T30 Regional BigLaw

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RickyDnwhyc
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T30 Regional BigLaw

Postby RickyDnwhyc » Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:06 pm

Assuming one is "BigLaw or bust" are there any T1 schools outside of the T14+UT with strong(or less than abysmal) BigLaw placement in their home/nearby markets?

Based on my numbers I'd rather shoot for $$ at one of these schools (if they exist) instead of six figure debt at a T14... Then again I would prefer to avoid Alaska BigLaw.

rad lulz
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Re: T30 Regional BigLaw

Postby rad lulz » Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:10 pm

Rancid UT trolling.

otnemem
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Re: T30 Regional BigLaw

Postby otnemem » Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:18 pm

--LinkRemoved--

Sort by large firm score.

RickyDnwhyc
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Re: T30 Regional BigLaw

Postby RickyDnwhyc » Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:27 pm

otnemem wrote:http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/clearinghouse/?show=compare&sub=jobs

Sort by large firm score.


Thanks. Useful link, but wouldn't some of those percentages be higher if you ONLY considered the regional market?

rad lulz
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Re: T30 Regional BigLaw

Postby rad lulz » Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:32 pm

RickyDnwhyc wrote:
otnemem wrote:http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/clearinghouse/?show=compare&sub=jobs

Sort by large firm score.


Thanks. Useful link, but wouldn't some of those percentages be higher if you ONLY considered the regional market?

What? Why?

RickyDnwhyc
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Re: T30 Regional BigLaw

Postby RickyDnwhyc » Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:47 pm

rad lulz wrote:
RickyDnwhyc wrote:
otnemem wrote:http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/clearinghouse/?show=compare&sub=jobs

Sort by large firm score.


Thanks. Useful link, but wouldn't some of those percentages be higher if you ONLY considered the regional market?

What? Why?


I thought UTexas placed very well in Texas BigLaw, 23% seems low... Especially when something like half their student body stays in Texas.

& Let me rephrase. I know I'm grasping at straws but couldn't these numbers be lower because of students self selecting more competitive markets? Is LST considered the most dependable/accurate resource?

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bk1
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Re: T30 Regional BigLaw

Postby bk1 » Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:16 pm

RickyDnwhyc wrote:I know I'm grasping at straws but couldn't these numbers be lower because of students self selecting more competitive markets? Is LST considered the most dependable/accurate resource?


Generally, regional markets are harder to get than NYC so non-T14 kids tend to be "self-selecting" towards more competitive markets. Self-selection is in quotes because non-T14s tend not to have much of a choice but to target their respective target regional markets because that's where most of their alums are and NYC firms tend not to do OCI (and mass mailing, while important and worthwhile, has a low conversion rate).

RickyDnwhyc
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Re: T30 Regional BigLaw

Postby RickyDnwhyc » Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:58 pm

Generally, regional markets are far easier to get than NYC so non-T14 kids tend to be "self-selecting" towards more competitive markets

I'm a bit confused, did you mean Less competitive?

The point I'm trying to make is I can't trust LSN because if all Texas Grads stayed in Texas and opted for Texas BigLaw the BigLaw % would obviously be higher than 23%. It seems like these two layers of self selection could potentially distort the numbers significantly.

Also, I thought above median at UT had a good shot(obviously not guaranteed) at Texas BigLaw? If that's the case than the 23% figure on LSN is very deceptive for someone who is "BigLaw or bust" regardless of region.

TheZoid
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Re: T30 Regional BigLaw

Postby TheZoid » Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:07 pm

I think the answer you're looking for is no, no it wouldn't make a huge difference if non nlj250 firms were included in the big firm placement number because they take far fewer associates. A NY firm might take 75 SAs, where a smaller market might take ~4. These are really rough numbers, but you get the idea. Also, the better the school, the more likely it is that kids are getting non-nlj250 firms. So I wouldn't count on that being a big factor, especially outside
The t14.

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bk1
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Re: T30 Regional BigLaw

Postby bk1 » Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:13 pm

RickyDnwhyc wrote:Generally, regional markets are far easier to get than NYC so non-T14 kids tend to be "self-selecting" towards more competitive markets

I'm a bit confused, did you mean Less competitive?

The point I'm trying to make is I can't trust LSN because if all Texas Grads stayed in Texas and opted for Texas BigLaw the BigLaw % would obviously be higher than 23%. It seems like these two layers of self selection could potentially distort the numbers significantly.

Also, I thought above median at UT had a good shot(obviously not guaranteed) at Texas BigLaw? If that's the case than the 23% figure on LSN is very deceptive for someone who is "BigLaw or bust" regardless of region.


I typoed. I meant that regional markets are harder than NYC.

Things are brutal. Above median doesn't really have a "good shot" (depending how you define good).

RickyDnwhyc
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Re: T30 Regional BigLaw

Postby RickyDnwhyc » Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:16 pm

TheZoid wrote:I think the answer you're looking for is no, no it wouldn't make a huge difference if non nlj250 firms were included in the big firm placement number because they take far fewer associates. A NY firm might take 75 SAs, where a smaller market might take ~4. These are really rough numbers, but you get the idea. Also, the better the school, the more likely it is that kids are getting non-nlj250 firms. So I wouldn't count on that being a big factor, especially outside
The t14.


Why would we disclude NLJ250? Are you saying that none of those firms have a regional preference?

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thelawyler
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Re: T30 Regional BigLaw

Postby thelawyler » Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:26 pm

RickyDnwhyc wrote:Generally, regional markets are far easier to get than NYC so non-T14 kids tend to be "self-selecting" towards more competitive markets

I'm a bit confused, did you mean Less competitive?

The point I'm trying to make is I can't trust LSN because if all Texas Grads stayed in Texas and opted for Texas BigLaw the BigLaw % would obviously be higher than 23%. It seems like these two layers of self selection could potentially distort the numbers significantly.

Also, I thought above median at UT had a good shot(obviously not guaranteed) at Texas BigLaw? If that's the case than the 23% figure on LSN is very deceptive for someone who is "BigLaw or bust" regardless of region.


I'm not sure if you're trolling, but no, it's the best proxy for big law or bust. And yes, 23% sounds about right for that year at UT.

TheZoid
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Re: T30 Regional BigLaw

Postby TheZoid » Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:27 pm

I'm not suggesting you don't include nlj250. What I'm saying is, you know the nlj250 numbers, because those are published. It sounded like you were trying to figure out how many people are getting big firms in addition to those numbers. I'm saying it's not a big number, and the less elite the school you go to the less chance that it is a significant number. In short, don't bank on a large number of people getting big firm jobs outside of what you know are getting them from the nlj250 numbers.

de5igual
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Re: T30 Regional BigLaw

Postby de5igual » Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:32 pm

RickyDnwhyc wrote:
TheZoid wrote:I think the answer you're looking for is no, no it wouldn't make a huge difference if non nlj250 firms were included in the big firm placement number because they take far fewer associates. A NY firm might take 75 SAs, where a smaller market might take ~4. These are really rough numbers, but you get the idea. Also, the better the school, the more likely it is that kids are getting non-nlj250 firms. So I wouldn't count on that being a big factor, especially outside
The t14.


Why would we disclude NLJ250? Are you saying that none of those firms have a regional preference?


no one's excluding anything. the LST numbers reflect all firms with 100+ (or is it 50+?) attorneys, which would include all NLJ250 firms and then some. while there are some market paying boutiques excluded, there are so few of these that it won't matter significantly. yes, 23% is a tiny number. welcome to ITE.

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stillwater
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Re: T30 Regional BigLaw

Postby stillwater » Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:32 pm

Seton Hall FTW

rad lulz
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Re: T30 Regional BigLaw

Postby rad lulz » Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:34 pm

TheZoid wrote:I think the answer you're looking for is no, no it wouldn't make a huge difference if non nlj250 firms were included in the big firm placement number because they take far fewer associates. A NY firm might take 75 SAs, where a smaller market might take ~4. These are really rough numbers, but you get the idea. Also, the better the school, the more likely it is that kids are getting non-nlj250 firms. So I wouldn't count on that being a big factor, especially outside
The t14.

Those LST charts are % in firms of 100+, not NLJ250.

scooped

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ndirish2010
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Re: T30 Regional BigLaw

Postby ndirish2010 » Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:43 pm

If you want biglaw, go to a T14. This coming from someone who does not go to a T14.

RickyDnwhyc
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Re: T30 Regional BigLaw

Postby RickyDnwhyc » Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:03 pm

TheZoid wrote:I'm not suggesting you don't include nlj250. What I'm saying is, you know the nlj250 numbers, because those are published. It sounded like you were trying to figure out how many people are getting big firms in addition to those numbers. I'm saying it's not a big number, and the less elite the school you go to the less chance that it is a significant number. In short, don't bank on a large number of people getting big firm jobs outside of what you know are getting them from the nlj250 numbers.


Okay, I see what you guys are saying. No, that's not exactly what I'm trying to figure out. I'm trying to figure out how many people COULD have gotten REGIONAL BigFirm jobs.

I'm sure there are statistics out there that account for how many UT Grads got BigLaw in Texas(specifically), but this doesn't account for the grads who could have gotten it but chose to work in a different region, and for grads that could have gotten it but chose to work in PI/Govt/Etc.

Example: According to that LSN link, only 69.9% of UT grads got legal jobs, now, assuming that 100% of people who go to UT want a legal job(although this may not be true), and taking the 23% Big Firm number, that means only about 16% of UT grads are working at BigLaw firms. About 1/3 of those are probably employed out of state since most(I've heard 2/3) people go to UT to work in Texas. So that year, UT placed around 10% of it's class in BigLaw in Texas. My problem is, I do NOT believe this implies that UT grads only have a 10% shot at TEXAS BigLaw.

This is the most math I've done since freshman UG calculus. I can't be wrong.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: T30 Regional BigLaw

Postby Tiago Splitter » Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:08 pm

Now you're just making yourself crazy. You don't apply the 69% getting a legal job to the 23% who worked in big firms and assume that only 16% of the class got BigLaw. The 23% working in big firms are included in the 69% who obtained a legal job. It's not like 7% of the class works as a BigLaw secretary but gets counted in the NLJ250 figure.

EDIT: Rayiner's thread has UT with 24% BigLaw.
Last edited by Tiago Splitter on Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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bk1
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Re: T30 Regional BigLaw

Postby bk1 » Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:14 pm

Legal hiring doesn't work like law school admissions. You can't just say that because 15% of people get biglaw that top 15% is necessary. That's not to say that grades aren't important, they are, but rather it's more of a sliding scale. E.g. if 50% of the school gets biglaw, it probably looks something like this:

90% of top 0-10%
80% of top 10-20%
70% of top 20-30%
60% of top 30-40%
50% of top 40-50%
etc.

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Pricer
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Re: T30 Regional BigLaw

Postby Pricer » Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:20 pm

Just went through OCI at UT. I know non-minority students at median that hustled and got biglaw jobs. Some of the Texas biglaw firms will interview and hire from the top 50%. I also saw people in the top quarter not getting offers. So 23% getting biglaw sounds right (maybe higher than that this year since firm hiring has picked up a little bit), but that does not mean only the top 23% get biglaw. Also, as mentioned, there are students who turn down biglaw in order to pursue government and PI work.

RickyDnwhyc
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Re: T30 Regional BigLaw

Postby RickyDnwhyc » Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:45 pm

bk1 wrote:Legal hiring doesn't work like law school admissions. You can't just say that because 15% of people get biglaw that top 15% is necessary. That's not to say that grades aren't important, they are, but rather it's more of a sliding scale. E.g. if 25% of the school gets biglaw, it probably looks something like this:

45% of top 0-10%
40% of top 10-20%
35% of top 20-30%
30% of top 30-40%
25% of top 40-50%
etc.


I like it. At least now I have a rule of thumb to go by. Sorry for the confusion. I appreciate all your input.

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bk1
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Re: T30 Regional BigLaw

Postby bk1 » Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:25 pm

RickyDnwhyc wrote:I like it. At least now I have a rule of thumb to go by. Sorry for the confusion. I appreciate all your input.


It's not a rule of thumb, more of an explanation of reality. It's not something you can count on either way.

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dingbat
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Re: T30 Regional BigLaw

Postby dingbat » Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:19 pm

RickyDnwhyc wrote:Assuming one is "BigLaw or bust" are there any T1 schools outside of the T14+UT with strong(or less than abysmal) BigLaw placement in their home/nearby markets?

Based on my numbers I'd rather shoot for $$ at one of these schools (if they exist) instead of six figure debt at a T14... Then again I would prefer to avoid Alaska BigLaw.

To answer the question asked, if you're biglaw or bust, you should really stick to the T14. However, the following schools will give you a decent chance (but not a good chance), in the regional biglaw market:

Tier 1:
Vanderbilt
UT
USC
UCLA

Tier 2:
BU
BC
GW
Fordham

Tier 3:
Emory
WUSTL
Notre Dame

detailed statistics here

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rayiner
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Re: T30 Regional BigLaw

Postby rayiner » Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:16 pm

I think your argument is that more people from regional schools would get local big law if they didn't gun for big national firms, is that correct? I think the fact that's undermining that possibility is that there just aren't very many jobs in the smaller regions that don't have a T14+UT/Vandy/UCLA/USC school.

It's been a while since NALP has published a freely-available list of hiring at all NALP firms, but taking a look at this list from 2003 is illustrative: http://www.nalp.org/2004aprpatterespractices. Out of the 7,700 entry level associate positions in 2002, the vast majority, about 85-90% in my estimation, were in regions dominated by a T18 school. The places that aren't, like Miami, Denver, Seattle, etc, have 50-80 jobs apiece, not nearly enough for the hundreds of students at their regional schools.

Note also that the data above is in the middle of the last recession. Hiring during the last boom peaked at 8,250 during 2001 and dropped to an expected 6,800 in 2004: http://www.nalp.org/2005entry-levelhiring. Note that this is for all 600 NALP firms, not just what you might consider national or regional big law.




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