Georgetown Job Placement

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tectonic
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Georgetown Job Placement

Postby tectonic » Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:12 pm

Can anyone elaborate on what type of work most Georgetown grads go into (and where that work is located)?

Law School Transparency indicates that ~43% of grads stay in DC, ~19% go to NY and ~8% go to California.

This seems at odds with the notion that the DC market is particularly difficult to find employment in, which I've seen several different people suggest. Unless most of those who stay in DC are placing in to much smaller firms? Any insight into this?

At the moment, it seems to me like Georgetown sort of lacks a "home market". Am I mistaken?

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banjo
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Re: Georgetown Job Placement

Postby banjo » Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:00 am

That's 43% out of only 62% in LT FT legal jobs. Georgetown also boasts a 13% school-funded rate. --LinkRemoved--

ajax
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Re: Georgetown Job Placement

Postby ajax » Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:18 am

banjo wrote:That's 43% out of only 62% in LT FT legal jobs. Georgetown also boasts a 13% school-funded rate. --LinkRemoved--


For this guy/gal we should probably spell it out:

LT= Long Term
FT= Full Time

Not very bright employment stats for GULC considering its ranking.

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No13baby
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Re: Georgetown Job Placement

Postby No13baby » Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:20 am

Georgetown's home market is DC, it's just a really difficult home market to find work in. Georgetown also has a huge class size, making for a rough combination.

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sunynp
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Re: Georgetown Job Placement

Postby sunynp » Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:26 am

ajax wrote:
banjo wrote:That's 43% out of only 62% in LT FT legal jobs. Georgetown also boasts a 13% school-funded rate. --LinkRemoved--


For this guy/gal we should probably spell it out:

LT= Long Term
FT= Full Time

Not very bright employment stats for GULC considering its ranking.


Ranking and employment are not 100% correlated ( as im sure you know but a surprising number of applicants don't. )This is why researching actual employment stats like OP is doing in this thread is extremely important.

BigZuck
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Re: Georgetown Job Placement

Postby BigZuck » Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:12 am

Given these poor employment stats, the school's stingyness in regards to scholarships, and the high cost of living is there any reason to even apply if one already has another T14 option? I was planning on blanketing the bottom of the T14 but I can't find anything appealing about Georgetown (other than me thinking DC is a cool city).

mvpforme
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Re: Georgetown Job Placement

Postby mvpforme » Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:20 am

You can get scholarship from Gtown if you express interest (and can use this to leverage other scholarship). You can also get a fee waiver.

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thelawyler
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Re: Georgetown Job Placement

Postby thelawyler » Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:32 am

BigZuck wrote:Given these poor employment stats, the school's stingyness in regards to scholarships, and the high cost of living is there any reason to even apply if one already has another T14 option? I was planning on blanketing the bottom of the T14 but I can't find anything appealing about Georgetown (other than me thinking DC is a cool city).

I got a very generous 100k+ scholarship as a splitter. I'd say it's worth an application as I think they handed out a lot of cash last year.

ajax
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Re: Georgetown Job Placement

Postby ajax » Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:41 am

sunynp wrote:
ajax wrote:
banjo wrote:That's 43% out of only 62% in LT FT legal jobs. Georgetown also boasts a 13% school-funded rate. --LinkRemoved--


For this guy/gal we should probably spell it out:

LT= Long Term
FT= Full Time

Not very bright employment stats for GULC considering its ranking.


Ranking and employment are not 100% correlated ( as im sure you know but a surprising number of applicants don't. )This is why researching actual employment stats like OP is doing in this thread is extremely important.


Agree.

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TheThriller
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Re: Georgetown Job Placement

Postby TheThriller » Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:34 pm

If GT is your only T14 option though....

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IAFG
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Re: Georgetown Job Placement

Postby IAFG » Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:39 pm

TheThriller wrote:If GT is your only T14 option though....

I am not commenting on GULC's placement, because I think there's lots of room for doubt about self-selection and different priorities relative to other T14s, but this mentality isn't very useful. If it's true that GULC students are less able to get large firm jobs, applicants may be better off at cheaper flagship schools or otherwise non-T14s.

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TheThriller
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Re: Georgetown Job Placement

Postby TheThriller » Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:42 pm

IAFG wrote:
TheThriller wrote:If GT is your only T14 option though....

I am not commenting on GULC's placement, because I think there's lots of room for doubt about self-selection and different priorities relative to other T14s, but this mentality isn't very useful. If it's true that GULC students are less able to get large firm jobs, applicants may be better off at cheaper flagship schools or otherwise non-T14s.


I thought TLS advocates a T14 or bust mentality. Interested in this; being a splitter who wants BigLaw/PI/Gov.

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WhiteyCakes
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Re: Georgetown Job Placement

Postby WhiteyCakes » Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:49 pm

TheThriller wrote:
IAFG wrote:
TheThriller wrote:If GT is your only T14 option though....

I am not commenting on GULC's placement, because I think there's lots of room for doubt about self-selection and different priorities relative to other T14s, but this mentality isn't very useful. If it's true that GULC students are less able to get large firm jobs, applicants may be better off at cheaper flagship schools or otherwise non-T14s.


I thought TLS advocates a T14 or bust mentality. Interested in this; being a splitter who wants BigLaw/PI/Gov.


Agreed- your advice seems very contradictory to the TLS dogma

09042014
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Re: Georgetown Job Placement

Postby 09042014 » Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:50 pm

I would guess that if CCN students focused on DC big law as much as Gtown students did their NLJ250 numbers would suck dick too (NYU's already does).

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IAFG
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Re: Georgetown Job Placement

Postby IAFG » Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:55 pm

TheThriller wrote:
IAFG wrote:
TheThriller wrote:If GT is your only T14 option though....

I am not commenting on GULC's placement, because I think there's lots of room for doubt about self-selection and different priorities relative to other T14s, but this mentality isn't very useful. If it's true that GULC students are less able to get large firm jobs, applicants may be better off at cheaper flagship schools or otherwise non-T14s.


I thought TLS advocates a T14 or bust mentality. Interested in this; being a splitter who wants BigLaw/PI/Gov.

Hiring has changed a lot over the course of TLS's existence. T14 or bust was once a more useful rule of thumb (back when T14s could place just about anyone who wanted biglaw in a market-paying job and USNWR was a safe enough proxy for job prospects).

I think we need a new ranking that accounts for LRAP-eligable, gov't JD-required and some subset of firms (Vault, NLJ250, NLJ350, something like that) because this should be applicants' focus. The problem is, while the firm info isn't so hard to come by (see rayiner's number crunching on placement) it's not really appropriate to leave out PI/Gov.

That said, I would still be tempted to give GULC the benefit of the doubt, because there are plenty of decent JD-preferred jobs in DC (with special interest groups, in politics, etc) and I suspect GULC applicants are more likely to have the requisite work experience and connections to actually get those jobs.

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bk1
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Re: Georgetown Job Placement

Postby bk1 » Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:15 pm

TheThriller wrote:
IAFG wrote:
TheThriller wrote:If GT is your only T14 option though....

I am not commenting on GULC's placement, because I think there's lots of room for doubt about self-selection and different priorities relative to other T14s, but this mentality isn't very useful. If it's true that GULC students are less able to get large firm jobs, applicants may be better off at cheaper flagship schools or otherwise non-T14s.


I thought TLS advocates a T14 or bust mentality. Interested in this; being a splitter who wants BigLaw/PI/Gov.


If you really want biglaw, you really shouldn't go much lower (I say much because an argument might be made for UT/Vandy/USC/UCLA but I'm not 100% sure of that). I personally think that the risk of sticker is worth it for a T13 (ignoring GULC for the moment) if you want biglaw and assuming you are okay with NYC. That being said, having seen many of my classmates go through OCI this year, it is quite risky since many above median people have struggled. Though at a lower ranked school you are, more likely than not, foreclosing biglaw.

Whether GULC is worth it might be different. I've posted this a few times:

bk1 wrote:I'll agree that GULC gets hurt by its large class size but I feel that TLS exaggerates the difference between it and the rest of the T14 (consider that GULCers are more likely to want govt work and are more likely to target DC, one of the hardest markets, rather than NYC, one of the easiest markets). I could be wrong but I feel that it is a lot of conjecture on either side of the argument. I understand that this is a simplistic analysis but looking at NLJ250 data (which of course doesn't account for clerkships and a myriad other things): GULC was within 0.5% of UMich in 2011, within 0.5% of Duke in 2010, over 1% ahead of Cornell in 2009, roughly 5% behind UMich (50vs55) in 2008, roughly 5% behind Berkeley (48vs53) in 2007, almost 5% ahead of Berkeley (53vs49) in 2006, and tied with Berkeley in 2005. Yes GULC is the laggard at the tail end of the T14 because it has a lot of students, but I would not say that the difference is substantial enough to dismiss it outright when compared to another lower T14 at similar cost.


Granted a lot of that data is old and GULC has been struggling in recent years. I personally think GULC at sticker would be okay, but I operate under the assumption that GULC's numbers are at least slightly tanked due to its students targeting DC and trying to get gov work. That assumption could be wrong and were I to have gone to GULC at sticker it might have screwed me, but it might be right. The issue is that prospective students don't really know and almost can't know. And yes, the bottom of the class (in terms of outcomes) does worse in terms of LT/FT legal employment at GULC than other T14s, but if you're paying sticker the bottom barrel outcomes at any school will fuck you financially. It's also fair to point out that GULC takes a substantial number of transfers who likely don't great at OCI considering they often come from T2/T3 schools (keg would know better than I and I definitely could be wrong, but my guess is that in the aggregate these students do not increase GULC's employment stats). There are also other troubling things about GULC (abysmally low clerkship numbers compared to other T14s).

I don't think it's an easy choice and I think there are a lot of things to consider. Ideally as a splitter you'd go elsewhere (NU/UVA) since you don't have to use rationales/assumptions to make their numbers look better, but that isn't always an option.

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IAFG
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Re: Georgetown Job Placement

Postby IAFG » Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:35 pm

bk1 wrote:
If you really want biglaw, you really shouldn't go much lower (I say much because an argument might be made for UT/Vandy/USC/UCLA but I'm not 100% sure of that). I personally think that the risk of sticker is worth it for a T13 (ignoring GULC for the moment) if you want biglaw and assuming you are okay with NYC. That being said, having seen many of my classmates go through OCI this year, it is quite risky since many above median people have struggled. Though at a lower ranked school you are, more likely than not, foreclosing biglaw.

Well, you know, as Campos keeps trying to say, maybe you just shouldn't go to law school. If GULC's placement really is that shitty, their mystical T14 status isn't that useful to you, and if that's the best you can do, maybe you shouldn't go to law school at all. But, I'm not ready to write GULC off yet.

09042014
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Re: Georgetown Job Placement

Postby 09042014 » Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:39 pm

Isn't Gtown harder to get into than Cornell and Michigan anyway?

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twenty
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Re: Georgetown Job Placement

Postby twenty » Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:40 pm

Speaking from a somewhat-inside point of view here, a lot of federal employees/federal contractors/etc pay for their employees to pursue their graduate degrees. My agency pays a substantial amount of student loans (60k~) for folks that are willing to go for an advanced degree while already employed in a non-JD-required position. Keep in mind that Georgetown also has a significant part time program. If you lived in DC and had the option of having your employer pay for your advanced degree, a PT JD from Georgetown is a pretty sweet deal, though it will ultimately hurt its full time employment numbers.

To me, GULC and Cornell are peer schools in terms of value, though perhaps not in biglaw placement. Consider this; Cornell has a better "big firm" score on LST than does Yale, and a fairly close full time legal employment score. Far be it to consider that Cornell and Yale are peer schools.

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TheThriller
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Re: Georgetown Job Placement

Postby TheThriller » Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:09 pm

twentypercentmore wrote:Speaking from a somewhat-inside point of view here, a lot of federal employees/federal contractors/etc pay for their employees to pursue their graduate degrees. My agency pays a substantial amount of student loans (60k~) for folks that are willing to go for an advanced degree while already employed in a non-JD-required position. Keep in mind that Georgetown also has a significant part time program. If you lived in DC and had the option of having your employer pay for your advanced degree, a PT JD from Georgetown is a pretty sweet deal, though it will ultimately hurt its full time employment numbers.

To me, GULC and Cornell are peer schools in terms of value, though perhaps not in biglaw placement. Consider this; Cornell has a better "big firm" score on LST than does Yale, and a fairly close full time legal employment score. Far be it to consider that Cornell and Yale are peer schools.


Wouldn't it help since GULC would report those graduates in FT jobs? Sorry if these questions are asinine, but for the record, I just applied ED to the PT program since I have 2 job opportunities in DC that I would like to pursue (both of which are entrance jobs for higher level JD required positions) and now I feel like TLS says I made a bad choice.

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IAFG
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Re: Georgetown Job Placement

Postby IAFG » Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:17 pm

TheThriller wrote:
twentypercentmore wrote:Speaking from a somewhat-inside point of view here, a lot of federal employees/federal contractors/etc pay for their employees to pursue their graduate degrees. My agency pays a substantial amount of student loans (60k~) for folks that are willing to go for an advanced degree while already employed in a non-JD-required position. Keep in mind that Georgetown also has a significant part time program. If you lived in DC and had the option of having your employer pay for your advanced degree, a PT JD from Georgetown is a pretty sweet deal, though it will ultimately hurt its full time employment numbers.

To me, GULC and Cornell are peer schools in terms of value, though perhaps not in biglaw placement. Consider this; Cornell has a better "big firm" score on LST than does Yale, and a fairly close full time legal employment score. Far be it to consider that Cornell and Yale are peer schools.


Wouldn't it help since GULC would report those graduates in FT jobs? Sorry if these questions are asinine, but for the record, I just applied ED to the PT program since I have 2 job opportunities in DC that I would like to pursue (both of which are entrance jobs for higher level JD required positions) and now I feel like TLS says I made a bad choice.

Depends on what is meant by "full time" since they may not be JD required.

If you don't need OCI to get you the job you want and already have an in, why would this thread discourage you?

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TheThriller
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Re: Georgetown Job Placement

Postby TheThriller » Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:24 pm

IAFG wrote:
TheThriller wrote:
twentypercentmore wrote:Speaking from a somewhat-inside point of view here, a lot of federal employees/federal contractors/etc pay for their employees to pursue their graduate degrees. My agency pays a substantial amount of student loans (60k~) for folks that are willing to go for an advanced degree while already employed in a non-JD-required position. Keep in mind that Georgetown also has a significant part time program. If you lived in DC and had the option of having your employer pay for your advanced degree, a PT JD from Georgetown is a pretty sweet deal, though it will ultimately hurt its full time employment numbers.

To me, GULC and Cornell are peer schools in terms of value, though perhaps not in biglaw placement. Consider this; Cornell has a better "big firm" score on LST than does Yale, and a fairly close full time legal employment score. Far be it to consider that Cornell and Yale are peer schools.


Wouldn't it help since GULC would report those graduates in FT jobs? Sorry if these questions are asinine, but for the record, I just applied ED to the PT program since I have 2 job opportunities in DC that I would like to pursue (both of which are entrance jobs for higher level JD required positions) and now I feel like TLS says I made a bad choice.

Depends on what is meant by "full time" since they may not be JD required.

If you don't need OCI to get you the job you want and already have an in, why would this thread discourage you?


I wanted to use the experience I would currently get in my job to make me more desirable for a PI/Gov't position. Just worried now since I expressed a connection with my current job opportunities in my application to GULC. It was my intention to tell them "hey, I'm one less person to worry about in your employment statistics while adding a very unique and diverse professional perspective to the student body". Now I am wondering if they will see this as a negative.

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Yukos
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Re: Georgetown Job Placement

Postby Yukos » Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:53 pm

One of my friends goes to GULC. He did fine at OCI (he's top 10%) but he has plenty of friends who are top 20% and struck out/sweated out OCI. I can't imagine being below median there, and because of GULC's size, that's a lot of people. Cornell and Duke, with their much smaller class sizes, are safer bets among the lower T-14.

tl;dr GULC is kinda terrifying.

ETA: This is obviously anecdotal but I mention it because it conforms with my impression, and the opinion of many TLSers, that GULC's size makes it a risky bet at full-freight.

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bk1
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Re: Georgetown Job Placement

Postby bk1 » Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:04 pm

IAFG wrote:Well, you know, as Campos keeps trying to say, maybe you just shouldn't go to law school. If GULC's placement really is that shitty, their mystical T14 status isn't that useful to you, and if that's the best you can do, maybe you shouldn't go to law school at all. But, I'm not ready to write GULC off yet.

Agreed.

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TheThriller
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Re: Georgetown Job Placement

Postby TheThriller » Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:12 pm

bk1 wrote:
IAFG wrote:Well, you know, as Campos keeps trying to say, maybe you just shouldn't go to law school. If GULC's placement really is that shitty, their mystical T14 status isn't that useful to you, and if that's the best you can do, maybe you shouldn't go to law school at all. But, I'm not ready to write GULC off yet.

Agreed.


Fair enough.




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