Campos upcoming book "Don't go to Law School(Unless)"

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sunynp
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Campos upcoming book "Don't go to Law School(Unless)"

Postby sunynp » Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:31 am

Campos is finally publishing an ebook of advice for people who are considering law school. I think it will be on Amazon next week. He says that the book will also be useful for boomer parents and lawyers who have no idea what has happened in the market for lawyers over the past 20 years.

There is a blurb about it on ATL today as well as the National Law Journal (excerpt below).


For would-be students who clear Campos' initial hurdle, in that they have a real interest in practicing law, the book suggests an extensive examination of whether a law degree makes economic sense. Prospective students should take into account the debt they will assume, their odds of landing the job they want and the salary they will likely earn. All while avoiding what Campos calls the "Special Snowflake Syndrome" — the tendency to be overly optimistic about one's prospects.

"Almost everyone who goes to law school plans to work exceptionally hard and finish in the top 10 percent of the class," the book says. "Ninety percent of these people are going to see their plan fail." (bold added)

Campos suggests ways to read the jobs data provided by individual law schools and the American Bar Association — focus on the percentage of graduates in full-time, long-term jobs that require a J.D.; look at three categories of "real legal jobs" open to new graduates — working at a private law firm, being a state or local prosecutor, or being a public defender. Campos counsels that new graduates do get hired by public-interest law organizations, but in such small numbers that the career path shouldn't play into a prospective law student's decision.

In addition to would-be law students, Campos said, he also wrote the book to help bring baby-boomer lawyers and pushy parents up to speed about how law school and the legal market have changed, in hopes they won't advise their children that law school is always a solid decision.

"The cost of law school and the likely future return on a law degree have both changed so radically over the past 20 years, and especially over the past decade, that many older people, and even many older lawyers, have no idea how risky a proposition law school has become," the book reads. "Rather than relying on the conventional wisdom, do your own research about costs and likely outcomes."

Ultimately, Campos suggests, paying full tuition makes sense at only a handful of elite schools, and paying a significantly reduced tuition only makes sense at between seven and 10 "truly national law schools." Even accepting a free ride makes sense at only about three dozen "good regional schools," by Campos' estimate. (bold added)

"The most important thing for any prospective law student to keep in mind is that, at present, the large majority of law graduates — perhaps 80 percent — end up worse off after going to law school that they were before they enrolled," the book reads.

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Tom Joad
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Re: Campos upcoming book "Don't go to Law School(Unless)"

Postby Tom Joad » Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:34 am

<3 Campos.

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dowu
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Re: Campos upcoming book "Don't go to Law School(Unless)"

Postby dowu » Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:03 am

Tom Joad wrote:<3 Campos.

Paul Campos
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Re: Campos upcoming book "Don't go to Law School(Unless)"

Postby Paul Campos » Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:01 pm

Thanks for the plug. The book should be available on Amazon today. (A print version will be available later).

BTW part of the material I drew on when writing it was provided by my correspondence with many TLS posters and readers -- I even quote a couple in the book. And I want to make clear that I'm happy to correspond with anyone who is thinking about going to or staying in law school (although I would appreciate it if people read the book as well naturally).

Edit: People can find the book here: --LinkRemoved--
Last edited by Paul Campos on Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

tim.janitor
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Re: Campos upcoming book "Don't go to Law School(Unless)"

Postby tim.janitor » Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:06 pm

Is there a link to the ABL page? Thanks!

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sunynp
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Re: Campos upcoming book "Don't go to Law School(Unless)"

Postby sunynp » Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:53 pm

Campos book is on Amazon now in an ebook edition.

Don't Go to Law School (unless)

It is free for Amazon prime members and $5.00 for everyone else. But you can get primer for free if you have an .edu email address, so I assume many of the people here have a free prime account.

It will be coming out in a print edition.

I haven't had a chance to read it yet. I think a lot of the text will be familiar to readers of his blog, but for the many 0Ls out there who don't read the blog it will be a good resource as the blog can be hard to navigate.

I'm still hoping to find out which schools he recommends as being worth attending.

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sunynp
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Re: Campos upcoming book "Don't go to Law School(Unless)"

Postby sunynp » Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:56 pm

tim.janitor wrote:Is there a link to the ABL page? Thanks!

The above the law page is just a note in the morning docket from yesterday that links to the National Law Journal article.

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rayiner
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Re: Campos upcoming book "Don't go to Law School(Unless)"

Postby rayiner » Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:00 pm

This is great!

"Chapter 4: There is no such thing as international environmental sports law."
"Chapter 6: ... How to deal with clueless baby boomers."

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spicyyoda17
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Re: Campos upcoming book "Don't go to Law School(Unless)"

Postby spicyyoda17 » Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:28 pm

Read the book today. It's a nice and quick read. Just be aware that he doesn't actually spell out which schools are and are not worth attending. He just explains how individuals can go about figuring out for themselves which schools they should and should not consider.

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Rahviveh
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Re: Campos upcoming book "Don't go to Law School(Unless)"

Postby Rahviveh » Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:30 pm

How do you get this without a kindle? I have a Nexus 7

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spicyyoda17
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Re: Campos upcoming book "Don't go to Law School(Unless)"

Postby spicyyoda17 » Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:33 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:How do you get this without a kindle? I have a Nexus 7


There should be a downloadable kindle app. If there isn't, you can also download the "app" onto your PC/mac (this is what I did).

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sunynp
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Re: Campos upcoming book "Don't go to Law School(Unless)"

Postby sunynp » Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:55 pm

"most people going to most law schools who find themselves in the bottom half of the class after their first year would be better off dropping out."

Preach it brother. If people are going to give law school a shot, they should be prepared to leave if they aren't making median or better.

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UtilityMonster
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Re: Campos upcoming book "Don't go to Law School(Unless)"

Postby UtilityMonster » Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:35 pm

sunynp wrote:"most people going to most law schools who find themselves in the bottom half of the class after their first year would be better off dropping out."

Preach it brother. If people are going to give law school a shot, they should be prepared to leave if they aren't making median or better.


At which schools?

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helix23
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Re: Campos upcoming book "Don't go to Law School(Unless)"

Postby helix23 » Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:51 pm

I know it's early, but anyone think it's worth the $4.99 for those of us without prime?

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HBBJohnStamos
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Re: Campos upcoming book "Don't go to Law School(Unless)"

Postby HBBJohnStamos » Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:55 pm

sunynp wrote:Ultimately, Campos suggests, paying full tuition makes sense at only a handful of elite schools, and paying a significantly reduced tuition only makes sense at between seven and 10 "truly national law schools."


Guess I'm fucked at my DCN.

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R86
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Re: Campos upcoming book "Don't go to Law School(Unless)"

Postby R86 » Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:08 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:How do you get this without a kindle? I have a Nexus 7


Kindle app.

You can only get the free lenders library version if you both (a) have Amazon Prime and (b) have an actual Kindle.

It's $5.00 well spent, though.

Unrelated Sidenote: There is some TTT school I keep getting fee waivers from. The adcom lady's last name is Campos. Makes me look twice every time.

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Re: Campos upcoming book "Don't go to Law School(Unless)"

Postby BruceWayne » Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:17 pm

HBBJohnStamos wrote:
sunynp wrote:Ultimately, Campos suggests, paying full tuition makes sense at only a handful of elite schools, and paying a significantly reduced tuition only makes sense at between seven and 10 "truly national law schools."


Guess I'm fucked at my DCN.


I know you're being sarcastic, but quite honestly you are in very dangerous territory if you're below median at any of those schools.

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Re: Campos upcoming book "Don't go to Law School(Unless)"

Postby Paul Campos » Fri Sep 21, 2012 7:45 am

helix23 wrote:I know it's early, but anyone think it's worth the $4.99 for those of us without prime?


If you're asking this question then you don't need to buy the book because you shouldn't be considering law school.

TL;DR:

"If you find you can’t get into any of the tiny and shrinking handful (and by handful I mean three to six) of law schools that remain reasonable choices for many people even when paying full tuition, and if you don’t have the option of attending any of the other seven to ten truly national law schools at a significantly reduced price, or any of three dozen or so good regional schools for little or nothing more than the opportunity cost, then you should wait.

Do something – anything – other than attend an average law school at the average price. If you insist on doing so you’re likely to experience what is now the average result for law graduates, which is something between a serious disappointment and a life-wrecking disaster."

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kwais
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Re: Campos upcoming book "Don't go to Law School(Unless)"

Postby kwais » Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:00 am

I agree with Campos on most points and think this book can help people, but I think there is an air of elitism. I have met many students, for whom admission and attendance at any law school is a massive source of pride for them and their families. Many of these people do not have good alternatives (IBRetail). Even if they struggle to find shitlaw for years, this may be a step up from A/C repair. Law school can carry great symbolic weight for some people and to tell them that they are idiots destined for apocalyptic poverty just makes you seem out of touch. Ok, sorry for the interruption, back to the circle jerk.

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sunynp
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Re: Campos upcoming book "Don't go to Law School(Unless)"

Postby sunynp » Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:08 am

I think the book is worth it. You could read his entire blog for free instead I guess. The book has more direct and concise advice. The book
also has specific steps to take to calculate costs and to help make decisions.

Prof campos- did I miss it or do you explain which regional schools are worth attending fo free? I can figure out the top 3-6 that are probably worth sticker and I suppose it is the rest of the t14 ( plus Texas) for a large discount, but I didn't see the info on distinguishing decent regional schools. I read it quickly so I might have missed that chapter. I'm a grad from a T 6 so it isn't for me, but how do people pick regional schools?

I will read it again more carefully.

By the way, I think that emphasizing fro
the beginning to not go to law school unless you want to be a lawyer and you spend time working in some capacity with lawyers is the best advice. I think there are still people who go to law school just because they can't think of anything else to do.

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sunynp
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Re: Campos upcoming book "Don't go to Law School(Unless)"

Postby sunynp » Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:24 am

kwais wrote:I agree with Campos on most points and think this book can help people, but I think there is an air of elitism. I have met many students, for whom admission and attendance at any law school is a massive source of pride for them and their families. Many of these people do not have good alternatives (IBRetail). Even if they struggle to find shitlaw for years, this may be a step up from A/C repair. Law school can carry great symbolic weight for some people and to tell them that they are idiots destined for apocalyptic poverty just makes you seem out of touch. Ok, sorry for the interruption, back to the circle jerk.


I think that as long as people go to school knowing they may never actually practice law or that they will be on IBR for the next 20 years, then it is their own choice to go if it helps them out for other reasons. The problem I see is that most people still think that law school is a ticket to money or the upper middle class. I think that law schools published misleading data for so long and that boomers benefited from a time where tuition was low, so even if you didn't practice you weren't in lifelong debt, that the economic reality of law school is much different from what most people assume.

P
I don't think it is elitism. I think of it as a way to get a job that will allow you to live and repay debt. But I definitely see how it comes across as elitism.

As long as people know that law is no golden ticket to financial success and they arent kidding themselves abiut being the special sniwflake who will just work hard abd be top 10%. then I don't think people are idiots for pursuing a dream.

(just FYI- I have a cousin who thinks she wants to go to law school at the university of Dayton. I'm trying to get her to understand reality. She truly won't listen. She can live at home and get some help with tuition but she will be in 6 figures of debt. She just is arrogant about her chances of being the top of her class and thinks I
extremely elitist for trying so hard to talk her out of it. She is not grasping- or refusing to listen to- the reality of employment as a lawyer in Dayton Ohio who will owe more than $100,000.)

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Re: Campos upcoming book "Don't go to Law School(Unless)"

Postby Paul Campos » Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:30 am

sunynp wrote:I think the book is worth it. You could read his entire blog for free instead I guess. The book has more direct and concise advice. The book
also has specific steps to take to calculate costs and to help make decisions.

Prof campos- did I miss it or do you explain which regional schools are worth attending fo free? I can figure out the top 3-6 that are probably worth sticker and I suppose it is the rest of the t14 ( plus Texas) for a large discount, but I didn't see the info on distinguishing decent regional schools. I read it quickly so I might have missed that chapter. I'm a grad from a T 6 so it isn't for me, but how do people pick regional schools?

I will read it again more carefully.

By the way, I think that emphasizing fro
the beginning to not go to law school unless you want to be a lawyer and you spend time working in some capacity with lawyers is the best advice. I think there are still people who go to law school just because they can't think of anything else to do.


The chapters on how to read employment and salary statistics and how to choose a law school emphasize that you shouldn't apply to any law school that won't give you the information you need to decide if the risk/return calculation involved in going to that school makes sense. This calculation is going to vary quite a bit between individuals, so I didn't think it made sense to list the 37 or whatever "good regional schools" that will be worth attending for many people at prices drastically below sticker. So much of that calculation depends on how good the connections people have to the areas in which such schools are located, etc.

I would strongly advise against applying to any school that either doesn't post its 2011 NALP summary data (the new long form) or the equivalent data in another format, or won't give you it when you ask to see it.

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kwais
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Re: Campos upcoming book "Don't go to Law School(Unless)"

Postby kwais » Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:34 am

sunynp wrote:
kwais wrote:I agree with Campos on most points and think this book can help people, but I think there is an air of elitism. I have met many students, for whom admission and attendance at any law school is a massive source of pride for them and their families. Many of these people do not have good alternatives (IBRetail). Even if they struggle to find shitlaw for years, this may be a step up from A/C repair. Law school can carry great symbolic weight for some people and to tell them that they are idiots destined for apocalyptic poverty just makes you seem out of touch. Ok, sorry for the interruption, back to the circle jerk.


I think that as long as people go to school knowing they may never actually practice law or that they will be on IBR for the next 20 years, then it is their own choice to go if it helps them out for other reasons. The problem I see is that most people still think that law school is a ticket to money or the upper middle class. I think that law schools published misleading data for so long and that boomers benefited from a time where tuition was low, so even if you didn't practice you weren't in lifelong debt, that the economic reality of law school is much different from what most people assume.

P
I don't think it is elitism. I think of it as a way to get a job that will allow you to live and repay debt. But I definitely see how it comes across as elitism.

As long as people know that law is no golden ticket to financial success and they arent kidding themselves abiut being the special sniwflake who will just work hard abd be top 10%. then I don't think people are idiots for pursuing a dream.

(just FYI- I have a cousin who thinks she wants to go to law school at the university of Dayton. I'm trying to get her to understand reality. She truly won't listen. She can live at home and get some help with tuition but she will be in 6 figures of debt. She just is arrogant about her chances of being the top of her class and thinks I
extremely elitist for trying so hard to talk her out of it. She is not grasping- or refusing to listen to- the reality of employment as a lawyer in Dayton Ohio who will owe more than $100,000.)


agreed. I guess because I have met many students who don't believe that they will get models and bottles, it sometimes sounds like a straw man to me. But my time on TLS has certainly taught me that those snowflakes exist as well.

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Re: Campos upcoming book "Don't go to Law School(Unless)"

Postby timbs4339 » Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:30 am

kwais wrote:I agree with Campos on most points and think this book can help people, but I think there is an air of elitism. I have met many students, for whom admission and attendance at any law school is a massive source of pride for them and their families. Many of these people do not have good alternatives (IBRetail). Even if they struggle to find shitlaw for years, this may be a step up from A/C repair. Law school can carry great symbolic weight for some people and to tell them that they are idiots destined for apocalyptic poverty just makes you seem out of touch. Ok, sorry for the interruption, back to the circle jerk.


Campos says that there are only certain schools you should attend at sticker price, not that you couldn't attend those schools at a signifcant discount. The sums that some law students are talking about borrowing are vast- over 230k all in. If the advice sounds elitist, it's only becuase the prices charged are currently viable only for members of the upper class. 230k starts to become an iffy proposition evn if you have a 50%+ shot at biglaw.

Advising pople not to borrow 230k to attend a shitty law school just to be a lawyer (which you won't really be without a job) isn't elitist- it's common sense.

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skers
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Re: Campos upcoming book "Don't go to Law School(Unless)"

Postby skers » Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:32 am

Did you at least credit TLS in the foreword?




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