National reach, T14, T20

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IAFG
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Re: National reach, T14, T20

Postby IAFG » Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:52 pm

helix23 wrote:no


Okay, well, I can't tell if you get it, so I will just keep talking.

I am referring to the fact that fewer CA firms are going to come to Duke/Cornell/etc. Let's take, for example, Crowell & Moring. Pays $160k. Only had one summer last year, but offered him, and anticipates 8 this year. Not a bad gig at all, particularly from the perspective of a 2L going into OCI with 0 offers in hand.

They recruit at: Loyola Law School - Los Angeles
UCLA School of Law
University of California at Berkeley, Boalt Hall School of Law
University of Southern California Gould School of Law

So if you're not at one of those schools, you have to massmail them to have a shot.

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helix23
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Re: National reach, T14, T20

Postby helix23 » Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:03 pm

IAFG wrote:Okay, well, I can't tell if you get it, so I will just keep talking.

I am referring to the fact that fewer CA firms are going to come to Duke/Cornell/etc. Let's take, for example, Crowell & Moring. Pays $160k. Only had one summer last year, but offered him, and anticipates 8 this year. Not a bad gig at all, particularly from the perspective of a 2L going into OCI with 0 offers in hand.

They recruit at: Loyola Law School - Los Angeles
UCLA School of Law
University of California at Berkeley, Boalt Hall School of Law
University of Southern California Gould School of Law

So if you're not at one of those schools, you have to massmail them to have a shot.


I understand. What I meant was that I believe my ties to be strong enough to not need smaller CA firms for summer. But you never know.

Thanks for the information.

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dingbat
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Re: National reach, T14, T20

Postby dingbat » Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:06 pm

helix23 wrote:I believe my ties to be strong enough tonot need smaller CA firms for summer

You believe wrong

HeavenWood
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Re: National reach, T14, T20

Postby HeavenWood » Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:08 pm

rad lulz wrote:National reach to non-NYC/DC markets to which you do NOT have preexisting ties is an elaborate flame.

Even in DC, ties help significantly.

As far as other markets go, it's not entirely unheard of for a T14 student with good credentials to snag an offer without ties. But's it's definitely an uphill battle (and not something anyone should count on).

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IAFG
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Re: National reach, T14, T20

Postby IAFG » Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:08 pm

helix23 wrote:
I understand. What I meant was that I believe my ties to be strong enough to not need smaller CA firms for summer. But you never know.

Thanks for the information.

Facepalm. Your ties are not what will decide if you "need smaller CA firms." That'll be about grades, luck, the economy, interviewing skills and your resume. No matter what, you will need to apply to them. Frankly, even if you had good grades + LR + 10 yrs of work experience in LA finance, you still would need to apply to more firms than come to T14 OCI for CA. All kinds of people strike out by being foolish enough to lean on OCI alone for secondary markets.

Edit: and the firm I referenced has 500 attorneys, you silly thing. You think you know where you'll need to apply before even seeing which CA firms will come to your OCI? Don't be a fool.

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Re: National reach, T14, T20

Postby HeavenWood » Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:10 pm

IAFG wrote:
helix23 wrote:
I understand. What I meant was that I believe my ties to be strong enough to not need smaller CA firms for summer. But you never know.

Thanks for the information.

Facepalm. Your ties are not what will decide if you "need smaller CA firms." That'll be about grades, luck, the economy, interviewing skills and your resume. No matter what, you will need to apply to them. Frankly, even if you had good grades + LR + 10 yrs of work experience in LA finance, you still would need to apply to more firms than come to T14 OCI for CA. All kinds of people strike out by being foolish enough to lean on OCI alone for secondary markets.

This year, people with top 10% + LR + ironclad LA ties were happy to just get an offer.

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helix23
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Re: National reach, T14, T20

Postby helix23 » Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:11 pm

dingbat wrote:
helix23 wrote:I believe my ties to be strong enough tonot need smaller CA firms for summer

You believe wrong


lol

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helix23
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Re: National reach, T14, T20

Postby helix23 » Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:13 pm

IAFG wrote:Facepalm. Your ties are not what will decide if you "need smaller CA firms." That'll be about grades, luck, the economy, interviewing skills and your resume. No matter what, you will need to apply to them. Frankly, even if you had good grades + LR + 10 yrs of work experience in LA finance, you still would need to apply to more firms than come to T14 OCI for CA. All kinds of people strike out by being foolish enough to lean on OCI alone for secondary markets.

Edit: and the firm I referenced has 500 attorneys, you silly thing. You think you know where you'll need to apply before even seeing which CA firms will come to your OCI? Don't be a fool.


This is why I post here. Getting verbally abused never felt so good.

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dingbat
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Re: National reach, T14, T20

Postby dingbat » Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:16 pm

helix23 wrote:
dingbat wrote:
helix23 wrote:I believe my ties to be strong enough tonot need smaller CA firms for summer

You believe wrong


lol

What I mean is, you don't know whether you'll need smaller firms or not at this point (regardless of location). People at every school manage to strike out at OCI, so why limit yourself

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IAFG
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Re: National reach, T14, T20

Postby IAFG » Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:16 pm

helix23 wrote:This is why I post here. Getting verbally abused never felt so good.

That is actually the "edited for politeness" version of what I first typed out. I am working on my approachability.

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helix23
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Re: National reach, T14, T20

Postby helix23 » Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:18 pm

IAFG wrote:
helix23 wrote:This is why I post here. Getting verbally abused never felt so good.

That is actually the "edited for politeness" version of what I first typed out. I am working on my approachability.


no! don't filter yourself. My feelings aren't very easily hurt so go for it. Plus, we're on the internet. approachability isn't that important.

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bk1
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Re: National reach, T14, T20

Postby bk1 » Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:06 pm

bruinfan10 wrote:LA tends to have bigger classes and generally speaking, it can be an easier market to break into than the Bay. It's also known to be a little less focused on ties than SF/SV. If you're from Norcal and went to law school in LA, I doubt you'd have any problem selling ties to either market.

To give you an idea of how much emphasis the Bay places on ties, I grew up in the Palo Alto area, and SF interviewers specifically questioned me on why I wanted to move into the city. I'm also comparatively young, so the SV firms specifically asked me whether I really wanted to stay on the Peninsula when associates generally prefer SF's faster paced urban environment. For the sake of comparison, when I was hired in LA last summer, they asked me whether I was from CA originally and moved on. Either way it sounds like you'd be OK in either market.


To add a counterpoint:

Your experience differs drastically from mine. I grew up on the other side of the Bay and, while interviewers asked me "why SF?", it was always a softball question. My resume made it pretty obvious I was from NorCal with my undergrad and work history. Heck I had one associate say "I saw the area code on your cell phone and knew I didn't have to ask you 'why here.'" SV firms, while preferring ties, tend to care a lot about the type of work done. SV firms will take people who have 0 ties if they can demonstrate a legitimate commitment to the type of work SV firms do (mainly: tech corporate and IP lit). I did some but not a lot of LA interviewing, but my resume screams NorCal and it was definitely harder (though not impossible) to sell LA. I definitely felt that LA firms were more skeptical of me. It also did not help that when I asked what other firms I was interviewing with I could not say a lot of LA firms.

Gagnam Style
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Re: National reach, T14, T20

Postby Gagnam Style » Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:06 pm

bruinfan10 wrote:
bk1 wrote:Well I wouldn't consider it that encouraging. I don't think things are rosy. I think if you're okay with SV then things are better, but it's not great (and consider that SV corporate work has weather ITE fairly well though there has been a recent dip in the second half of this year). It's still quite easy to strike out in SF/SV. The SV big native firms (Cooley/Fenwick/WSGR) have some of the biggest SA classes in the area. That being said, it's quite hard to get the satellite offices since those places often hire less than 5-10 SAs each. Even with good stats you are fighting over a very minimal number of spots. Overall the aggregate callback median for SF/SV seems to be around top 1/3 (but that's just from eyeballing it). The problem is that when you only have so many bites at the apple, your odds of striking out are higher even if they aren't grade whoring. NYC firms with similar median callback medians hire a metric crapton more kids than the SF/SV firms.

I don't think that people are necessarily "impressed" by lower T14s, but their hiring patterns tend to suggest that they are willing to be as lenient (possibly even more) with class rank at lower T14s than they would. My source is the callback median data that I have seen from my own T14 (published by the CSO) as well as the data I've seen from another T14.

I agree with this 100% in the context of biglaw hiring. My only question is how much of a boost you get from say, Duke, over UCLA - I don't have access to the callback medians for either school - but I would be surprised if Duke gives you significantly more of a GPA cushion for California. When you start moving from there up to MVP, maybe there's more of a comparative benefit over UCLA/USC, but (granting a self-selection problem), there are certainly more UCLA grads at WSGR than there are Michigan, Virginia, or Penn grads. Take that for what it's worth.





I can hardly take you seriously when you think that MVP have some sort of advantage over Duke or Northwestern. Have you seen the most recent employment statistics?

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dingbat
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Re: National reach, T14, T20

Postby dingbat » Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:13 pm

Gagnam Style wrote:I can hardly take you seriously when you think that MVP have some sort of advantage over Duke or Northwestern. Have you seen the most recent employment statistics?

This goes together with people thinking that Seton Hall is much better than Rutgers because it's 13 spots higher on the rankings (or, even better, that BU is better at 26 than BC at 29)

The rankings are not the be-all and end-all of quality (or better yet, employment prospects)

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: National reach, T14, T20

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:05 pm

rad lulz wrote:National reach to non-NYC/DC markets to which you do NOT have preexisting ties is an elaborate flame.


+1

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Re: National reach, T14, T20

Postby bruinfan10 » Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:11 pm

bk1 wrote:Your experience differs drastically from mine. I grew up on the other side of the Bay and, while interviewers asked me "why SF?", it was always a softball question. My resume made it pretty obvious I was from NorCal with my undergrad and work history. Heck I had one associate say "I saw the area code on your cell phone and knew I didn't have to ask you 'why here.'" SV firms, while preferring ties, tend to care a lot about the type of work done. SV firms will take people who have 0 ties if they can demonstrate a legitimate commitment to the type of work SV firms do (mainly: tech corporate and IP lit). I did some but not a lot of LA interviewing, but my resume screams NorCal and it was definitely harder (though not impossible) to sell LA. I definitely felt that LA firms were more skeptical of me. It also did not help that when I asked what other firms I was interviewing with I could not say a lot of LA firms.

Makes sense - I was just pointing out that even with an obvious local like me, the Bay firms talked to me about ties quite a bit, the LA firms not so much. My undergrad/work history is a mix of SoCal and Norcal, so maybe SF brought it up with me a little more/LA a little less than with a pure Norcal guy - either way OP should be able to make it work. As to type of work in SV, my experience conforms with yours: I don't have a tech or corporate background, so I did well with NY satellite offices that handled securities lit/white collar/general commercial, but (despite my fantastic SV ties) I didn't do particularly well with the indigenous tech crowd.
Last edited by bruinfan10 on Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: National reach, T14, T20

Postby Gagnam Style » Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:46 pm

A Duke student who graduates in the top half of his class has a better shot at getting California Big Law than a UCLA/USC law grad who finishes at the top of his/her law class in the South. There's a reason USC/UCLA aren't T-14s.

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bk1
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Re: National reach, T14, T20

Postby bk1 » Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:50 pm

bruinfan10 wrote:As to type of work in SV, my experience conforms with yours: I don't have a tech or corporate background, so I did well with NY satellite offices that handled securities lit/white collar/general commercial, but (despite my fantastic SV ties) I didn't do particularly well with the indigenous tech crowd.


I don't think it's necessarily about background but about selling interest. e.g. reading techcrunch every day, knowing what series seed is, etc. Almost nobody has a corporate background but that doesn't mean they can't sell interest.

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stillwater
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Re: National reach, T14, T20

Postby stillwater » Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:51 pm

bruinfan10 wrote: (not a typo, just egregious anti-NYU trolling, in case you were wondering).


I wasn't

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Re: National reach, T14, T20

Postby Crowing » Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:01 pm

IAFG wrote:
helix23 wrote:This is why I post here. Getting verbally abused never felt so good.

That is actually the "edited for politeness" version of what I first typed out. I am working on my approachability.


Just saw your LSN - pretty scary as your numbers twin. I can't believe you didn't get in Penn ED and got a straight ding from NYU. Was the 2009-10 cycle just especially selective?

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bruinfan10
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Re: National reach, T14, T20

Postby bruinfan10 » Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:31 am

bk1 wrote:I don't think it's necessarily about background but about selling interest. e.g. reading techcrunch every day, knowing what series seed is, etc. Almost nobody has a corporate background but that doesn't mean they can't sell interest.

All of that is wayy beyond me....which a couple SV firms clearly figured out. =)

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IAFG
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Re: National reach, T14, T20

Postby IAFG » Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:38 am

Crowing wrote:
IAFG wrote:
helix23 wrote:This is why I post here. Getting verbally abused never felt so good.

That is actually the "edited for politeness" version of what I first typed out. I am working on my approachability.


Just saw your LSN - pretty scary as your numbers twin. I can't believe you didn't get in Penn ED and got a straight ding from NYU. Was the 2009-10 cycle just especially selective?

Yes, I am told it was the most competitive cycle, but I also applied with a Dec LSAT.

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rayiner
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Re: National reach, T14, T20

Postby rayiner » Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:44 am

I'm not sure if I buy that top 1/4 at non-HYS T14 has an edge over top 1/4 at USC/UCLA when it comes to LA big law.

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IAFG
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Re: National reach, T14, T20

Postby IAFG » Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:48 am

rayiner wrote:I'm not sure if I buy that top 1/4 at non-HYS T14 has an edge over top 1/4 at USC/UCLA when it comes to LA big law.

That will be very useful for all the T14+UCLA/USC applicants who have a crystal ball.




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