Is there absolutely no possible reason to pick H over Y?

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Doorkeeper
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Re: Is there absolutely no possible reason to pick H over Y?

Postby Doorkeeper » Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:49 pm

1. JD/MBA, or a general interest in entering the business or PE world
2. If you prefer a livable urban city.
3. H throws much more financial aid your way.
4. Personal reasons.
5. If you have a pre-existing academic relationship with H professors (more applicable to JD/PhD people)
6. If you generally plan on not staying in the legal field post-graduation (H > Y for lay name recognition)

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acrossthelake
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Re: Is there absolutely no possible reason to pick H over Y?

Postby acrossthelake » Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:18 pm

englawyer wrote:another reason: if you have ever had a desire to live in the work of this esteemed architect: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Gropius. once in a lifetime opportunity!


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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sutochan
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Re: Is there absolutely no possible reason to pick H over Y?

Postby sutochan » Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:39 pm

Of course there are other great reasons to choose H over Y:

Harvard has a ton of money. They throw money at students. Food, alcohol, events, swag--everything. I went abroad every year I was at HLS (sometimes twice a year) on Harvard's dime. Also, there were two years where I paid 10K or less in tuition because HLS's grant aid is so damn generous.

Harvard is huge, so there are potentially more people who share your interests: more flag football and basketball, more journals and more clubs, more lectures and more events. There are more classes, more clinicals, and more professors. Also, you can take classes anywhere at Harvard (and even at other schools) and get (some) credit toward the J.D. Look, the small size of YLS and SLS may have its advantages, but the primary advantage is that you feel special for having been admitted. For an educational institution, having more high-quality opportunities and options is always better.

The lower emphasis on grades at YLS is not all it is cracked up to be. Word from many friends is that less opportunity to distinguish oneself in the classroom leads to a cut-throat culture of sucking up to professors.

And don't kid yourself--the opportunities coming out of these schools is essentially the same. If you are worried you aren't really smarter/a better student than the top 25% of Harvard admits and you are just DYING for that circuit court clerkship, go to Yale. Maybe no one will notice that you are dumber/less talented (probably not though). But the whole "more clerkships per capita" thing doesn't have a lot to do with the school, it has to do with the students and a selection bias. Most of the people I spent time with at HLS didn't want or pursue a clerkship... I think if any of us did we would each have landed a nice one.

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Re: Is there absolutely no possible reason to pick H over Y?

Postby Mista Bojangles » Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:18 am

sutochan wrote:Of course there are other great reasons to choose H over Y:

Harvard has a ton of money. They throw money at students. Food, alcohol, events, swag--everything. I went abroad every year I was at HLS (sometimes twice a year) on Harvard's dime. Also, there were two years where I paid 10K or less in tuition because HLS's grant aid is so damn generous.



not sure why everyone keeps saying this. certainly wasn't my experience, at least not so far. i definitely feel i got the shaft from HLS in terms of grant money. granted, i didn't have any other HYS options to compare to, but i'll likely be graduating with a shitton of debt.

i agree with everything else - but granted, i'm just a 1L who should be working on my memo

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Re: Is there absolutely no possible reason to pick H over Y?

Postby Ti Malice » Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:30 am

Doorkeeper wrote:3. H throws much more financial aid your way.


Pretty sure Yale's average scholarship grant is larger. It certainly was for me. (Stanford beat them both by quite a bit.)

sutochan wrote:Harvard has a ton of money. They throw money at students. Food, alcohol, events, swag--everything. I went abroad every year I was at HLS (sometimes twice a year) on Harvard's dime. Also, there were two years where I paid 10K or less in tuition because HLS's grant aid is so damn generous.


Everything you said there applies to Yale as well. Both schools are rich and generous.

Also, you can take classes anywhere at Harvard (and even at other schools) and get (some) credit toward the J.D.


No different from YLS.

For an educational institution, having more high-quality opportunities and options is always better.


I would agree in the abstract, but I don't see a great practical advantage in this specific case. There are already dozens more deeply appealing classes/seminars and clinics than I'll ever be able to enjoy here. The admittedly anecdotal evidence I've gathered also supports the claim that it's a bit easier at YLS to get into the most sought-after classes and clinics than at HLS, and also that it's a bit easier to do meaningful one-on-one work with professors at YLS (if that's your bag).

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Borhas
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Re: Is there absolutely no possible reason to pick H over Y?

Postby Borhas » Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:23 am

jcccc wrote:
dissonance1848 wrote:If you want to go into politics, or some elite corporate stuff, yeah, HLS will serve your purposes better than Yale. That being said, Yale/Stanford would be better for the typical attendee.

If you are not sure about your future ambitions, the risk of getting curve pwned outweighs being governor of some state, or doing MBB.

Take Y/S over H. Just do it.


How exactly will HLS give me the edge if I wanted to pursue a career in politics and "elite corporate stuff"?


larger class size, more opportunities to be a social climbing parasite

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sutochan
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Re: Is there absolutely no possible reason to pick H over Y?

Postby sutochan » Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:11 am

Ti Malice wrote:
sutochan wrote:Harvard has a ton of money. They throw money at students. Food, alcohol, events, swag--everything. I went abroad every year I was at HLS (sometimes twice a year) on Harvard's dime. Also, there were two years where I paid 10K or less in tuition because HLS's grant aid is so damn generous.


Everything you said there applies to Yale as well. Both schools are rich and generous.


The endowment of HLS is almost twice as large as that of YLS. (To address the obvious counterpoint, measuring the endowment on a student per capita basis doesn't make much sense, IMO, because beyond certain thresholds the marginal cost of including additional students is quite low). I don't know that there is any meaningful way to measure the trickle-down and how it compares (and maybe it is equivalent), but the facilities at HLS are (now) much nicer than at YLS, the campus is more expansive, and there is generally a ton of money floating around. Oh and I just checked: my tuition bill for 3L year was $4,330.

Ti Malice wrote:
Also, you can take classes anywhere at Harvard (and even at other schools) and get (some) credit toward the J.D.


No different from YLS.


I disagree. You can take classes anywhere at HARVARD, which is a larger university with superior professional/graduate school offerings. And you can get credit for classes at MIT. And at the Fletcher School. I have even heard of people taking classes at Brown. So I think there is a significant difference here.

Ti Malice wrote:
For an educational institution, having more high-quality opportunities and options is always better.


I would agree in the abstract, but I don't see a great practical advantage in this specific case. There are already dozens more deeply appealing classes/seminars and clinics than I'll ever be able to enjoy here. The admittedly anecdotal evidence I've gathered also supports the claim that it's a bit easier at YLS to get into the most sought-after classes and clinics than at HLS, and also that it's a bit easier to do meaningful one-on-one work with professors at YLS (if that's your bag).


This is probably your weakest point. There are more classes and clinics than you'll be able to enjoy, perhaps, but other students with different interests will probably have a different experience. HLS simply has more courses on a wider variety of topics, and you can go into greater depth in a greater number of fields.

And your anecdotal evidence about sought-after classes and one-on-one work with professors is sheer speculation. At HLS, you are pretty much guaranteed your first or second choice of classes each semester. Did I take a class offered by every famous professor? No, but I took a class from seven or eight of them.

Also, who knows what professor accessibility is really like--I call BS on your claim that YLS is better in this regard. In fact, it would seem like it would be harder at YLS, since connections with professors make the world go round in the long run when you don't have a way to meaningfully distinguish yourself in the classroom. A lot of students (well over half?) at HLS don't pursue one-on-one work with professors--no need if you aren't trying to be an academic. But I can't think of anyone who wanted to do work with the faculty who didn't get to do just that. I am on a 'first-name, stop by to chat, review my academic work' relationship with several HLS professors, and it took little effort on my part beyond sharing an interest and taking classes in their field.

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dingbat
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Re: Is there absolutely no possible reason to pick H over Y?

Postby dingbat » Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:21 am

Doesn't Yale have the greatest LRAP on the planet?

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Re: Is there absolutely no possible reason to pick H over Y?

Postby Nicholasnickynic » Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:48 am

If you want to work outside of law (See: Barrack Obama), Harvard has a lot more lay prestige.

But if you want to work outside of law, then don't go to fucking law school, brosef.

Yale is smaller and more elite. IF you go to yale you are a fucking special snowflake, brah. If you go to Harvard, you are what, 1 of 1000?

Don't get me wrong, harvard is the tits- but yale is motherfucking YALE. Bro.

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sutochan
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Re: Is there absolutely no possible reason to pick H over Y?

Postby sutochan » Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:42 am

Nicholasnickynic wrote: IF you go to yale you are a fucking special snowflake, brah.


This is probably the main reason why people choose YLS over HLS. And if you really need to feel special, go for it. The other main reason is risk aversion--the outcomes in terms of clerking and academics are better on a per capita basis. No guarantees of course, but if you are really that worried that you don't have what it takes to do these things at HLS if you wanted to, go to YLS.

In the world of lawyers and academics, there is no meaningful difference in prestige between a Yale JD and a Harvard JD. The distinction is really only apparent to 0Ls, and it has everything to do with feeling special for being admitted to a more selective school.

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IAFG
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Re: Is there absolutely no possible reason to pick H over Y?

Postby IAFG » Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:49 am

sutochan wrote:
Nicholasnickynic wrote: IF you go to yale you are a fucking special snowflake, brah.


This is probably the main reason why people choose YLS over HLS. And if you really need to feel special, go for it. The other main reason is risk aversion--the outcomes in terms of clerking and academics are better on a per capita basis. No guarantees of course, but if you are really that worried that you don't have what it takes to do these things at HLS if you wanted to, go to YLS.

In the world of lawyers and academics, there is no meaningful difference in prestige between a Yale JD and a Harvard JD. The distinction is really only apparent to 0Ls, and it has everything to do with feeling special for being admitted to a more selective school.

How can you admit Yalies have better outcomes, but in the same post go on to say there is no real distinction?

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sutochan
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Re: Is there absolutely no possible reason to pick H over Y?

Postby sutochan » Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:43 pm

IAFG wrote:
sutochan wrote:
Nicholasnickynic wrote: IF you go to yale you are a fucking special snowflake, brah.


This is probably the main reason why people choose YLS over HLS. And if you really need to feel special, go for it. The other main reason is risk aversion--the outcomes in terms of clerking and academics are better on a per capita basis. No guarantees of course, but if you are really that worried that you don't have what it takes to do these things at HLS if you wanted to, go to YLS.

In the world of lawyers and academics, there is no meaningful difference in prestige between a Yale JD and a Harvard JD. The distinction is really only apparent to 0Ls, and it has everything to do with feeling special for being admitted to a more selective school.

How can you admit Yalies have better outcomes, but in the same post go on to say there is no real distinction?


I think it all comes down to... reading comprehension. "Better outcomes in terms of clerking and academics" (maybe I should have said academia, but I thought the term "outcomes" made that clear) does not mean better outcomes across the board. There is no need to have such a myopic obsession with either of these things; people who are going to do corporate law or who won't practice law at all may not be interested in clerking, period. People who are not intending to do appellate law may not be interested in clerking at either appellate level. People who aren't interested in academia shouldn't care about placement rates in academia.

But to be blunt, the "per capita basis" is the kicker: you see, the Harvard class exceeds the entire Yale class in terms of these types of outcomes, and it also has many other sorts of outcomes. So if you are interested in anything but academia or hoping to hedge against the chance you won't get the next gold star in life, your coveted circuit court clerkship, you should go to HLS. If you are interested in academia or the circuit court clerkship, go to either... but Harvard has the edge in many other metrics that I believe matter. Maybe Yale will make you feel safer, but I don't know anyone who actually wanted a clerkship who didn't get one. Maybe it wasn't the DC Circuit, but it's not like Yale guarantees you more success in landing something prestigious.

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Re: Is there absolutely no possible reason to pick H over Y?

Postby Elston Gunn » Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:46 pm

sutochan wrote:Of course there are other great reasons to choose H over Y:

Harvard has a ton of money. They throw money at students. Food, alcohol, events, swag--everything. I went abroad every year I was at HLS (sometimes twice a year) on Harvard's dime. Also, there were two years where I paid 10K or less in tuition because HLS's grant aid is so damn generous.

Harvard is huge, so there are potentially more people who share your interests: more flag football and basketball, more journals and more clubs, more lectures and more events. There are more classes, more clinicals, and more professors. Also, you can take classes anywhere at Harvard (and even at other schools) and get (some) credit toward the J.D. Look, the small size of YLS and SLS may have its advantages, but the primary advantage is that you feel special for having been admitted. For an educational institution, having more high-quality opportunities and options is always better.

The lower emphasis on grades at YLS is not all it is cracked up to be. Word from many friends is that less opportunity to distinguish oneself in the classroom leads to a cut-throat culture of sucking up to professors.

And don't kid yourself--the opportunities coming out of these schools is essentially the same. If you are worried you aren't really smarter/a better student than the top 25% of Harvard admits and you are just DYING for that circuit court clerkship, go to Yale. Maybe no one will notice that you are dumber/less talented (probably not though). But the whole "more clerkships per capita" thing doesn't have a lot to do with the school, it has to do with the students and a selection bias. Most of the people I spent time with at HLS didn't want or pursue a clerkship... I think if any of us did we would each have landed a nice one.



lolwut?

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Re: Is there absolutely no possible reason to pick H over Y?

Postby Nicholasnickynic » Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:03 am

flem wrote:I fucking hate this thread.


:lol:

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Re: Is there absolutely no possible reason to pick H over Y?

Postby justinp » Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:07 am

so this whole "yale rules" "no dude HARVARD rules" argument is idiotic, in the sense that you'll have great opportunities from either place and there are loads of good reasons to choose either. i don't think the 'go to yale' consensus is wrong for the majority of applicants, but i think it is overstated and overapplied when you have random posters acting like anyone who chooses harvard over yale is an idiot.

i just wanted to point out an aspect of the 'harvard alumni network is valuable' argument that doesn't really get a lot of play in this kind of conversation but i think is actually the single most important factor in that analysis (for the majority of people who aren't going to be hedge fund managers or whatever else). which is that the HLS network is specifically (perhaps uniquely?) valuable to people who want to work outside of the NY/DC/Chi/LA markets. pretty much any reasonably sized city is going to have a couple of HLS alumni at the top firms; very few of these have any YLS alumni just due to the fact that there are far fewer YLS alumni and those that exist tend to cluster in NY/DC to a somewhat larger extent (to which yale partisans reply THATS BECAUSE YALIES GET PREFTIGIOUS GUBMINT JOBS BRO, which... sure (maybe?) but that's not a universal goal). this is pretty important if you want to get back to your home city, or are planning to follow an SO to a smaller city, or whatever other secondary market preference you have for whatever reason.

of course an impressive yale grad has a good chance of getting a job in a smaller market, so this isn't determinative, but the equally qualified harvard grad is *probably* going to have an easier time due to the alumni connection (both at the OCI stage and the lateral hiring stage). far fewer firms come to yale's FIW than harvard's EIP, which doesn't make a huge difference on a per capita basis but does make a reasonably big difference in terms of geographic distribution. yale students who are dead set on going home to portland or cincinnati or whatever (i didn't look to see if there are portland or cinci firms at yale OCI, but you get the point) can apply via mailings and stand a perfectly good chance of getting hired, but the skids are less greasy. the harvard student can likely get an OCI spot with the top firm or two in whatever market they want to go to, and if they start in NY and decide they miss knoxville, there are already people there who will almost definitely take their calls.

all of this is obviously pretty marginal, but it's real, and is something that someone in the totally excellent position of choosing between the two should think about if they are dead-set on a certain market outside of the big hubs of the legal services industry.

tl;dr: go wherever you want, it doesn't matter that much, but if you want to work in a smaller market think about the relative presence of alumni of the two schools in that market.

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Re: Is there absolutely no possible reason to pick H over Y?

Postby iMisto » Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:59 pm

I can't imagine a H grad working in a secondary market NOT getting back to somebody who applied with YALE on their resume, and instead, taking somebody from the regional school. ??

I'm pretty sure if you're coming from Y/H, it doesn't matter what your network looks like... A Harvard grad working at a firm is probably going to be interested in anybody coming out of Yale, and vice versa.

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Re: Is there absolutely no possible reason to pick H over Y?

Postby justinp » Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:33 pm

iMisto wrote:I can't imagine a H grad working in a secondary market NOT getting back to somebody who applied with YALE on their resume, and instead, taking somebody from the regional school. ??

I'm pretty sure if you're coming from Y/H, it doesn't matter what your network looks like... A Harvard grad working at a firm is probably going to be interested in anybody coming out of Yale, and vice versa.


k bro.

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iMisto
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Re: Is there absolutely no possible reason to pick H over Y?

Postby iMisto » Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:33 pm

justinp wrote:
iMisto wrote:I can't imagine a H grad working in a secondary market NOT getting back to somebody who applied with YALE on their resume, and instead, taking somebody from the regional school. ??

I'm pretty sure if you're coming from Y/H, it doesn't matter what your network looks like... A Harvard grad working at a firm is probably going to be interested in anybody coming out of Yale, and vice versa.


k bro.


-_- why do I even bother posting on these boards?

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Phlash58
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Re: Is there absolutely no possible reason to pick H over Y?

Postby Phlash58 » Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:35 pm

Justin's point is valid. If there are similarly situated candidates (class placement, interview, writing, resume), one from Harvard and one from Yale, then the person from a school that the hiring partner has a connection with will likely get the nod. Since Harvard has so many more alumni it is more likely the hiring partner has that connection to Harvard. Thus Harvard may offer hiring benefits, especially in small markets Yale graduates have passed on in the past.

I am not saying one should pick Y over H or vice versa just that Justin's point make sense.

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Re: Is there absolutely no possible reason to pick H over Y?

Postby sapien » Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:54 pm

threads like this = why i picked stanford.

09042014
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Re: Is there absolutely no possible reason to pick H over Y?

Postby 09042014 » Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:03 pm

Is there any evidence Yale is more than marginally better than Harvard in terms of getting a job?

justinp
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Re: Is there absolutely no possible reason to pick H over Y?

Postby justinp » Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:21 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Is there any evidence Yale is more than marginally better than Harvard in terms of getting a job?


my guess is that there are fewer YLS grads coming out of school unemployed (on a per capita basis). but i'd also guess that it's a smaller difference than this board would have you believe.

sapien wrote:threads like this = why i picked stanford.


legit. hope you are enjoying palo alto-- awesome town. weather ain't bad either :)

iMisto wrote:-_- why do I even bother posting on these boards?


story of my life dude. that was kind of a douchey response on my part, for which i apologize (like actually) but my sense is that no matter where you go your network matters a lot. "elite" law schools are great and all, but nothing makes up for having people in your corner when it comes to hiring.

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Re: Is there absolutely no possible reason to pick H over Y?

Postby 071816 » Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:36 pm

iMisto wrote:
justinp wrote:
iMisto wrote:I can't imagine a H grad working in a secondary market NOT getting back to somebody who applied with YALE on their resume, and instead, taking somebody from the regional school. ??

I'm pretty sure if you're coming from Y/H, it doesn't matter what your network looks like... A Harvard grad working at a firm is probably going to be interested in anybody coming out of Yale, and vice versa.


k bro.


-_- why do I even bother posting on these boards?

You should probably stop.

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Ruxin1
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Re: Is there absolutely no possible reason to pick H over Y?

Postby Ruxin1 » Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:40 pm

chimp wrote:
iMisto wrote:
justinp wrote:
iMisto wrote:I can't imagine a H grad working in a secondary market NOT getting back to somebody who applied with YALE on their resume, and instead, taking somebody from the regional school. ??

I'm pretty sure if you're coming from Y/H, it doesn't matter what your network looks like... A Harvard grad working at a firm is probably going to be interested in anybody coming out of Yale, and vice versa.


k bro.


-_- why do I even bother posting on these boards?

You should probably stop.

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acrossthelake
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Re: Is there absolutely no possible reason to pick H over Y?

Postby acrossthelake » Sun Sep 23, 2012 1:14 pm

The average Harvard (perhaps Yale, but I can't speak for them) law student isn't trying to go to a firm where these alumni connections are giving them a leg up versus Yale students. Also, secondary markets tend to be extremely wary of Harvard students and question why the Harvard student isn't trying to go to a primary market where there are theoretically bigger deals and cases.




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