Paying full sticker?

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
User avatar
banjo
Posts: 1345
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:00 pm

Re: Paying full sticker?

Postby banjo » Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:20 pm

How long before someone makes a serious argument that H is not worth sticker debt? If you look at rayiner's unemployment data, it's clear that there are at least a handful of un/underemployed H graduates. At the moment, we simply give H (and Y an S) the benefit of the doubt, trusting in anecdotes and saying that available employment data simply doesn't capture the range of opportunities that HLS grads really have. But would it shock anyone if we found out that 15-20% of HLS grads slipped through the cracks? It's a pretty large class...

User avatar
Blessedassurance
Posts: 2081
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:42 pm

Re: Paying full sticker?

Postby Blessedassurance » Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:33 pm

banjo wrote:How long before someone makes a serious argument that H is not worth sticker debt? If you look at rayiner's unemployment data, it's clear that there are at least a handful of un/underemployed H graduates. At the moment, we simply give H (and Y an S) the benefit of the doubt, trusting in anecdotes and saying that available employment data simply doesn't capture the range of opportunities that HLS grads really have. But would it shock anyone if we found out that 15-20% of HLS grads slipped through the cracks? It's a pretty large class...


People at HYS are generally smart enough to realize Big Law should be a fall-back option.

There are a lot of people at H who secure positions after SA-ing and decide to do something else. I'm sure it's the same at Y/S. Of course there are always going to be a couple of people that are genuinely unemployed but this shit is getting ridiculous.

15-20%?

User avatar
sunynp
Posts: 1899
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 2:06 pm

Re: Paying full sticker?

Postby sunynp » Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:39 pm

How many people are actually paying full stitcher at Harvard through loans?
Also Harvard has that good LRAP program.

Though if you don't pass the bar or get admitted you might end up blogging at ATL for a living.

User avatar
vanwinkle
Posts: 9740
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:02 am

Re: Paying full sticker?

Postby vanwinkle » Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:47 pm

banjo wrote:How long before someone makes a serious argument that H is not worth sticker debt? If you look at rayiner's unemployment data, it's clear that there are at least a handful of un/underemployed H graduates. At the moment, we simply give H (and Y an S) the benefit of the doubt, trusting in anecdotes and saying that available employment data simply doesn't capture the range of opportunities that HLS grads really have. But would it shock anyone if we found out that 15-20% of HLS grads slipped through the cracks? It's a pretty large class...

This is a good question, but I think the bigger argument is whether it's worth sticker debt even if you do find a job. BigLaw hiring is coming back up, but with lower starting salaries for many new jobs (LinkRemoved), which will make repaying loans take even longer. Not all at HYS who want BigLaw will find it, and while they'll be listed as "employed" they'll make considerably less money. All of HYS have strong LRAP programs today, but there's no guarantee they won't shrink or go away in the future. If the economy doesn't recover soon, then there's the prospect of shrinking endowments/donations while more and more graduates sign up for help, draining these programs. It's likely they'll respond to financial pressure by retooling their LRAPs in a way that forces most alumni to rely on IBR. And tuition keeps rising each year.

If you're really sure you want to be a lawyer, then HYS are still worth it, but it's not clear how much longer that'll be true.

User avatar
Blessedassurance
Posts: 2081
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:42 pm

Re: Paying full sticker?

Postby Blessedassurance » Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:00 pm

I don't know the numbers but roughly half according to figures floating around this site.

LIPP is pretty good. Arguably the most generous program in the nation. There are also all kinds of fellowships and shit too if you want to make schooling a career. For the most part, I think most graduates at HYS will be fine.

People enter H with varying aspirations. Like seriously, the number of people who have done super prestigious things in a given class is unbelievable. I doubt a guy or girl who's been in charge of running sub-divisions of an entire foreign country wants to live in a shared apartment in New York, New York, doing mind-numbingly boring shit with inevitable shit-canness looming over his or her head.

I don't think some people on this site realize most people last just long enough in BigLaw to pay off student loans.

RickyDnwhyc
Posts: 161
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:04 pm

Re: Paying full sticker?

Postby RickyDnwhyc » Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:01 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
banjo wrote:How long before someone makes a serious argument that H is not worth sticker debt? If you look at rayiner's unemployment data, it's clear that there are at least a handful of un/underemployed H graduates. At the moment, we simply give H (and Y an S) the benefit of the doubt, trusting in anecdotes and saying that available employment data simply doesn't capture the range of opportunities that HLS grads really have. But would it shock anyone if we found out that 15-20% of HLS grads slipped through the cracks? It's a pretty large class...

This is a good question, but I think the bigger argument is whether it's worth sticker debt even if you do find a job. BigLaw hiring is coming back up, but with lower starting salaries for many new jobs (LinkRemoved), which will make repaying loans take even longer. Not all at HYS who want BigLaw will find it, and while they'll be listed as "employed" they'll make considerably less money. All of HYS have strong LRAP programs today, but there's no guarantee they won't shrink or go away in the future. If the economy doesn't recover soon, then there's the prospect of shrinking endowments/donations while more and more graduates sign up for help, draining these programs. It's likely they'll respond to financial pressure by retooling their LRAPs in a way that forces most alumni to rely on IBR. And tuition keeps rising each year.

If you're really sure you want to be a lawyer, then HYS are still worth it, but it's not clear how much longer that'll be true.


I'm hearing this a lot. Could anyone provide some references to this trend? Does this mean 0Ls and 1Ls have something to look forward to?

User avatar
vanwinkle
Posts: 9740
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:02 am

Re: Paying full sticker?

Postby vanwinkle » Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:06 pm

Blessedassurance wrote:I don't think some people on this site realize most people last just long enough in BigLaw to pay off student loans.

But that's the point; to do that, you first have to get BigLaw, and firms are starting to pay even less starting out now, which means paying off loans (and deferring real plans) will take longer. Not everyone who goes to H who wants BigLaw gets it, either, which means they don't last long enough in BigLaw to pay off their loans, which means they're dragging around something like $150-200K in loans with much lower paying jobs.

There are fellowships and stipends and alternative placement options, but some folks at H aren't taking those things because it's what they want, they're taking them because it's what they can get, and the school still gets to list them as "employed". This isn't a large number of grads right now, but it certainly could grow if the economy takes another dip.

User avatar
breadbucket
Posts: 170
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:57 pm

Re: Paying full sticker?

Postby breadbucket » Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:11 pm

stillwater wrote: RAGES.

splitmuch
Posts: 968
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:27 pm

Re: Paying full sticker?

Postby splitmuch » Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:12 pm

Operating on only anecdotal info but check out this yrs nu and uchi oci threads, and id be hesitant to say things are picking up in the chi market.

User avatar
IAFG
Posts: 6665
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:26 pm

Re: Paying full sticker?

Postby IAFG » Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:28 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
Blessedassurance wrote:I don't think some people on this site realize most people last just long enough in BigLaw to pay off student loans.

But that's the point; to do that, you first have to get BigLaw, and firms are starting to pay even less starting out now, which means paying off loans (and deferring real plans) will take longer. Not everyone who goes to H who wants BigLaw gets it, either, which means they don't last long enough in BigLaw to pay off their loans, which means they're dragging around something like $150-200K in loans with much lower paying jobs.

There are fellowships and stipends and alternative placement options, but some folks at H aren't taking those things because it's what they want, they're taking them because it's what they can get, and the school still gets to list them as "employed". This isn't a large number of grads right now, but it certainly could grow if the economy takes another dip.

VanWinkle, there isnt really evidence that firms are starting to pay less base now. A tiny sliver of firms did lower salaries, most of those jobs are back up to 160, and a lot of firms had been paying 145 all along, but hired fewer people which allowed the median to float up.

If you want to point to issues with the comp system, let's look at anemic bonuses while tuitions continue to rise. But the change in base numbers is a red herring.

User avatar
unc0mm0n1
Posts: 1714
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 1:06 pm

Re: Paying full sticker?

Postby unc0mm0n1 » Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:13 pm

bobbypin wrote:Someone on another board said that any school that has a 157 as the 25% is not worth paying full sticker.

Are there any schools worth paying full sticker price?
If so, what is it about them that makes this so?

The reason behind this questions is that my local school, Lewis and Clark, has 156 as the 25%. I'm seriously considering attending even if I am not offered any scholarship money to attend. Is that seriously unwise?


I wouldn't pay sticker anywhere. But i also wasn't sure I wanted to be a lawyer when I first started law school and the last thing I wanted was a debt that forced me to take some job I didn't want.

User avatar
BarbellDreams
Posts: 2256
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:10 pm

Re: Paying full sticker?

Postby BarbellDreams » Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:13 pm

Dude, you're gonna lol really hard at yourself if you to to L&C at sticker or anywhere close to sticker. Everything in this thread that vanwinkle said is 100% dead on. EVERYTHING. Re-take or don't go.

lutcf2021
Posts: 94
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:26 pm

Re: Paying full sticker?

Postby lutcf2021 » Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:08 pm

Only school worth going to at full price is Cooley, bro.

Not even Yale and stanford compare.
The rankings show the proof. obviously. http://www.cooley.edu/rankings/overall2010.html

User avatar
BarcaCrossesTheAlps
Posts: 408
Joined: Wed May 11, 2011 11:43 am

Re: Paying full sticker?

Postby BarcaCrossesTheAlps » Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:33 pm

lutcf2021 wrote:Only school worth going to at full price is Cooley, bro.

Not even Yale and stanford compare.
The rankings show the proof. obviously. http://www.cooley.edu/rankings/overall2010.html



Hehe. Just in case OP doesn't know, the above is TOTAL sarcasm.

User avatar
HBBJohnStamos
Posts: 456
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Paying full sticker?

Postby HBBJohnStamos » Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:52 pm

BarcaCrossesTheAlps wrote:
lutcf2021 wrote:Only school worth going to at full price is Cooley, bro.

Not even Yale and stanford compare.
The rankings show the proof. obviously. http://www.cooley.edu/rankings/overall2010.html



Hehe. Just in case OP doesn't know, the above is TOTAL sarcasm.


Nice meta-sarcasm here.

User avatar
BarcaCrossesTheAlps
Posts: 408
Joined: Wed May 11, 2011 11:43 am

Re: Paying full sticker?

Postby BarcaCrossesTheAlps » Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:51 pm

HBBJohnStamos wrote:
BarcaCrossesTheAlps wrote:
lutcf2021 wrote:Only school worth going to at full price is Cooley, bro.

Not even Yale and stanford compare.
The rankings show the proof. obviously. http://www.cooley.edu/rankings/overall2010.html



Hehe. Just in case OP doesn't know, the above is TOTAL sarcasm.


Nice meta-sarcasm here.



You give me too much credit, Sir!




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], carlos_danger and 2 guests