Indiana Tech Law School Forum

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Keep in mind there is one thing that impedes a race to the bottom: T4's still tend to reject students whose LSATs are so low that it's statistically probable they're not going to pass the bar. If a school's BPR is too low, it risks losing ABA accreditation. Just from a survival standpoint, law schools can't afford to admit too many applicants in the 130s--students that might never have the skills to pass the bar. So the nadir of standards probably has a floor of between 137-145, depending on how stringent a state's bar requirements are (e.g. an Oklahoma school could afford to dip lower than a California school).

Law schools can just force these people to drop out after 1st or 2nd year. T4s like Cooley or Florida Coastal already do this a ton. So even this artificial floor isn't really there.

What? You can't force someone to drop out unless they fail your school. What are you talking about?

[Tiago Splitter]

Keep in mind there is one thing that impedes a race to the bottom: T4's still tend to reject students whose LSATs are so low that it's statistically probable they're not going to pass the bar. If a school's BPR is too low, it risks losing ABA accreditation. Just from a survival standpoint, law schools can't afford to admit too many applicants in the 130s--students that might never have the skills to pass the bar. So the nadir of standards probably has a floor of between 137-145, depending on how stringent a state's bar requirements are (e.g. an Oklahoma school could afford to dip lower than a California school).

Law schools can just force these people to drop out after 1st or 2nd year. T4s like Cooley or Florida Coastal already do this a ton. So even this artificial floor isn't really there.

What? You can't force someone to drop out unless they fail your school. What are you talking about?

That's exactly what he's talking about.

[North]

Keep in mind there is one thing that impedes a race to the bottom: T4's still tend to reject students whose LSATs are so low that it's statistically probable they're not going to pass the bar. If a school's BPR is too low, it risks losing ABA accreditation. Just from a survival standpoint, law schools can't afford to admit too many applicants in the 130s--students that might never have the skills to pass the bar. So the nadir of standards probably has a floor of between 137-145, depending on how stringent a state's bar requirements are (e.g. an Oklahoma school could afford to dip lower than a California school).

Law schools can just force these people to drop out after 1st or 2nd year. T4s like Cooley or Florida Coastal already do this a ton. So even this artificial floor isn't really there.

What? You can't force someone to drop out unless they fail your school. What are you talking about?

That's what he's talking about. Coastal has a median 1L GPA of 2.4. Cooley's is lower still. With good academic standing at 2.0, even with a tight curve a good chunk of those in the bottom 1/3 will fail out.

ETA: Scooped.

[politics89]

I just read this entire thread on my commute home. I don't know how I missed it before. I was literally laughing out loud on the train like a crazy person. Thank you all.

[HarlandBassett]

Yeah, but this place's tuition is only $9K/year. This makes it many times more justifiable than Indiana Tech. You barely learn anything from law school anyway, so if a degree from this place lets you take the CA bar, I could care less if they're only charging $9K tuition.

36K is still a lot of money. At least Indiana Tech as the "legitimacy" of some lay recognition within Indiana, since it's attached to an actual brick and mortar institution people are at least aware of. It's obviously a punchline in the legal world, and if it burned down tomorrow that would be the best thing for the students, but I don't see what the utility of these online CA "schools" could possibly be either. Surely no one is actually hiring these people.

But yes, I grant you, if you're going to get a worthless piece of paper, 36K is better than 200k, although still awful.

To put it in context 36k is very near the one year annual tuition rate for several part time programs.

i'm waiting for the LS industrial complex fallout to hit such lows that the ABA will drop the LSAT requirement and fully accredit online law school programs so that a CPA (such as me) can take the bar exam and start structuring international tax projects. (yes i am really a CPA specializing in International Tax)

[haus]

i'm waiting for the LS industrial complex fallout to hit such lows that the ABA will drop the LSAT requirement and fully accredit online law school programs so that a CPA (such as me) can take the bar exam and start structuring international tax projects. (yes i am really a CPA specializing in International Tax)

Well, the ABA recently approved their first hybrid online program.

http://web.wmitchell.edu/news/2013/12/w ... d-program/

I suspect that this may make attending law school a possibility for some working adults that are lacking other reasonable options.

[HarlandBassett]

i'm waiting for the LS industrial complex fallout to hit such lows that the ABA will drop the LSAT requirement and fully accredit online law school programs so that a CPA (such as me) can take the bar exam and start structuring international tax projects. (yes i am really a CPA specializing in International Tax)

Well, the ABA recently approved their first hybrid online program.

http://web.wmitchell.edu/news/2013/12/w ... d-program/

I suspect that this may make attending law school a possibility for some working adults that are lacking other reasonable options.

yea, i am aware of this. a few years ago, it was only 12 or so online credits permitted for some other LS. we're moving in the right direction. waiting for a 100% online one. i don't need the t14 pedigree, just need the license to practice.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Keep in mind there is one thing that impedes a race to the bottom: T4's still tend to reject students whose LSATs are so low that it's statistically probable they're not going to pass the bar. If a school's BPR is too low, it risks losing ABA accreditation. Just from a survival standpoint, law schools can't afford to admit too many applicants in the 130s--students that might never have the skills to pass the bar. So the nadir of standards probably has a floor of between 137-145, depending on how stringent a state's bar requirements are (e.g. an Oklahoma school could afford to dip lower than a California school).

Law schools can just force these people to drop out after 1st or 2nd year. T4s like Cooley or Florida Coastal already do this a ton. So even this artificial floor isn't really there.

What? You can't force someone to drop out unless they fail your school. What are you talking about?

That's what he's talking about. Coastal has a median 1L GPA of 2.4. Cooley's is lower still. With good academic standing at 2.0, even with a tight curve a good chunk of those in the bottom 1/3 will fail out.

ETA: Scooped.

Oh, I read that as being able to specifically kick out low LSAT dudes. Yeah, if they are actually finishing low on dat curve, then w/e. But even finishing median at a 134 means you're less than a coin flip to pass the bar. Just doesn't make sense strategically.

[Paul Campos]

Keep in mind that "the ABA" means "the Section of Legal Education and the Legal Profession," which is dominated by deans and law faculty, and usually deans and law faculty from low-ranked schools. With occasional exceptions, the Section in recent years has been a textbook example of regulatory capture, or in non-academese, foxes watching hen houses.

[sighsigh]

Any news on how many students Indiana Tech managed to snag for the C/O 2017 so far? Applicant numbers are still in free fall.

Also, any news on what the size of the C/O 2016 is currently at?

[jk148706]

Was just reading through some of this, and forgot the dean was itt earlier. And he said this:

We are enrolling only 100 students in our Charter Class.

And this:

Regarding GPA and LSAT medians, we don't have any history so we can't set them; however, we would like to open in third place among the five Indiana law schools so that would place our medians at approximately 156 for the LSAT and 3.5 for the GPA.

[xylocarp]

Was just reading through some of this, and forgot the dean was itt earlier. And he said this:

We are enrolling only 100 students in our Charter Class.

And this:

Regarding GPA and LSAT medians, we don't have any history so we can't set them; however, we would like to open in third place among the five Indiana law schools so that would place our medians at approximately 156 for the LSAT and 3.5 for the GPA.

Ha. In comparison to what actually happened:

• Students in class: 28
  Median LSAT Score: 146
  Median Undergraduate GPA: 3.03

[20141023]

.

[JCougar]

Keep in mind that "the ABA" means "the Section of Legal Education and the Legal Profession," which is dominated by deans and law faculty, and usually deans and law faculty from low-ranked schools. With occasional exceptions, the Section in recent years has been a textbook example of regulatory capture, or in non-academese, foxes watching hen houses.

Yeah, this is true. Most ABA lawyers are as equally appalled as we are that this system has gotten so completely dysfunctional. But that just raises the question, "Who is in charge of making appointments to the Section of Legal Education and the Legal Profession?"

[Ricky-Bobby]

The creators of this law school exhibited a classic case of special snowflake syndrome. Despite all of the historical, circumstantial, and statistical evidence they had which clearly showed that opening a new law school was a bad idea, they nonetheless figured they'd be different.

I've made a huge mistake.

[jrthor10]

.

[TheSpanishMain]

Does every TTTT law school in America now brag about it's "innovative, hands on learning approach that blends theory and practice"? Every email I get from these places begging me to apply has some version of that bolded like they expect it to blow your mind.

[haus]

Does every TTTT law school in America now brag about it's "innovative, hands on learning approach that blends theory and practice"? Every email I get from these places begging me to apply has some version of that bolded like they expect it to blow your mind.

Remember that being innovative and hands on takes time, thus not leaving a lot of time to come up with new email marketing text...

[TheSpanishMain]

Does every TTTT law school in America now brag about it's "innovative, hands on learning approach that blends theory and practice"? Every email I get from these places begging me to apply has some version of that bolded like they expect it to blow your mind.

Remember that being innovative and hands on takes time, thus not leaving a lot of time to come up with new email marketing text...

It's just annoying. It implies that at other (i.e better) law schools, they just talk about ivory tower theoretical naval gazing bullshit, but here at Indiana Tech, we teach you the actual nuts and bolts of being a lawyer. As though the T14 is just pumping out academics who can't actually practice law.

[BigZuck]

ivory tower theoretical naval gazing bullshit

That might not be *all* they talk about, but...

[Ricky-Bobby]

Does every TTTT law school in America now brag about it's "innovative, hands on learning approach that blends theory and practice"? Every email I get from these places begging me to apply has some version of that bolded like they expect it to blow your mind.

Remember that being innovative and hands on takes time, thus not leaving a lot of time to come up with new email marketing text...

It's just annoying. It implies that at other (i.e better) law schools, they just talk about ivory tower theoretical naval gazing bullshit, but here at Indiana Tech, we teach you the actual nuts and bolts of being a lawyer. As though the T14 is just pumping out academics who can't actually practice law.

That's called marketing, bud. Indiana TTTech and its cohorts can't compete on... well, any level, really... so they make up some stuff about training practice-ready lawyers. This is even easier to do nowadays with the high-profile push to reform law school education (hell, POTUS even talked about it).

The funny thing is employers don't seem to give two shits about "practice-ready" lawyers. I don't have the article I'm about to cite on-hand, so crucify me appropriately, but I read that schools offering these "innovative, hands-on approaches" are seeing comparable, if not worse, hiring declines to normal, non-innovative schools.

[TheSpanishMain]

I know it's a marketing tactic, and I'm sure it helps them net a few gullible dopes, but it sure is an annoying marketing tactic.

[cron1834]

The Lake Wobegon effect bothers me in LS marketing, and not just among TTTs. They can't all be more collegial than average or more "practice ready" than the typical school. At some point you tune that shit out pretty quickly when every single email makes the same claims.

[Ricky-Bobby]

I know it's a marketing tactic, and I'm sure it helps them net a few gullible dopes, but it sure is an annoying marketing tactic.

Oh, no argument here. In fact, I'd say it's downright awful that those tactics work.

[jn7]

Is that water?

http://law.indianatech.edu/staff/faculty/lamparello/