Campos upcoming book "Don't go to Law School(Unless)"

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kwais
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Re: Campos upcoming book "Don't go to Law School(Unless)"

Postby kwais » Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:00 am

timbs4339 wrote:
kwais wrote:I agree with Campos on most points and think this book can help people, but I think there is an air of elitism. I have met many students, for whom admission and attendance at any law school is a massive source of pride for them and their families. Many of these people do not have good alternatives (IBRetail). Even if they struggle to find shitlaw for years, this may be a step up from A/C repair. Law school can carry great symbolic weight for some people and to tell them that they are idiots destined for apocalyptic poverty just makes you seem out of touch. Ok, sorry for the interruption, back to the circle jerk.


Campos says that there are only certain schools you should attend at sticker price, not that you couldn't attend those schools at a signifcant discount. The sums that some law students are talking about borrowing are vast- over 230k all in. If the advice sounds elitist, it's only becuase the prices charged are currently viable only for members of the upper class. 230k starts to become an iffy proposition evn if you have a 50%+ shot at biglaw.

Advising pople not to borrow 230k to attend a shitty law school just to be a lawyer (which you won't really be without a job) isn't elitist- it's common sense.


now wait a second. If we take Campos at his word here, the advice extends to not attending UCLA with a 100k scholarship, not attending UF for 10k a year, not attending Penn at sticker and so on. Timbs, I agree with the hypo you put forth, but I think Campos' would go further.

timbs4339
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Re: Campos upcoming book "Don't go to Law School(Unless)"

Postby timbs4339 » Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:40 am

kwais wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:
kwais wrote:I agree with Campos on most points and think this book can help people, but I think there is an air of elitism. I have met many students, for whom admission and attendance at any law school is a massive source of pride for them and their families. Many of these people do not have good alternatives (IBRetail). Even if they struggle to find shitlaw for years, this may be a step up from A/C repair. Law school can carry great symbolic weight for some people and to tell them that they are idiots destined for apocalyptic poverty just makes you seem out of touch. Ok, sorry for the interruption, back to the circle jerk.


Campos says that there are only certain schools you should attend at sticker price, not that you couldn't attend those schools at a signifcant discount. The sums that some law students are talking about borrowing are vast- over 230k all in. If the advice sounds elitist, it's only becuase the prices charged are currently viable only for members of the upper class. 230k starts to become an iffy proposition evn if you have a 50%+ shot at biglaw.

Advising pople not to borrow 230k to attend a shitty law school just to be a lawyer (which you won't really be without a job) isn't elitist- it's common sense.


now wait a second. If we take Campos at his word here, the advice extends to not attending UCLA with a 100k scholarship, not attending UF for 10k a year, not attending Penn at sticker and so on. Timbs, I agree with the hypo you put forth, but I think Campos' would go further.


I wouldn't go so far as the UF example, and I'm not sure if Professor Campos would either (he's ITT so I guess we can ask him) but UCLA for 150K is not worth it right now. I would advise a prospective UCLA student at that price to drop out after year one if they don't get biglaw or the grades for biglaw/PSLF qualifying PI/gov.

However, I don't think that really has anything to do with elitism. You can question whether his valuation of the school's ROI is off, but I don't think that's "elitist" especially when the conclusion a lot of time is that the student should attend a regional school at low cost over an expensive private like Emory or GW at much higher cost.

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dingbat
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Re: Campos upcoming book "Don't go to Law School(Unless)"

Postby dingbat » Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:49 pm

I'd like to point out that while there are plenty of exceptions to Campos' guidelines, the gist of it is true and accurate for most people. If you are a valid exception, it may still be useful to think along the lines suggested.

I did my own research, built my own financial models and came to conclusions on my own (strong finance background). I also am a genuine exception to the above, and am a bit of a sceptic of the doom and gloom of eg LSN.
However, my basis for research and analysis was very similar to what Campos suggests.

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helix23
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Re: Campos upcoming book "Don't go to Law School(Unless)"

Postby helix23 » Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:46 pm

Paul Campos wrote:
helix23 wrote:I know it's early, but anyone think it's worth the $4.99 for those of us without prime?


If you're asking this question then you don't need to buy the book because you shouldn't be considering law school.



What? That doesn't follow. My asking if one book about law schools is worth spending my money on doesn't mean I shouldn't be considering law school. I've done plenty of research and am genuinely concerned with the job market and all of the potential pitfalls of attending law school, but why spend money on something that regurgitates the same information that I can access online for free?

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Rahviveh
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Re: Campos upcoming book "Don't go to Law School(Unless)"

Postby Rahviveh » Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:55 pm

I read this over the weekend and it was a good read. If you're a TLS regular you may not learn anything new. The chapter on the value of the law school education was what I found most interesting!

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sunynp
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Re: Campos upcoming book "Don't go to Law School(Unless)"

Postby sunynp » Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:49 pm

There is a tl;dr version of a sort in this interview/article on the book:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... chool.html

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dowu
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Re: Campos upcoming book "Don't go to Law School(Unless)"

Postby dowu » Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:26 am

sunynp wrote:There is a tl;dr version of a sort in this interview/article on the book:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... chool.html

Damn, this makes me not want to go. If I can't get into my strong regional for a decent good price, I won't go.

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Tuco Salamanca
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Re: Campos upcoming book "Don't go to Law School(Unless)"

Postby Tuco Salamanca » Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:44 am

kwais wrote:I agree with Campos on most points and think this book can help people, but I think there is an air of elitism. I have met many students, for whom admission and attendance at any law school is a massive source of pride for them and their families. Many of these people do not have good alternatives (IBRetail). Even if they struggle to find shitlaw for years, this may be a step up from A/C repair. Law school can carry great symbolic weight for some people and to tell them that they are idiots destined for apocalyptic poverty just makes you seem out of touch. Ok, sorry for the interruption, back to the circle jerk.


You can make good money doing A/C repair, plumbing, electrician work, etc. I'd argue that it's a much better option than what many legal graduates are getting when you factor in debt and opportunity cost. It's not prestigious but you can make a really, really nice living doing that work. You argue against elitism, but saying shitlaw is better than A/C repair reeks of elitism to me.

I'm one of those people for who getting into any law school would be a big source of pride for me and my family. Being broke and unemployed 3 years after would ruin that though so I'm aiming high. Prospective students need to be realistic about their opportunities and likely outcomes. People attending schools such as Cooley for sticker for the "pride" of saying they go to law school ARE idiots destined for apocalyptic poverty.

To Campos: Thank you for speaking out against the system and getting your word out there, whether by your blog or this book. There is a lot of ignorance when it comes to legal education and too many people are still convinced that it's a golden ticket to success. I'm lucky in that my parents trust my judgment and won't pressure me to make a decision I'll regret. Others might not be so lucky, and I'd hate to see people ruin their lives based on outside pressures (their parents want to brag about their law student) and fraudulent employment data. You're at least trying to combat this ignorance, and I appreciate your hard work.

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TheThriller
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Re: Campos upcoming book "Don't go to Law School(Unless)"

Postby TheThriller » Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:27 pm

Just had my parents read it




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