would not go to either without significant ties to the state. If you want to practice in Indiana and you can't get a significant scholarship to at least IU-Indy, you either need to retake the LSAT or not go to law school. Simple as that.

[paradox]

For those of you who are wondering about Indiana Tech Law School, I am the Founding Dean. Perhaps I can answer some of your questions. We are located in Fort Wayne and we open next August. We are enrolling only 100 students in our Charter Class.

We intend to be a new and different kind of law school, one that intentionally blends theory and practice and one that focuses on ethics from the very start of school.
...........................................

Regarding GPA and LSAT medians, we don't have any history so we can't set them; however, we would like to open in third place among the five Indiana law schools so that would place our medians at approximately 156 for the LSAT and 3.5 for the GPA. Our tuition is $29,500 per year and we have academic scholarships available.

For more information, please visit our web-site at http://www.indianatech.edu/law or email me at PCAlexander@indianatech.edu.

Peter Alexander
Dean and Professor of Law

.

With a declining applicant pool I doubt that Teck "will open in third place among the five Indiana law schools" with "medians at approximately 156 for the LSAT and 3.5 for the GPA" as Teck's Dean Alexander hopes.

Perhaps Alexander should hope for ABA accreditation before hoping for 3d spot among Indian's law schools.

It is telling if Mr. Alexander fails to answer the negative responses in this thread about his school after he voluntarily entered the discussion.

[2014]

If you had done any research into the benefits your grads will be getting in terms of employment, you would be ashamed to open this school.

Oh they did "research" all right

--LinkRemoved--

Choice excerpts from the section "The Need for Lawyers":
"The fact that the middle class continues to be underserved by the legal profession suggests there are too few lawyers"
(Or perhaps that the whole middle class idea is dying and even if it wasn't they have little interest in paying fees that can justify the ~180k or so total COA from this school)

"The economy is once more growing at a faster rate than the lawyer population"
(There is a reason for this and that reason is not that we don't have enough lawyers)

"We can assume that the level of lawyer participation needed to generate our gross domestic product will be relatively consistent over time...technology should make lawyers more efficient..which should require fewer lawyers in a fixed economy, however, when the economy becomes more complex, the need for legal assistance increases"
(Seem to be missing even a sliver of evidence that the economy or the work lawyers are doing is more complex. Seems like the technology part is dwarfing the complexity part at this point)


On the bright side they recognize the bimodal salary, on the less bright side they think the ~100k reported average debt for ND and IU are accurate (lol). They also cite evidence that Indiana is like 44th in the US in lawyers/population without considering that there is exactly one city in Indiana with no relevant legal industry. They then compare themselves to neighboring states as peers failing to realize that one of their neighboring states (IL) has one of the four biggest legal markets, and two have secondary markets that actually have firms (OH, MI) and fuck Kentucky.

Please don't give them a cent of your money.

[R86]

Indiana Tech Law School (LinkRemoved)

Some more gems from the feasability report: (LinkRemoved)

In re tactics for upping a school's USNWR Rankings:

Most of these tactics add to the cost of legal education at ABA-approved law schools while doing little to improve, and sometimes harming, the quality of legal education. They have contributed to making the expansionary wave of legal education a speculative bubble for some law students. p26

*Derides the expansionary wave of legal education*
Scumbag Indiana Tech Law School (LinkRemoved)
*Is the expansionary wave of legal education*

Also, page 32 is just fucking gold. It opens by saying only dumb law students would go into debt and ends with this:

Law schools are among the very best institutions for teaching "critical thinking" -- the first and (arguably) the most important mission of education, no matter what employment path the student pursues.

[WanderingPondering]

I emailed the Dean to ask him to return to TLS and respond to the questions. His email address is pcalexander@indianatech.edu, for those looking for him.

[HarlandBassett]

Alexander told Business Insider that the school's planned tuition for the fall of 2013 is already nearly $10,000 less than other law schools' 2012 price tag, and scholarships will be available.

He said he didn't foresee any problems with getting ABA accreditation either.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/new-indi ... z28oipS85a

[Rahviveh]

To be fair, he didn't say that they'd be changed for the better.

Right. I was trying to set someone up for a witty caption. Burying in debt or something like that... I guess I could be more explicit.

CAPTION CONTEST.

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"Take away the suit, and this is what kind of job you will be able to get in 3 years"

LOL. underrated post!

[R86]

CAPTION CONTEST.

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"Phew! That was the first time I've done actual work in years!"

[foosbol21]

CAPTION CONTEST.

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"Due to unforeseen expenses associated with our school's hard hat budget, the University has approved a modest 6% tuition increase for the 2014-2015 school year. We think you'll find this increase in line with tuition increases at other peer institutions."

[timbs4339]

Things are heating up: http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot. ... mment-form

[danquayle]

Looks like this website is starting to gain recognition for having a pulse on perspective students.

http://www.businessinsider.com/new-indi ... 13-2012-10

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2012/10/09/a-f ... n-indiana/

Those are some pretty reputable websites. It's good to see all this criticism is having an impact, at least in the media reporting.

[North]

ETA: Scooped.

Courtesy of Campos:

Read first: http://www.businessinsider.com/new-indi ... z28oHrpnFr

Dear Professor Campos,

I just read with much disappointment the article in the Business Insider, which attacks our efforts to begin a new law school in Fort Wayne, Indiana. I am quite surprised that we are the only new law school that is being attacked when there are also new schools in Tennessee, Idaho, and Texas that have either opened this year or are slated to open with us next year. I believe that each person is entitled to his or her opinion on this topic, but I find your quote within that article to be outrageous and completely inappropriate.

In the piece, you are quoted as writing, "Chutzpah has been defined as murdering your parents and then pleading for mercy because you're an orphan…How about setting up another legal diploma mill in a hyper-saturated market, while claiming that what will set your school apart is its emphasis on 'ethics' and 'professionalism'?"

You have no idea about the details of our school. We are NOT a “diploma mill.” You have not read our Prospectus that details how the school will operate and what we intend to accomplish. Additionally, you have not taken the time to reach out to me to learn anything about the true mission and purpose of our school. Finally, to equate the opening of a law school with murdering one’s parents is reprehensible. You should be ashamed, but people who throw incendiary devices into conversations rarely have any shame. If you have any integrity, I would invite you to contact me before you misrepresent the mission and purpose of our law school any further.

I would invite you to be more professional in the future and do your homework before you attack a very serious effort to train law students in a new and different way. There are people, like me, who have left established law schools and who have moved families to a new community because we believe in the vision that Indiana Tech has for its law school. Your remarks do more harm than good—not because of the content of your statement, but because you have obviously not done the work necessary to be armed with the facts!

Sincerely,

Peter Alexander
Dean and Professor of Law

C: Dr. Arthur E. Snyder, Indiana Institute of Technology President
Law School Faculty
Dean Philip J. Weiser, University of Colorado Law School


Peter C. Alexander
Dean and Professor of Law

PCAlexander@indianatech.edu | http://www.indianatech.edu/law
Ph: 260-399-2834 | 1-855-TECHLAW
1600 East Washington Boulevard | Fort Wayne, Indiana 46803



Dear Dean Alexander:

I have in fact read the Prospectus for your law school, which is available on line here: --LinkRemoved--

It makes what in my view is an extremely unconvincing case for your enterprise. Your belief that there’s anything unusual or unique about what you’re proposing to do is mistaken. What you are proposing to do is to grant law degrees at a high price to people who in most cases will not be able to obtain employment, legal or otherwise, that justifies the cost of their investment in those degrees, while paying yourself a high salary out of the money these people pay for the privilege of attending a seriously overpriced institution, that will leave them worse off than they were prior to their enrollment.

Naturally you find this evaluation of your conduct outrageous and reprehensible, but “it is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” (Upton Sinclair).

Sincerely,

Paul Campos
Professor of Law
University of Colorado

[danquayle]

ETA: Scooped.

Courtesy of Campos:

Read first: http://www.businessinsider.com/new-indi ... z28oHrpnFr

Dear Professor Campos,

I just read with much disappointment the article in the Business Insider, which attacks our efforts to begin a new law school in Fort Wayne, Indiana. I am quite surprised that we are the only new law school that is being attacked when there are also new schools in Tennessee, Idaho, and Texas that have either opened this year or are slated to open with us next year. I believe that each person is entitled to his or her opinion on this topic, but I find your quote within that article to be outrageous and completely inappropriate.

In the piece, you are quoted as writing, "Chutzpah has been defined as murdering your parents and then pleading for mercy because you're an orphan…How about setting up another legal diploma mill in a hyper-saturated market, while claiming that what will set your school apart is its emphasis on 'ethics' and 'professionalism'?"

You have no idea about the details of our school. We are NOT a “diploma mill.” You have not read our Prospectus that details how the school will operate and what we intend to accomplish. Additionally, you have not taken the time to reach out to me to learn anything about the true mission and purpose of our school. Finally, to equate the opening of a law school with murdering one’s parents is reprehensible. You should be ashamed, but people who throw incendiary devices into conversations rarely have any shame. If you have any integrity, I would invite you to contact me before you misrepresent the mission and purpose of our law school any further.

I would invite you to be more professional in the future and do your homework before you attack a very serious effort to train law students in a new and different way. There are people, like me, who have left established law schools and who have moved families to a new community because we believe in the vision that Indiana Tech has for its law school. Your remarks do more harm than good—not because of the content of your statement, but because you have obviously not done the work necessary to be armed with the facts!

Sincerely,

Peter Alexander
Dean and Professor of Law

C: Dr. Arthur E. Snyder, Indiana Institute of Technology President
Law School Faculty
Dean Philip J. Weiser, University of Colorado Law School


Peter C. Alexander
Dean and Professor of Law

PCAlexander@indianatech.edu | http://www.indianatech.edu/law
Ph: 260-399-2834 | 1-855-TECHLAW
1600 East Washington Boulevard | Fort Wayne, Indiana 46803



Dear Dean Alexander:

I have in fact read the Prospectus for your law school, which is available on line here: --LinkRemoved--

It makes what in my view is an extremely unconvincing case for your enterprise. Your belief that there’s anything unusual or unique about what you’re proposing to do is mistaken. What you are proposing to do is to grant law degrees at a high price to people who in most cases will not be able to obtain employment, legal or otherwise, that justifies the cost of their investment in those degrees, while paying yourself a high salary out of the money these people pay for the privilege of attending a seriously overpriced institution, that will leave them worse off than they were prior to their enrollment.

Naturally you find this evaluation of your conduct outrageous and reprehensible, but “it is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” (Upton Sinclair).

Sincerely,

Paul Campos
Professor of Law
University of Colorado

There are people, like me, who have left established law schools and who have moved families to a new community because we believe in the vision money that Indiana Tech has for its law school.

I hope the egregiousness of the law schools cloaking themselves in the guise of "innovation" and "critical thinking" sheds light on the flaws of education at large. It is especially bad in law schools, but higher education is full of professors who pretend as if they're doing God's work and profit in no way by encouraging students to invest massive funds in a liberal arts degree that offers nothing other than "critical thinking."

[Rahviveh]

What a clown.

[Kurst]

There are people, like me, who have left established law schools and who have moved families to a new community because we believe in the vision that Indiana Tech has for its law school.

Dean, Southern Illinois University School of Law, 2003-2009
Professor, Penn State School of Law, 1996-2003

[howell]

Alexander really thinks he's doing God's work. Wow.

[timbs4339]

Congrats to OP. Stirred up a shitstorm with such an innocuous post.

[JCougar]

Someone should really develop SimLawSchool so boomers can play dean without actually hurting anyone. If you type in a cheat code you can get infinite money and beat yale in the SimNews annual rankings.

Fantastic work.

[pogden297]

Please stop calling it, my alma mater, the IUPUI law school. It's the IU School of Law at Indianapolis. Purdue has nothing to do with the law school.

I have never heard anyone in the Indiana legal professiona say that the Monroe County Law School (IU-Bloomington) is a better law school than IU-Indianapolis. You have a lot more work opportunities going to school in Indianapolis and that work experience makes for better lawyers. I don't know why IU-B is rated ahead of IU-I but I assure you that that's not the commone perception.

The Indiana State Bar Association should be fighting tooth and nail against Indiana Tech. They're ripping those students off.

[nsideirish]

Boomer pieces of shit like this should be thrown in jail. They are fucking criminals. It is disgusting that they will make their 250k+ salary while they knowingly entice students into 6 figures of debt with minimal (at best) employment prospects and expand the educational bubble in this country that is bound to burst soon. Fuck him.

[Steve2207]

Congrats to OP. Stirred up a shitstorm with such an innocuous post.

Yeah I did! really i was just curious about the school because I got an email from them. Didnt know it would turn into this!

[sunynp]

He responded to campos:

http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot. ... views.html

[timbs4339]

Boomer pieces of shit like this should be thrown in jail. They are fucking criminals. It is disgusting that they will make their 250k+ salary while they knowingly entice students into 6 figures of debt with minimal (at best) employment prospects and expand the educational bubble in this country that is bound to burst soon. Fuck him.

You're not seeing the big picture. He knows what is best for you, the students, and the legal profession. And what we really need when there are 45,000 JDs and 25,000 total jobs is to bundle a bunch of classes that every law school offers together and note that on your diploma. And then you take the mandatory ethics class in your first year instead of 2L or 3L. And to take a whole 30 HOURS of pro bono work, because you really get to know a practice area spending 3 hours per week at the one Legal Aid clinic in Fort Wayne with your entire class.

Seriously, this would be fine if they charged 10K per year. At 30K this is ridiculous.

[cinephile]

Boomer pieces of shit like this should be thrown in jail. They are fucking criminals. It is disgusting that they will make their 250k+ salary while they knowingly entice students into 6 figures of debt with minimal (at best) employment prospects and expand the educational bubble in this country that is bound to burst soon. Fuck him.

You're not seeing the big picture. He knows what is best for you, the students, and the legal profession. And what we really need when there are 45,000 JDs and 25,000 total jobs is to bundle a bunch of classes that every law school offers together and note that on your diploma. And then you take the mandatory ethics class in your first year instead of 2L or 3L. And to take a whole 30 HOURS of pro bono work, because you really get to know a practice area spending 3 hours per week at local Legal Aid with your entire class.

Seriously, this would be fine if they charged 10K per year. gave you 10k a year on top of your living stipend and free tuition.

ftfy