Paying full sticker?

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
User avatar
bobbypin
Posts: 256
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:50 pm

Paying full sticker?

Postby bobbypin » Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:35 pm

Someone on another board said that any school that has a 157 as the 25% is not worth paying full sticker.

Are there any schools worth paying full sticker price?
If so, what is it about them that makes this so?

The reason behind this questions is that my local school, Lewis and Clark, has 156 as the 25%. I'm seriously considering attending even if I am not offered any scholarship money to attend. Is that seriously unwise?

User avatar
stillwater
Posts: 3811
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:59 pm

Re: Paying full sticker?

Postby stillwater » Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:37 pm

Definitely not a good look. There are a couple schools worth sticker: one is in Cambridge, one is in New Haven, one is in Palo Alto. After that the debate rages, RAGES.

RickyDnwhyc
Posts: 161
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:04 pm

Re: Paying full sticker?

Postby RickyDnwhyc » Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:41 pm

Yes. It's unwise. Do not do it.

Retake the LSAT and go to a better school unless you really really really want to pay six figures for a JD and have a really really really good chance of never finding substantive legal employment.

User avatar
vanwinkle
Posts: 9740
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:02 am

Re: Paying full sticker?

Postby vanwinkle » Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:43 pm

bobbypin wrote:Someone on another board said that any school that has a 157 as the 25% is not worth paying full sticker.

They are correct.

bobbypin wrote:Are there any schools worth paying full sticker price?

HYS.

bobbypin wrote:If so, what is it about them that makes this so?

Excellent job placement odds, strong LRAP programs, bragging rights.

bobbypin wrote:The reason behind this questions is that my local school, Lewis and Clark, has 156 as the 25%. I'm seriously considering attending even if I am not offered any scholarship money to attend. Is that seriously unwise?

Yes.

Since you'll ask why, here's why: You will graduate with $160-180K in debt, and unless job openings magically quadruple in the next three years, it's likely that you will not find legal employment when you graduate. There simply will not be jobs for you. Yes, some graduates of L&C will find actual paying law-related work each year, but most don't, and you can't know in advance if you'll be one of the lucky few or the jilted majority. Student loan debt is not dischargeable in bankruptcy absent truly extraordinary circumstances, so your six figures in debt will follow you for decades to come.

Don't go. Seriously. Don't go.

User avatar
ndirish2010
Posts: 2950
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:41 pm

Re: Paying full sticker?

Postby ndirish2010 » Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:43 pm

The search function is extremely helpful.

User avatar
cinephile
Posts: 3469
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 3:50 pm

Re: Paying full sticker?

Postby cinephile » Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:44 pm

CUNY actually isn't terrible. It's like 10k a year, right?

User avatar
ndirish2010
Posts: 2950
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:41 pm

Re: Paying full sticker?

Postby ndirish2010 » Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:44 pm

BYU.

User avatar
bobbypin
Posts: 256
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:50 pm

Re: Paying full sticker?

Postby bobbypin » Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:47 pm

I expect to practice in Oregon. L&C is THE school here. Most of the lawyers practicing here, attended L&C.
The fact that it is an extremely strong regional school doesn't change the opinion about paying for school?

(Not trying to convince anyone, just share information)


Thank you all for your responses. I truly appreciate them.

User avatar
vanwinkle
Posts: 9740
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:02 am

Re: Paying full sticker?

Postby vanwinkle » Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:49 pm

bobbypin wrote:I expect to practice in Oregon. L&C is THE school here. Most of the lawyers practicing here, attended L&C.
The fact that it is an extremely strong regional school doesn't change the opinion about paying for school?

(Not trying to convince anyone, just share information)


Thank you all for your responses. I truly appreciate them.

Read this, and then ask yourself, how much has the economy improved since 2010?

http://www.bizjournals.com/portland/sto ... l?page=all

EDIT: Also: http://www.oregonlive.com/business/inde ... ncrea.html

RickyDnwhyc
Posts: 161
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:04 pm

Re: Paying full sticker?

Postby RickyDnwhyc » Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:51 pm

bobbypin wrote:I expect to practice in Oregon. L&C is THE school here. Most of the lawyers practicing here, attended L&C.
The fact that it is an extremely strong regional school doesn't change the opinion about paying for school?

(Not trying to convince anyone, just share information)


Thank you all for your responses. I truly appreciate them.


Are you shooting for BigLaw? Because you'd need to be at the very top of your school to get that 160k salary. Biglaw does most of their recruiting at the top schools. And If you don't get BigLaw, you will most likely end up in a 40k-50k paying position if you're very very fortunate, and paying off those loans on that salary will effectively cripple you financially for the better part of life.

User avatar
052220151
Posts: 2421
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:58 am

Re: Paying full sticker?

Postby 052220151 » Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:53 pm

bobbypin wrote:I expect to practice in Oregon. L&C is THE school here. Most of the lawyers practicing here, attended L&C.
The fact that it is an extremely strong regional school doesn't change the opinion about paying for school?

(Not trying to convince anyone, just share information)


Thank you all for your responses. I truly appreciate them.


Bobbypin I am also an Oregonian and I work at one if the most preftigious firms in Portland and the NW. The proportion of new hires between L&C grads to T14 grads is enormous. While I do know several first or second year associates from uoregon, L&C and willamette, they are definitely not as common as new T14 associates. This is what you should do:

1) study harder for the LSAT
2) go to a T14
3) try to come back to Oregon
4) ?????
5) profit (at least be employed)

Feel free to PM me if you want.

User avatar
Yukos
Posts: 1775
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:47 pm

Re: Paying full sticker?

Postby Yukos » Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:26 pm

cinephile wrote:CUNY actually isn't terrible. It's like 10k a year, right?


What's better, paying $200k for 50% chance at a job or paying $30k for a 0% chance at a job?

User avatar
ndirish2010
Posts: 2950
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:41 pm

Re: Paying full sticker?

Postby ndirish2010 » Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:28 pm

30K, because you're 100% guaranteed not to be totally fucked.

CUNY's employment rate is better than that though.

User avatar
Yukos
Posts: 1775
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:47 pm

Re: Paying full sticker?

Postby Yukos » Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:44 pm

ndirish2010 wrote:30K, because you're 100% guaranteed not to be totally fucked.

CUNY's employment rate is better than that though.


That was actually an honest question, I think you could make an argument either way. For the record they have a 36% LT-FT score, a third of which (12%) is school funded. And 0% large-firm score. So my math wasn't that far off.

splitmuch
Posts: 968
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:27 pm

Re: Paying full sticker?

Postby splitmuch » Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:50 pm

I'm paying full sticker at a T14, and I "won" that gamble, have a 160 paying, big firm SA. I even had a 1l SA to lessen the debt and I really like law practice (what I've been able to learn of it) and am excited to be a lawyer.

And my debt level STILL makes me have second thoughts about it.

User avatar
IAFG
Posts: 6665
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:26 pm

Re: Paying full sticker?

Postby IAFG » Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:55 pm

deputydog wrote:
bobbypin wrote:I expect to practice in Oregon. L&C is THE school here. Most of the lawyers practicing here, attended L&C.
The fact that it is an extremely strong regional school doesn't change the opinion about paying for school?

(Not trying to convince anyone, just share information)


Thank you all for your responses. I truly appreciate them.


Bobbypin I am also an Oregonian and I work at one if the most preftigious firms in Portland and the NW. The proportion of new hires between L&C grads to T14 grads is enormous. While I do know several first or second year associates from uoregon, L&C and willamette, they are definitely not as common as new T14 associates.

I'm from Oregon too, and gave the original advice in question.

Even if L&C got every single job in Oregon, I would still be very nervous about attending. So it's not just a question of proportion taken up by L&C grads, but also total number of jobs and at what salary.

I would not go into debt for law school unless I were 1) admitted to a law school with excellent overall placement and 2) willing to work outside the Pacific Northwest if I missed one of the relatively few jobs available there.

bobbypin wrote:I expect to practice in Oregon. L&C is THE school here. Most of the lawyers practicing here, attended L&C.
The fact that it is an extremely strong regional school doesn't change the opinion about paying for school?


Here is the problem with your reasoning: you're exclusively looking at the people who were successful (e.g. found jobs as practicing attorneys in the state of Oregon). By only looking at who was successful in launching their legal career, you don't see all the sad outcomes of people waiting tables with their L&C JDs.

User avatar
ndirish2010
Posts: 2950
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:41 pm

Re: Paying full sticker?

Postby ndirish2010 » Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:58 pm

Yukos wrote:
ndirish2010 wrote:30K, because you're 100% guaranteed not to be totally fucked.

CUNY's employment rate is better than that though.


That was actually an honest question, I think you could make an argument either way. For the record they have a 36% LT-FT score, a third of which (12%) is school funded. And 0% large-firm score. So my math wasn't that far off.


It was an honest answer too.

timbs4339
Posts: 2733
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:19 pm

Re: Paying full sticker?

Postby timbs4339 » Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:10 pm

Yukos wrote:
cinephile wrote:CUNY actually isn't terrible. It's like 10k a year, right?


What's better, paying $200k for 50% chance at a job or paying $30k for a 0% chance at a job?


You could always pay 150K for that same 0% chance in the NY market by going to Touro, NYLS, Hofstra, St. Johns.

User avatar
snailio
Posts: 209
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2011 2:40 am

Re: Paying full sticker?

Postby snailio » Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:15 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
bobbypin wrote:Someone on another board said that any school that has a 157 as the 25% is not worth paying full sticker.

They are correct.

bobbypin wrote:Are there any schools worth paying full sticker price?

HYS.

bobbypin wrote:If so, what is it about them that makes this so?

Excellent job placement odds, strong LRAP programs, bragging rights.

bobbypin wrote:The reason behind this questions is that my local school, Lewis and Clark, has 156 as the 25%. I'm seriously considering attending even if I am not offered any scholarship money to attend. Is that seriously unwise?

Yes.

Since you'll ask why, here's why: You will graduate with $160-180K in debt, and unless job openings magically quadruple in the next three years, it's likely that you will not find legal employment when you graduate. There simply will not be jobs for you. Yes, some graduates of L&C will find actual paying law-related work each year, but most don't, and you can't know in advance if you'll be one of the lucky few or the jilted majority. Student loan debt is not dischargeable in bankruptcy absent truly extraordinary circumstances, so your six figures in debt will follow you for decades to come.

Don't go. Seriously. Don't go.




This is absolutely the credited response, take the advice.

User avatar
Yukos
Posts: 1775
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:47 pm

Re: Paying full sticker?

Postby Yukos » Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:17 pm

timbs4339 wrote:
Yukos wrote:
cinephile wrote:CUNY actually isn't terrible. It's like 10k a year, right?


What's better, paying $200k for 50% chance at a job or paying $30k for a 0% chance at a job?


You could always pay 150K for that same 0% chance in the NY market by going to Touro, NYLS, Hofstra, St. Johns.


I actually love CUNY. They've managed to extricate themselves from the whole rankings rat race and charge what law school, in a perfect world, should cost. And they still have a really nice building and a decent selection of classes. They would be a great model for regional schools everywhere.

But it's hard to ignore those employment statistics...

User avatar
sunynp
Posts: 1899
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 2:06 pm

Re: Paying full sticker?

Postby sunynp » Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:20 pm

bobbypin wrote:Someone on another board said that any school that has a 157 as the 25% is not worth paying full sticker.

Are there any schools worth paying full sticker price?
If so, what is it about them that makes this so?

The reason behind this questions is that my local school, Lewis and Clark, has 156 as the 25%. I'm seriously considering attending even if I am not offered any scholarship money to attend. Is that seriously unwise?

Yes. Figure out what your cost of attendance will be for three years including interest starting from the day it is borrowed.

User avatar
rinkrat19
Posts: 13918
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2010 5:35 am

Re: Paying full sticker?

Postby rinkrat19 » Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:31 pm

OP, I almost went to L&C. I had a scholarship for about 70% of tuition. Then I found TLS and learned about employment stats and the absolutely miniscule size of the Portland legal market. I decided I would rather pay sticker price at a lower T14 that would at least give me some options in other markets if Portland doesn't work out. (It turned out I got a reasonable scholly here too, but I didn't have any expectation of that when I made my decision.)

There are about 30 summer associate positions in Portland. THIRTY. The three Oregon schools get about half. The other half are students from better schools and a few internationals.
http://034aac7.netsolhost.com/WordPress/law-students/

Those SAs hopefully turn into post-grad jobs. Those are the jobs that would allow you to pay off six figures of student loan without working for the government/a non-profit and relying on LRAP. That is the complete list. If 10 people at Lewis & Clark get a great firm job every year, what is everyone else doing?

User avatar
iMisto
Posts: 658
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:55 pm

Re: Paying full sticker?

Postby iMisto » Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:50 pm

splitmuch wrote:I'm paying full sticker at a T14, and I "won" that gamble, have a 160 paying, big firm SA. I even had a 1l SA to lessen the debt and I really like law practice (what I've been able to learn of it) and am excited to be a lawyer.

And my debt level STILL makes me have second thoughts about it.


Could you explain why you're still having second thoughts? If you don't care to elaborate here, you can PM me. TIA!

splitmuch
Posts: 968
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:27 pm

Re: Paying full sticker?

Postby splitmuch » Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:02 pm

iMisto wrote:
splitmuch wrote:I'm paying full sticker at a T14, and I "won" that gamble, have a 160 paying, big firm SA. I even had a 1l SA to lessen the debt and I really like law practice (what I've been able to learn of it) and am excited to be a lawyer.

And my debt level STILL makes me have second thoughts about it.


Could you explain why you're still having second thoughts? If you don't care to elaborate here, you can PM me. TIA!


My debt. 75 last yr. 60 this year. Call it 55 next year. That's 185. Plus another 20+ in interest before I graduate. Calling it 205, the vast majority of it at 7.9 interest, I'll be paying 16,000+ a year in simple interest (first year). At 160, take home will be around 110 for me. Interest payment takes that down to 95. If I want to pay off the principle in 5 yearsd, that 40k principle per year. Takes it down to 55 take home. Now, that's nothing to be upset about in this environment, excpet for the fact that Ill be working 70+ hr weeks. I have a lot of friends in ibanking and the way they handle their long hours is to enjoy the amount of disposable income they have which is more than 2X what I'll be having.

Further, there is no guarantee that Ill be able to last 5 years in big law. Mostly from the firm's side, but also because I can't be sure I can handle the lifestyle until I live it.

That is not to say I'm going to be completely screwed, I'll be ok unless I screw up within the first three years. My point is, though, that the best case scenario of going through law school at sticker price aint all that great.

timbs4339
Posts: 2733
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:19 pm

Re: Paying full sticker?

Postby timbs4339 » Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:42 am

Yukos wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:
Yukos wrote:
cinephile wrote:CUNY actually isn't terrible. It's like 10k a year, right?


What's better, paying $200k for 50% chance at a job or paying $30k for a 0% chance at a job?


You could always pay 150K for that same 0% chance in the NY market by going to Touro, NYLS, Hofstra, St. Johns.


I actually love CUNY. They've managed to extricate themselves from the whole rankings rat race and charge what law school, in a perfect world, should cost. And they still have a really nice building and a decent selection of classes. They would be a great model for regional schools everywhere.

But it's hard to ignore those employment statistics...


Right, CUNY proves that you don't need to run an ABA accredited law school on 50K per student per year. It also proves that you can't simply buy a USNWR ranking with money (and at around 100, they aren't doing terrible on those stats) since its compeetitor schools charge so much more for little benefit. If you absolutely HAVE to go to law school at that level, you better hope you get into CUNY or one of the equally cheap southern/western schools.




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 6 guests