H over Columbia any day of the week?

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JCougar
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Re: H over Columbia any day of the week?

Postby JCougar » Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:16 pm

--LinkRemoved--

Here's a better synopsis about Coumbia's job-inflation from Above the Law.

And here's Campos's response

http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot. ... mbers.html

Columbia and NYU, to my knowledge, have not explained why they were the only firms to have experienced this "glitch" in over-reporting NLJ 250 employment numbers. Did the firms that not report only hire from Columbia and NYU, and not Yale, Chicago, Michigan, or Duke?

Both are obviously still great options, but you still have to beware of what they tell you.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: H over Columbia any day of the week?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:33 pm

For anyone who cares, the discrepancy in CLS, NYU, and Harvard's employment numbers was discussed back in March here:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=180319

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JCougar
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Re: H over Columbia any day of the week?

Postby JCougar » Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:23 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:For anyone who cares, the discrepancy in CLS, NYU, and Harvard's employment numbers was discussed back in March here:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=180319


I really don't see how the schools' response resolves the issue--why NYU and Columbia would have the discrepancy but nobody else would.

It sounds like the school administration read through the TLS thread and just bullet-pointed a list of excuses/explainations TLS posters were making and just said "it's all of these explanations together."

These are already schools that are funneling unemployed graduates into long-term, school-funded "jobs" to trick the Law School Transparency ratings. So I have no doubt that they would just simply make up other numbers on their own if they thought nobody was paying attention.

All schools fudge the numbers, including mine and including yours. Remember when Duke reported 100% employment? They have all proven they shouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt. NYU's response doesn't explain at all why only them and CLS, and not other schools that place heavily in NYC or place associates in overseas firms did not show the same discrepancy.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: H over Columbia any day of the week?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:41 pm

I guess we just have to agree to disagree. What we can't disagree on is that this was strictly a CLS/NYU phenomenon. Harvard also had a substantial discrepancy (as well as 5% of the class in school funded employment), and in other years other schools had substantial discrepancies. MVP in 2009 all had huge discrepancies with the NLJ numbers.

Everyone does need to be skeptical. Just gotta do the best with the data we have and keep pushing the schools for more.

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JCougar
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Re: H over Columbia any day of the week?

Postby JCougar » Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:23 pm

Well, my dean just took charge of the ABA Section on Legal Education, so we will see what happens. It will be hard to institute real reform without pissing a bunch of people off, but I hope he does. I think some of the changes made previously are good for people who are adept enough to seek out information. However, there is a lot of progress to be made. There has to be standardized job reporting data, where each school has to go the Vanderbilt route of just releasing all the information about the job but the name of the person in it. Then you have to be forced to read it as you are signing your loan documents.

Sooner or later something's going to have to be done, because there's going to be about 10K students per year defaulting on $200K of debt, and it's going to drain the federal budget--and some of these people will be very smart, motivated people from Ivy League schools. You can't discharge these loans in bankruptcy, but you can't squeeze blood out of a turnip, either. People will just default, and we'll have a huge mess on our hands if tuition doesn't go down or about 30% of law schools now open are closed. That means some professors and administrators are going to have to look elsewhere for work. But so be it.

This entire crisis is embarrassing to the industry. It's lowering the prestige of being a lawyer overall.

delusional
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Re: H over Columbia any day of the week?

Postby delusional » Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:39 pm

ColtsFan88 wrote:
JamMasterJ wrote:If you exclusively are interested in NYC biglaw and have no connections to secondary markets, you are most likely in a position where going to CLS makes sense. There are probably not many people who are getting into H and not getting a bit more money at CLS/NYU. Though, CLS does suck for placement in Pearson Hardman.

Otherwise, Harvard is probably better barring a pretty substantial money difference.


Criminally under-rated post.
True story: I googled Pearson Hardman. The first result was their website. It has its oddities but it took five or six clicks for me to realize that it was not a real firm website. I might be the rare person who needs to watch more TV.

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Yukos
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Re: H over Columbia any day of the week?

Postby Yukos » Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:13 pm

delusional wrote:
ColtsFan88 wrote:
JamMasterJ wrote:If you exclusively are interested in NYC biglaw and have no connections to secondary markets, you are most likely in a position where going to CLS makes sense. There are probably not many people who are getting into H and not getting a bit more money at CLS/NYU. Though, CLS does suck for placement in Pearson Hardman.

Otherwise, Harvard is probably better barring a pretty substantial money difference.


Criminally under-rated post.
True story: I googled Pearson Hardman. The first result was their website. It has its oddities but it took five or six clicks for me to realize that it was not a real firm website. I might be the rare person who needs to watch more TV.


TBF, missing a "Suits" reference isn't quite the same as missing a "Wire" reference...

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unc0mm0n1
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Re: H over Columbia any day of the week?

Postby unc0mm0n1 » Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:17 pm

Yukos wrote:
delusional wrote:
ColtsFan88 wrote:
JamMasterJ wrote:If you exclusively are interested in NYC biglaw and have no connections to secondary markets, you are most likely in a position where going to CLS makes sense. There are probably not many people who are getting into H and not getting a bit more money at CLS/NYU. Though, CLS does suck for placement in Pearson Hardman.

Otherwise, Harvard is probably better barring a pretty substantial money difference.


Criminally under-rated post.
True story: I googled Pearson Hardman. The first result was their website. It has its oddities but it took five or six clicks for me to realize that it was not a real firm website. I might be the rare person who needs to watch more TV.


TBF, missing a "Suits" reference isn't quite the same as missing a "Wire" reference...


I think I'm the only person in the world to have never seen an episode of the wire. It's funny because I own the series but I fell asleep during the first episode and never watched again.

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Yukos
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Re: H over Columbia any day of the week?

Postby Yukos » Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:12 am

unc0mm0n1 wrote:
Yukos wrote:
delusional wrote:True story: I googled Pearson Hardman. The first result was their website. It has its oddities but it took five or six clicks for me to realize that it was not a real firm website. I might be the rare person who needs to watch more TV.


TBF, missing a "Suits" reference isn't quite the same as missing a "Wire" reference...


I think I'm the only person in the world to have never seen an episode of the wire. It's funny because I own the series but I fell asleep during the first episode and never watched again.


The first episode is TTT (not really but it feels that way because you don't know anyone). You kinda have to marathon through the first four episodes and then you'll realize it's the greatest TV show ever and watch all five seasons in a couple days.

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BruceWayne
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Re: H over Columbia any day of the week?

Postby BruceWayne » Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:06 pm

News flash: I know people at H who are below median and have offers to multiple secondary markets. Truthfully I don't know anybody who struck out. Median people are getting V10 offers. If you struck out at H you either

a) had multiple LP's. Which is hard to do.

b) Bid terribly. (i.e. Below median but only bid D.C. and V10 or only on a very insular market)

c) Are awkward and a terrible interviewer.

Even if those things do apply to you, there should be no way you can't hustle and find something through mass mailing.

Lastly if everything else fails you still have programs like PMF that every HLS grad that applied in recent years has been certified. And if you're an HLS PMF you're in demand. Yeah making between 50k-70k isn't a ton of money but with LRAP it'll get you a decent living.

I don't know that much about Columbia I only know 4 or 5 people there and they seem to be doing pretty well but they are all working in NYC. There are people here working everywhere from Seattle down to Miami without that many ties or great grades. Now if we're talking full ride vs Full sticker, I'd say screw all of the advantages and I'd be at CLS but chances are you won't get a full ride at CLS and you won't pay full sticker at H.


Through all the absurd inflamed responses from a few Columbia 1Ls on here what I was saying got lost in translation. Thankfully this post sums it up 100 percent. This is exactly my point.

On a somewhat related topic what JCougar posted is another reason why I personally don't buy into that "85 percent of Columbia and NYU have a firm job" meme that's been going around TLS lately. It's NEVER been verified in any way and it just doesn't match up with the numbers that are available.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: H over Columbia any day of the week?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:18 pm

For anyone looking to do their own research, here is some CLS employment info:

http://www.law.columbia.edu/null/downlo ... _id=611272

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Re: H over Columbia any day of the week?

Postby snailio » Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:31 pm

taf889 wrote:in what circumstances is it advisable to pick columbia over harvard if accepted at both, and nominal money at columbia?




OP, there really isn't a reason to pick Columbia over Harvard for nominal money. The Butler is routinely left on the table even Hammy's every year are left for Harvard. I know there are some Columbia people on here and it's cool they defend their school but the reality is there really is a gap and it's quite substantial once you get away from NY.

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Re: H over Columbia any day of the week?

Postby JamMasterJ » Sat Oct 13, 2012 12:16 pm

BruceWayne wrote:On a somewhat related topic what JCougar posted is another reason why I personally don't buy into that "85 percent of Columbia and NYU have a firm job" meme that's been going around TLS lately. It's NEVER been verified in any way and it just doesn't match up with the numbers that are available.

who said that? :shock:

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Re: H over Columbia any day of the week?

Postby bhan87 » Sat Oct 13, 2012 12:29 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
News flash: I know people at H who are below median and have offers to multiple secondary markets. Truthfully I don't know anybody who struck out. Median people are getting V10 offers. If you struck out at H you either

a) had multiple LP's. Which is hard to do.

b) Bid terribly. (i.e. Below median but only bid D.C. and V10 or only on a very insular market)

c) Are awkward and a terrible interviewer.

Even if those things do apply to you, there should be no way you can't hustle and find something through mass mailing.

Lastly if everything else fails you still have programs like PMF that every HLS grad that applied in recent years has been certified. And if you're an HLS PMF you're in demand. Yeah making between 50k-70k isn't a ton of money but with LRAP it'll get you a decent living.

I don't know that much about Columbia I only know 4 or 5 people there and they seem to be doing pretty well but they are all working in NYC. There are people here working everywhere from Seattle down to Miami without that many ties or great grades. Now if we're talking full ride vs Full sticker, I'd say screw all of the advantages and I'd be at CLS but chances are you won't get a full ride at CLS and you won't pay full sticker at H.


Through all the absurd inflamed responses from a few Columbia 1Ls on here what I was saying got lost in translation. Thankfully this post sums it up 100 percent. This is exactly my point.

On a somewhat related topic what JCougar posted is another reason why I personally don't buy into that "85 percent of Columbia and NYU have a firm job" meme that's been going around TLS lately. It's NEVER been verified in any way and it just doesn't match up with the numbers that are available.


Okay kid let's clarify a few things.

1. You were the one to start the flaming. At the very least, you baited it. I found your posts amusing at first, but now you're getting downright annoying for trying to take the moral high ground.

2. The 85% number for last year HAS BEEN VERIFIED (at least for CLS). There are multiple threads where the CLS spreadsheet for last years OCI has been leaked. Try to find this if you're curious, but it lists every firm that interviewed at CLS and gives the # of callbacks and offers. It's pretty detailed so you can draw your own conclusions. According to that sheet 85% of students had an offer out of EIP according to the # of offers that were accepted.

3. None of the CCN defenders in this thread were trying to claim that CCN = H at equal price. That scenario only arose because of your misinformed and ignorant theory that need-based aid at HYS means that they will give you enough scholarship / grant money to finance your legal education without loans. HYS students on other threads have already called you out on this. The typical debt from HYS is 135-140k, while a Hamilton will bring you down to around 40k. If you don't think 100k is a big deal, you're out of your mind.

4. I take back what I said in a different thread BW. You really are a bad poster. You sound like that kid on the playground that everyone hates, but thinks is awesome.

You should sit down and let people with direct experience give their opinion. 0Ls don't need your opinion of choosing law schools in your fantasy land where HYS need-based aid means free legal education for everyone.
Last edited by bhan87 on Sat Oct 13, 2012 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: H over Columbia any day of the week?

Postby JamMasterJ » Sat Oct 13, 2012 12:32 pm

Cannot wait till TaipeiMort sees this thread and either he and Bruce fuck or TLS explodes

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Re: H over Columbia any day of the week?

Postby PDaddy » Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:30 pm

taf889 wrote:in what circumstances is it advisable to pick columbia over harvard if accepted at both, and nominal money at columbia?


...and by "nominal", you mean, what, a dollar? Forgive me for the legal reference, I am working on a case and my brain is fried. Lol. I would NEVER advise anyone to pick CLS over Harvard with less money - unless they must care for a sick relative or have a large inheritance (i.e. $2M minimum) that mandates attending CLS. In the former case, I would wonder why they don't just hold off altogether.

That having been said, I have seen a few people pick several other top-10's over Harvard over the years, YS, CCN, MVPNB all included among them. But that was when the money was better at the other schools and the student had other reasons for attending the other schools. Even in those times (2000-2008) I would would have draw the line at Cornell and GULC, and certainly any school below them - though I did hear about the son of a Hollywood exec who chose UCLA so he could stay close to home. With less money, there is almost NEVER a good reason to turn down Harvard. The general rule is if you get into Harvard, you go to Harvard, unless the other school is Yale or Stanford.
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Re: H over Columbia any day of the week?

Postby skers » Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:47 pm

bhan87 wrote:
Okay kid let's clarify a few things.

1. You were the one to start the flaming. At the very least, you baited it. I found your posts amusing at first, but now you're getting downright annoying for trying to take the moral high ground.

2. The 85% number for last year HAS BEEN VERIFIED (at least for CLS). There are multiple threads where the CLS spreadsheet for last years OCI has been leaked. Try to find this if you're curious, but it lists every firm that interviewed at CLS and gives the # of callbacks and offers. It's pretty detailed so you can draw your own conclusions. According to that sheet 85% of students had an offer out of EIP according to the # of offers that were accepted.

3. None of the CCN defenders in this thread were trying to claim that CCN = H at equal price. That scenario only arose because of your misinformed and ignorant theory that need-based aid at HYS means that they will give you enough scholarship / grant money to finance your legal education without loans. HYS students on other threads have already called you out on this. The typical debt from HYS is 135-140k, while a Hamilton will bring you down to around 40k. If you don't think 100k is a big deal, you're out of your mind.

4. I take back what I said in a different thread BW. You really are a bad poster. You sound like that kid on the playground that everyone hates, but thinks is awesome.

You should sit down and let people with direct experience give their opinion. 0Ls don't need your opinion of choosing law schools in your fantasy land where HYS need-based aid means free legal education for everyone.


No, bro you don't understand. There's no such thing as CCN. There's no such thing as the t6. UVA is just as good as Columbia, and understanding that you realize that Harvard is better than Columbia any day of the week.

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Re: H over Columbia any day of the week?

Postby PDaddy » Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:59 pm

TemporarySaint wrote:
There's no such thing as CCN. There's no such thing as the t6. UVA is just as good as Columbia, and understanding that you realize that Harvard is better than Columbia any day of the week.


I agree with your conclusion, but it is based on faulty reasoning. In order to surmise that Harvard is clearly preferable to Columbia, we must be able to group CLS with "peers" that do not include Harvard. CCN is a perfectly understandable grouping, given that we use the HYS grouping to denote their superiority over all other law schools.

The fact that people believe in a "top-6" does not mean that they view those six schools equally; it instead differentiates those six schools in some way from schools ranked below it. Also remember that four of the six schools are located in the northeast, so geography also contributes to the grouping. Nevertheless, I do agree that there is almost no difference between #4-13.

Many academics would say that CLS and Chicago are equal to or just a notch below Stanford in terms of education quality and prestige, and their clerkship and professorial opportunities are certainly superior to those of other schools not named HYS.

I think NYU, Michigan, Northwestern, Penn, UVA, Duke, Cornell, and Berkeley are similar. With scholarship money being equal, I could rationalize someone choosing Vandy, UCLA and USC (and possibly even Texas) over some of the aforementioned schools, and certainly GULC.

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Re: H over Columbia any day of the week?

Postby bhan87 » Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:30 pm

TemporarySaint wrote:No, bro you don't understand. There's no such thing as CCN. There's no such thing as the t6. UVA is just as good as Columbia, and understanding that you realize that Harvard is better than Columbia any day of the week.


'Kay, not CCN. How about maybe CCNP? Or CC / NP? No one is contesting HLS > CLS at equal cost absent special circumstances. We're talking about Hamilton / Butlers vs HLS here, which is something that you and BW seem to keep forgetting.

Also, I really don't like talking down schools typically, but UVA is not a peer to CLS (especially in terms of NYC biglaw hiring). They of course have the advantage in the Virginia market, but CLS>UVA in most other markets. And no, this isn't a subjective opinion. This is based on the number of slots that firm try to allocate to these two schools each year.

This is not the most precise way to test this conclusion (would take way to much time than needed to look at each year's class sizes, but you could if you wish), but just search for the # of associates from each school at the top firms. Absent some crazy aberration where one school creates more burned out associates over the other, the # of current associates should somewhat correlate to the # of summers they try to hire each year. Even if you account for the fact that UVA has a smaller class, the gap is fairly large. (Also yes, don't forget Vault rankings can be stupid, but you can't deny that even if they may not be ranked properly, the firms that appear on that list are typically good firms).

WLRK: 29 HLS, 15 CLS, 0 UVA
Cravath: 48 HLS, 53 CLS, 7 UVA
Skadden: 76 HLS, 71 CLS, 31 UVA (This count might be off)
STB: 95 HLS, 85 CLS, 63 UVA
DPW: 75 HLS, 68 CLS, 10 UVA
S&C: 56 HLS, 61 CLS, 18 UVA
Weil: No search by school function... Not gonna bother, but I bet it's similarly correlated.
Cleary: 90 HLS, 92 CLS, 14 UVA (Site is weird though. They have Columbia Law School and Columbia School of Law as separate schools and some UVA JD grads are not under UVA law, but under UVA, which gets mixed in with UVA undergrad people)

You could keep going, but the results are pretty consistent as you go down the list...

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Re: H over Columbia any day of the week?

Postby BruceWayne » Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:14 pm

Bhan and Temp you all should really change your screen names to Straw man 2012 or something. At this point I don't even know what you're talking about. Like I said everything that I'm saying can be summed up with the following quote--no more no less.

unc0mm0n1 wrote:News flash: I know people at H who are below median and have offers to multiple secondary markets. Truthfully I don't know anybody who struck out. Median people are getting V10 offers. If you struck out at H you either

a) had multiple LP's. Which is hard to do.

b) Bid terribly. (i.e. Below median but only bid D.C. and V10 or only on a very insular market)

c) Are awkward and a terrible interviewer.

Even if those things do apply to you, there should be no way you can't hustle and find something through mass mailing.

Lastly if everything else fails you still have programs like PMF that every HLS grad that applied in recent years has been certified. And if you're an HLS PMF you're in demand. Yeah making between 50k-70k isn't a ton of money but with LRAP it'll get you a decent living.

I don't know that much about Columbia I only know 4 or 5 people there and they seem to be doing pretty well but they are all working in NYC. There are people here working everywhere from Seattle down to Miami without that many ties or great grades. Now if we're talking full ride vs Full sticker, I'd say screw all of the advantages and I'd be at CLS but chances are you won't get a full ride at CLS and you won't pay full sticker at H.


And bhan why are you having such a hard time with reading comp? Do you not understand the difference between "everyone who gets into HYS gets in for free" vs. "if you end up paying sticker at Harvard, because of their need based aid, that means that your finances are such that the debt is not a problem for you" ? I guess you could be trying to equate the two statements as a strawman thing though but I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and just assuming you're confused about the difference.

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Re: H over Columbia any day of the week?

Postby bhan87 » Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:23 pm

BruceWayne wrote:And bhan why are you having such a hard time with reading comp? Do you not understand the difference between "everyone who gets into HYS gets in for free" vs. "if you end up paying sticker at Harvard, because of their need based aid, that means that your finances are such that the debt is not a problem for you" ? I guess you could be trying to equate the two statements as a strawman thing though but I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and just assuming you're confused about the difference.


You're having trouble understanding simple finance... Except for the super-poor, HYS does not give out enough scholarship / grant money for their students to go to their school without taking on debt. In addition, just because you pay sticker or near sticker at HYS doesn't mean you are rich enough to afford HYS without taking on loans. Which, again if you read more carefully and listened to what actual HYS students have said on the subject, the typical debt load for HYS students is 135-140k. Can you pay that back? Certainly, but a 100k difference is significant. Your argument only makes sense to the poorest students and the richest students. There are a huge chunk of students in the middle that won't get enough grant money to cover the full cost and are not rich enough to pay out of pocket. The Butler / Hamilton is valuable to THOSE STUDENTS.

And to get back to the OP. I don't think a Butler is enough to justify turning down HLS, but if you're looking to get into NY biglaw, Hamilton > sticker HLS (possibly up to 30k'ish grant from HLS too

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BruceWayne
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Re: H over Columbia any day of the week?

Postby BruceWayne » Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:34 pm

You're having trouble understanding simple finance... Except for the super-poor, HYS does not give out enough scholarship / grant money for their students to go to their school without taking on debt. In addition, just because you pay sticker or near sticker at HYS doesn't mean you are rich enough to afford HYS without taking on loans. Which, again if you read more carefully and listened to what actual HYS students have said on the subject, the typical debt load for HYS students is 135-140k. Can you pay that back? Certainly, but a 100k difference is significant. Your argument only makes sense to the poorest students and the richest students. There are a huge chunk of students in the middle that won't get enough grant money to cover the full cost and are not rich enough to pay out of pocket. The Butler / Hamilton is valuable to THOSE STUDENTS.

And to get back to the OP. I don't think a Butler is enough to justify turning down HLS, but if you're looking to get into NY biglaw, Hamilton > sticker HLS (possibly up to 30k'ish grant from HLS too


2 things--your comment about the "super poor" is very revealing. Not that I'm surprised but you come from a very privileged background. A personal friend attends Stanford, and he/she is going for straight free outside of living expenses: his household income is something like 50K. I will reiterate the only people who pay sticker at HYS are well-off period.

2nd you are just strawmanning like wild. I'm not saying that everyone is going to HYS without taking out any debt. What I'm saying is that because of the way their financial aid program works, and because of the very large job prospect differential between the two schools, CLS with the Hamilton is not going to be the better decision for most people. Especially when you tack on the LRAP program at HYS. Essentially if you're in the position where you are paying full freight with no need-based aid at HYS, but you have been given the Hamilton then you are a well off person with high numbers. Now the unfortunate irony of the situation (but that's getting into another topic) is that that PROBABLY does describe the majority of Harvard law admits :D

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Re: H over Columbia any day of the week?

Postby unc0mm0n1 » Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:55 pm

PDaddy wrote:
taf889 wrote:in what circumstances is it advisable to pick columbia over harvard if accepted at both, and nominal money at columbia?


...and by "nominal", you mean, what, a dollar? Forgive me for the legal reference, I am working on a case and my brain is fried. Lol. I would NEVER advise anyone to pick CLS over Harvard with less money - unless they must care for a sick relative or have a large inheritance (i.e. $2M minimum) that mandates attending CLS. In the former case, I would wonder why they don't just hold off altogether.

That having been said, I have seen a few people pick several other top-10's over Harvard over the years, YS, CCN, MVPNB all included among them. But that was when the money was better at the other schools and the student had other reasons for attending the other schools. Even in those times (2000-2008) I would would have draw the line at Cornell and GULC, and certainly any school below them - though I did hear about the son of a Hollywood exec who chose UCLA so he could stay close to home. With less money, there is almost NEVER a good reason to turn down Harvard. The general rule is if you get into Harvard, you go to Harvard, unless the other school is Yale or Stanford.


Dat Ginsburg.

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Re: H over Columbia any day of the week?

Postby unc0mm0n1 » Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:02 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
You're having trouble understanding simple finance... Except for the super-poor, HYS does not give out enough scholarship / grant money for their students to go to their school without taking on debt. In addition, just because you pay sticker or near sticker at HYS doesn't mean you are rich enough to afford HYS without taking on loans. Which, again if you read more carefully and listened to what actual HYS students have said on the subject, the typical debt load for HYS students is 135-140k. Can you pay that back? Certainly, but a 100k difference is significant. Your argument only makes sense to the poorest students and the richest students. There are a huge chunk of students in the middle that won't get enough grant money to cover the full cost and are not rich enough to pay out of pocket. The Butler / Hamilton is valuable to THOSE STUDENTS.

And to get back to the OP. I don't think a Butler is enough to justify turning down HLS, but if you're looking to get into NY biglaw, Hamilton > sticker HLS (possibly up to 30k'ish grant from HLS too


2 things--your comment about the "super poor" is very revealing. Not that I'm surprised but you come from a very privileged background. A personal friend attends Stanford, and he/she is going for straight free outside of living expenses: his household income is something like 50K. I will reiterate the only people who pay sticker at HYS are well-off period.

2nd you are just strawmanning like wild. I'm not saying that everyone is going to HYS without taking out any debt. What I'm saying is that because of the way their financial aid program works, and because of the very large job prospect differential between the two schools, CLS with the Hamilton is not going to be the better decision for most people. Especially when you tack on the LRAP program at HYS. Essentially if you're in the position where you are paying full freight with no need-based aid at HYS, but you have been given the Hamilton then you are a well off person with high numbers. Now the unfortunate irony of the situation (but that's getting into another topic) is that that PROBABLY does describe the majority of Harvard law admits :D


Bruce I will say this. A lot of people here have rich families but they kind of cut them off now that they are in law school. So they get screwed on the Aid but mom and dad aren't picking up the bill. Now if worse came to worse I'm pretty sure their parents would bail them out but some people who don't get aid actually don't have much personal money.

AllTheLawz
Posts: 369
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:20 pm

Re: H over Columbia any day of the week?

Postby AllTheLawz » Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:39 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
You're having trouble understanding simple finance... Except for the super-poor, HYS does not give out enough scholarship / grant money for their students to go to their school without taking on debt. In addition, just because you pay sticker or near sticker at HYS doesn't mean you are rich enough to afford HYS without taking on loans. Which, again if you read more carefully and listened to what actual HYS students have said on the subject, the typical debt load for HYS students is 135-140k. Can you pay that back? Certainly, but a 100k difference is significant. Your argument only makes sense to the poorest students and the richest students. There are a huge chunk of students in the middle that won't get enough grant money to cover the full cost and are not rich enough to pay out of pocket. The Butler / Hamilton is valuable to THOSE STUDENTS.

And to get back to the OP. I don't think a Butler is enough to justify turning down HLS, but if you're looking to get into NY biglaw, Hamilton > sticker HLS (possibly up to 30k'ish grant from HLS too


2 things--your comment about the "super poor" is very revealing. Not that I'm surprised but you come from a very privileged background. A personal friend attends Stanford, and he/she is going for straight free outside of living expenses: his household income is something like 50K. I will reiterate the only people who pay sticker at HYS are well-off period.

2nd you are just strawmanning like wild. I'm not saying that everyone is going to HYS without taking out any debt. What I'm saying is that because of the way their financial aid program works, and because of the very large job prospect differential between the two schools, CLS with the Hamilton is not going to be the better decision for most people. Especially when you tack on the LRAP program at HYS. Essentially if you're in the position where you are paying full freight with no need-based aid at HYS, but you have been given the Hamilton then you are a well off person with high numbers. Now the unfortunate irony of the situation (but that's getting into another topic) is that that PROBABLY does describe the majority of Harvard law admits :D


Just to end this argument.. I am the "super poor" (EFC of 0) and got max aid at both Harvard and Stanford (clarification: max aid for a single student). Stanford aid was slightly more but their student budget was slightly more as well so it ended up a less than ~2k difference between the two. At both schools, max aid resulted in 3 year debt load of around ~$130k. The typical aid recipient at HYS ends up with well upwards of $150k in loans. I know multiple people with family income of 100-150k who are taking out 200k in loans.

Also, LIPP at Harvard is actually very generous, though a little less so than Stanford, and will cover lots of private sector jobs as well as public. I think the official stance is that it will cover any public interest/gov't job and any private sector job that isn't extremely uncommon for a JD.




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