T30 Regional BigLaw

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RickyDnwhyc
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Re: T30 Regional BigLaw

Postby RickyDnwhyc » Sat Sep 29, 2012 12:08 am

rayiner wrote:I think your argument is that more people from regional schools would get local big law if they didn't gun for big national firms, is that correct? I think the fact that's undermining that possibility is that there just aren't very many jobs in the smaller regions that don't have a T14+UT/Vandy/UCLA/USC school.

It's been a while since NALP has published a freely-available list of hiring at all NALP firms, but taking a look at this list from 2003 is illustrative: http://www.nalp.org/2004aprpatterespractices. Out of the 7,700 entry level associate positions in 2002, the vast majority, about 85-90% in my estimation, were in regions dominated by a T18 school. The places that aren't, like Miami, Denver, Seattle, etc, have 50-80 jobs apiece, not nearly enough for the hundreds of students at their regional schools.

Note also that the data above is in the middle of the last recession. Hiring during the last boom peaked at 8,250 during 2001 and dropped to an expected 6,800 in 2004: http://www.nalp.org/2005entry-levelhiring. Note that this is for all 600 NALP firms, not just what you might consider national or regional big law.


Thanks, you've covered the better part of my dilemma. I kind of lost track of my original argument.

Conclusion: If I want BigLaw, regional or otherwise, I have to shoot for a T18.

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dingbat
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Re: T30 Regional BigLaw

Postby dingbat » Sat Sep 29, 2012 12:10 am

RickyDnwhyc wrote:
rayiner wrote:I think your argument is that more people from regional schools would get local big law if they didn't gun for big national firms, is that correct? I think the fact that's undermining that possibility is that there just aren't very many jobs in the smaller regions that don't have a T14+UT/Vandy/UCLA/USC school.

It's been a while since NALP has published a freely-available list of hiring at all NALP firms, but taking a look at this list from 2003 is illustrative: http://www.nalp.org/2004aprpatterespractices. Out of the 7,700 entry level associate positions in 2002, the vast majority, about 85-90% in my estimation, were in regions dominated by a T18 school. The places that aren't, like Miami, Denver, Seattle, etc, have 50-80 jobs apiece, not nearly enough for the hundreds of students at their regional schools.

Note also that the data above is in the middle of the last recession. Hiring during the last boom peaked at 8,250 during 2001 and dropped to an expected 6,800 in 2004: http://www.nalp.org/2005entry-levelhiring. Note that this is for all 600 NALP firms, not just what you might consider national or regional big law.


Thanks, you've covered the better part of my dilemma. I kind of lost track of my original argument.

Conclusion: If I want BigLaw, regional or otherwise, I have to shoot for a T1813.

RickyDnwhyc
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Re: T30 Regional BigLaw

Postby RickyDnwhyc » Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:30 pm

dingbat wrote:
RickyDnwhyc wrote:
rayiner wrote:I think your argument is that more people from regional schools would get local big law if they didn't gun for big national firms, is that correct? I think the fact that's undermining that possibility is that there just aren't very many jobs in the smaller regions that don't have a T14+UT/Vandy/UCLA/USC school.

It's been a while since NALP has published a freely-available list of hiring at all NALP firms, but taking a look at this list from 2003 is illustrative: http://www.nalp.org/2004aprpatterespractices. Out of the 7,700 entry level associate positions in 2002, the vast majority, about 85-90% in my estimation, were in regions dominated by a T18 school. The places that aren't, like Miami, Denver, Seattle, etc, have 50-80 jobs apiece, not nearly enough for the hundreds of students at their regional schools.

Note also that the data above is in the middle of the last recession. Hiring during the last boom peaked at 8,250 during 2001 and dropped to an expected 6,800 in 2004: http://www.nalp.org/2005entry-levelhiring. Note that this is for all 600 NALP firms, not just what you might consider national or regional big law.


Thanks, you've covered the better part of my dilemma. I kind of lost track of my original argument.

Conclusion: If I want BigLaw, regional or otherwise, I have to shoot for a T1813.



y u no like GULC?

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dingbat
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Re: T30 Regional BigLaw

Postby dingbat » Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:53 pm

RickyDnwhyc wrote:
dingbat wrote:
RickyDnwhyc wrote:
rayiner wrote:I think your argument is that more people from regional schools would get local big law if they didn't gun for big national firms, is that correct? I think the fact that's undermining that possibility is that there just aren't very many jobs in the smaller regions that don't have a T14+UT/Vandy/UCLA/USC school.

It's been a while since NALP has published a freely-available list of hiring at all NALP firms, but taking a look at this list from 2003 is illustrative: http://www.nalp.org/2004aprpatterespractices. Out of the 7,700 entry level associate positions in 2002, the vast majority, about 85-90% in my estimation, were in regions dominated by a T18 school. The places that aren't, like Miami, Denver, Seattle, etc, have 50-80 jobs apiece, not nearly enough for the hundreds of students at their regional schools.

Note also that the data above is in the middle of the last recession. Hiring during the last boom peaked at 8,250 during 2001 and dropped to an expected 6,800 in 2004: http://www.nalp.org/2005entry-levelhiring. Note that this is for all 600 NALP firms, not just what you might consider national or regional big law.


Thanks, you've covered the better part of my dilemma. I kind of lost track of my original argument.

Conclusion: If I want BigLaw, regional or otherwise, I have to shoot for a T1813.



y u no like GULC?

Numbers wise, there's the T13 (50%+ going to biglaw and/or Fed Clerkship), Georgetown (about 45%) then the better placing schools of the T30 (30-something percent).

Basically, there's a clear distinction between the rest of the T13 and Georgetown in terms of placement percentages (just as there's a clear distinction between Georgetown and everyone else)

RickyDnwhyc
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Re: T30 Regional BigLaw

Postby RickyDnwhyc » Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:42 pm

From what I hear that's probably because the DC market is an impenetrable fortress. Then again ITT it became pretty clear that I have no idea how(if) region plays a part in those statistics at all.

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dingbat
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Re: T30 Regional BigLaw

Postby dingbat » Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:47 pm

RickyDnwhyc wrote:From what I hear that's probably because the DC market is an impenetrable fortress. Then again ITT it became pretty clear that I have no idea how(if) region plays a part in those statistics at all.

the reason is less important than the results. If you're biglaw or bust, georgetown's placement isn't good enough

RickyDnwhyc
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Re: T30 Regional BigLaw

Postby RickyDnwhyc » Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:04 pm

dingbat wrote:
RickyDnwhyc wrote:From what I hear that's probably because the DC market is an impenetrable fortress. Then again ITT it became pretty clear that I have no idea how(if) region plays a part in those statistics at all.

the reason is less important than the results. If you're biglaw or bust, georgetown's placement isn't good enough


I personally don't feel a hell of a lot more comfortable with a 50% chance than a 45%...

If one was comparing G-Town to a lower T13, soft factors such as liking the campus/location(etc, apparently DC sucks) and what not could probably sway you in either direction.

Informative
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Re: T30 Regional BigLaw

Postby Informative » Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:04 pm

Look at the schools that rank in the Top 25 for biglaw placement and those that rank in the 15-30 range in US News and you have your answer. Also note, Texas doesn't place much better than other regional schools in major markets.

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... slreturn=1

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dingbat
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Re: T30 Regional BigLaw

Postby dingbat » Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:21 pm

Informative wrote:Look at the schools that rank in the Top 25 13 for biglaw placement and those that rank in the 15 14-30 range in US News and you have your answer. Also note, Texas doesn't place much better than other regional schools in major markets.

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... slreturn=1

Note Yale's poor showing; Michigan is known to have had a down year, but G-Town is always in relatively the same place.

Also note how there's a clear distinction between UCLA/USC/UT/BC/BU/Fordham/GW/Vandy and everyone else.

As someone said somewhere else, there are tiers in biglaw hiring that don't match the US News rankings. If you're biglaw or bust, it's wise to find out what those tiers are. If you don't care about biglaw, look for the unemployed/underemployed information on LSN

Informative
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Re: T30 Regional BigLaw

Postby Informative » Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:38 pm

dingbat wrote:
Informative wrote:Look at the schools that rank in the Top 25 13 for biglaw placement and those that rank in the 15 14-30 range in US News and you have your answer. Also note, Texas doesn't place much better than other regional schools in major markets.

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... slreturn=1

Note Yale's poor showing; Michigan is known to have had a down year, but G-Town is always in relatively the same place.

Also note how there's a clear distinction between UCLA/USC/UT/BC/BU/Fordham/GW/Vandy and everyone else.

As someone said somewhere else, there are tiers in biglaw hiring that don't match the US News rankings. If you're biglaw or bust, it's wise to find out what those tiers are. If you don't care about biglaw, look for the unemployed/underemployed information on LSN



Rather than tell someone to figure them out, you could just write them out. I agree with your statement though. Here are the tiers I see based on the data, although where to draw the cutoff line is up to you, and note that there is some overlap:


Tier 1:
T-14 (with tiers within this tier, but we're focusing outside of the T-14)

Tier 2:
BC
BU
Fordham
GW
UT
USC
UCLA
Vanderbilt

Tier 3:
Cardozo
Emory
Minn
Notre Dame
Wash Lee
WUSTL

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dingbat
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Re: T30 Regional BigLaw

Postby dingbat » Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:19 pm

^ I'd break tier 2 into two categories:

Tier 1: T14 (with subdivisions) (top half is good enough for an interview)
Tier 2: USC/UCLA/UT/Vandy (top half has an upward struggle, but can be done)
Tier 3: BC/BU/GW/Fordham (need to be top 1/3 to have a chance)
Tier 4: Notre Dame/WUSTL/W&L/Emory/Cardozo/Washington/Minnesota/Illinois (need to be top 1/4 to have a chance)
Tier 5: Everyone else (don't go here for biglaw)

splittinghairs
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Re: T30 Regional BigLaw

Postby splittinghairs » Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:05 am

Tier 1: T14 (with subdivisions) (top half is good enough for an interview)
Tier 2: USC/UCLA/UT/Vandy (top half has an upward struggle, but can be done) check out OCIs at these schools for the current 2Ls, its more like 1/3 to have a shot and even top 1/4 is not guaranteed at all
Tier 3: BC/BU/GW/Fordham (need to be top 1/3 to have a chance) BC/BU is much closer to Tier 2 than being lumped with GW/Fordham
Tier 4: Notre Dame/WUSTL/W&L/Emory/Cardozo/Washington/Minnesota/Illinois (need to be top 1/4 to have a chance) move GW and Fordham down here, maybe Fordham can be considered a slight slight edge in this group.
Tier 5: Everyone else (greatly varies from school to school, but essentially correct not to expect biglaw)

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JusticeHarlan
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Re: T30 Regional BigLaw

Postby JusticeHarlan » Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:53 am

Informative wrote:Rather than tell someone to figure them out, you could just write them out. I agree with your statement though. Here are the tiers I see based on the data, although where to draw the cutoff line is up to you, and note that there is some overlap

Hey Informative, since you bumped this thread, can you clarify if you're giving these conclusions as a law student or as a lawyer?

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dingbat
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Re: T30 Regional BigLaw

Postby dingbat » Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:00 am

splittinghairs wrote:Tier 1: T14 (with subdivisions) (top half is good enough for an interview)
Tier 2: USC/UCLA/UT/Vandy (top half has an upward struggle, but can be done) check out OCIs at these schools for the current 2Ls, its more like 1/3 to have a shot and even top 1/4 is not guaranteed at all
Tier 3: BC/BU/GW/Fordham (need to be top 1/3 to have a chance) BC/BU is much closer to Tier 2 than being lumped with GW/Fordham
Tier 4: Notre Dame/WUSTL/W&L/Emory/Cardozo/Washington/Minnesota/Illinois (need to be top 1/4 to have a chance) move GW and Fordham down here, maybe Fordham can be considered a slight slight edge in this group.
Tier 5: Everyone else (greatly varies from school to school, but essentially correct not to expect biglaw)


Dividing like this holds true year over year; BU did relatively better this year, GW relatively worse (although I agree that GW tends to lag in that group). another thing to remember is that there are no guarantees, but if 25% get biglaw, then in all likelihood top 1/3 can get an interview, because not everyone who gets an interview gets an offer. At USC/UCLA/Vandy/UT, close to 30% get biglaw, which means the cutoffs for interviews will be lower than that. Sure, top 1/4 has a much better chance than top 1/2, but with smart bidding and good interview strategy, it can be done.

Of course, this kind of conjecture doesn't necessarily translate into jobs....

fogcue2
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Re: T30 Regional BigLaw

Postby fogcue2 » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:04 am

Only adjustments I would make would be to account for A3 clerkship placement
-the only small changes this might make would be to move ND up a tier (conservative judges seem to love the catholic folk), solidifies Washington within their tier and maybe gets Georgia into the bottom group (seem to do well with A3 placement within their own region).

For people who don't know, the reason to include A3 clerkships (and not others) is that these clerks typically have a shot at biglaw after the clerkship and many students who take these were SA as 2L's.

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dingbat
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Re: T30 Regional BigLaw

Postby dingbat » Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:25 pm

fogcue2 wrote:Only adjustments I would make would be to account for A3 clerkship placement
-the only small changes this might make would be to move ND up a tier (conservative judges seem to love the catholic folk), solidifies Washington within their tier and maybe gets Georgia into the bottom group (seem to do well with A3 placement within their own region).

For people who don't know, the reason to include A3 clerkships (and not others) is that these clerks typically have a shot at biglaw after the clerkship and many students who take these were SA as 2L's.

I would agree, but I suspect that it doesn't hold as true as one might think for the following reason:
A3 clerkships in less competitive circuits are presumably easier to get from schools in those districts. For example, the 11th circuit is more likely to take on clerks from Alabama, Florida and particularly Georgia (where the court sits).

So while as a general rule I think one should include A3 clerkships (I usually do), some care must be taken as it's not so cut and dry.
(however, while it might be that not all these clerks could have gotten biglaw straight out of school, a clerk should be able to get biglaw thereafter)

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Nova
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Re: T30 Regional BigLaw

Postby Nova » Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:41 pm

Informative wrote:Look at the schools that rank in the Top 25 for biglaw placement and those that rank in the 15-30 range in US News and you have your answer. Also note, Texas doesn't place much better than other regional schools in major markets.

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... slreturn=1


Keep in mind there are several firms paying market salary NOT in the NLJ 250.

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dingbat
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Re: T30 Regional BigLaw

Postby dingbat » Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:43 pm

Nova wrote:
Informative wrote:Look at the schools that rank in the Top 25 for biglaw placement and those that rank in the 15-30 range in US News and you have your answer. Also note, Texas doesn't place much better than other regional schools in major markets.

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... slreturn=1


Keep in mind there are several firms paying market salary NOT in the NLJ 250.

As well as several firms that are in the NLJ250 but not paying market salary.

It's a good proxy, but like every other stat out there, only tells part of the story.

mehereuthere101787
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Re: T30 Regional BigLaw

Postby mehereuthere101787 » Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:59 pm

.
Last edited by mehereuthere101787 on Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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AlanShore
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Re: T30 Regional BigLaw

Postby AlanShore » Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:45 am

since when did cardozo rise up to be tier 3? it places significantly better than brooklyn?

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dingbat
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Re: T30 Regional BigLaw

Postby dingbat » Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:31 pm

AlanShore wrote:since when did cardozo rise up to be tier 3? it places significantly better than brooklyn?

Cardozo and Brooklyn are equivalent, but ITE Dozo seems to be pulling away (or, should we say, their placement didn't drop as badly?). Additionally, it seems they've been more aggressive with their scholarships, so recently Dozo seems the better option of the two
I wouldn't go to either on a free ride, but it's not necessarily a dumb move




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