H over Columbia any day of the week? Forum

[kwu]

2 things--your comment about the "super poor" is very revealing. Not that I'm surprised but you come from a very privileged background. A personal friend attends Stanford, and he/she is going for straight free outside of living expenses: his household income is something like 50K. I will reiterate the only people who pay sticker at HYS are well-off period.

I recall getting into an argument with some kid on CC who was whining about, playing the victim over, the terrifying prospect of attending his state flagship's honors program over Harvard College because his family made $300,000+ a year. The threshold beyond which one becomes disqualified for FA at HUG is $150,000.

Granted, HLS's measly $1.7 billion endowment hinders it from being as generous as the College, but the very thought of kids coming from families making even $100,000+ a year complaining about loans, unable to make long-term abstract cost-benefit analyses, is ridiculous to me.

The point of BruceWayne's argument is clear: one has to come from means not to receive need-based aid from YHS--at which point, the tangible benefit of a $150,000 grant from CLS is completely out-shadowed by the abstract benefit of graduating from HLS.

[bhan87]

You're having trouble understanding simple finance... Except for the super-poor, HYS does not give out enough scholarship / grant money for their students to go to their school without taking on debt. In addition, just because you pay sticker or near sticker at HYS doesn't mean you are rich enough to afford HYS without taking on loans. Which, again if you read more carefully and listened to what actual HYS students have said on the subject, the typical debt load for HYS students is 135-140k. Can you pay that back? Certainly, but a 100k difference is significant. Your argument only makes sense to the poorest students and the richest students. There are a huge chunk of students in the middle that won't get enough grant money to cover the full cost and are not rich enough to pay out of pocket. The Butler / Hamilton is valuable to THOSE STUDENTS.

And to get back to the OP. I don't think a Butler is enough to justify turning down HLS, but if you're looking to get into NY biglaw, Hamilton > sticker HLS (possibly up to 30k'ish grant from HLS too

2 things--your comment about the "super poor" is very revealing. Not that I'm surprised but you come from a very privileged background. A personal friend attends Stanford, and he/she is going for straight free outside of living expenses: his household income is something like 50K. I will reiterate the only people who pay sticker at HYS are well-off period.

2nd you are just strawmanning like wild. I'm not saying that everyone is going to HYS without taking out any debt. What I'm saying is that because of the way their financial aid program works, and because of the very large job prospect differential between the two schools, CLS with the Hamilton is not going to be the better decision for most people. Especially when you tack on the LRAP program at HYS. Essentially if you're in the position where you are paying full freight with no need-based aid at HYS, but you have been given the Hamilton then you are a well off person with high numbers. Now the unfortunate irony of the situation (but that's getting into another topic) is that that PROBABLY does describe the majority of Harvard law admits

Just to end this argument.. I am the "super poor" (EFC of 0) and got max aid at both Harvard and Stanford (clarification: max aid for a single student). Stanford aid was slightly more but their student budget was slightly more as well so it ended up a less than ~2k difference between the two. At both schools, max aid resulted in 3 year debt load of around ~$130k. The typical aid recipient at HYS ends up with well upwards of $150k in loans. I know multiple people with family income of 100-150k who are taking out 200k in loans.

Also, LIPP at Harvard is actually very generous, though a little less so than Stanford, and will cover lots of private sector jobs as well as public. I think the official stance is that it will cover any public interest/gov't job and any private sector job that isn't extremely uncommon for a JD.

Apologies for the choice of words. I should have been more sensitive. However, I hope AllTheLawz's post clarifies how HYS need-based aid works. I thought it was more generous, but apparently not. This, again, confirms that we should be looking to people with direct experience.

[JamMasterJ]

2 things--your comment about the "super poor" is very revealing. Not that I'm surprised but you come from a very privileged background. A personal friend attends Stanford, and he/she is going for straight free outside of living expenses: his household income is something like 50K. I will reiterate the only people who pay sticker at HYS are well-off period.

I recall getting into an argument with some kid on CC who was whining about, playing the victim over, the terrifying prospect of attending his state flagship's honors program over Harvard College because his family made $300,000+ a year. The threshold beyond which one becomes disqualified for FA at HUG is $150,000.

Granted, HLS's measly $1.7 billion endowment hinders it from being as generous as the College, but the very thought of kids coming from families making even $100,000+ a year complaining about loans, unable to make long-term abstract cost-benefit analyses, is ridiculous to me.

The point of BruceWayne's argument is clear: one has to come from means not to receive need-based aid from YHS--at which point, the tangible benefit of a $150,000 grant from CLS is completely out-shadowed by the abstract benefit of graduating from HLS.

Do half of Harvard's students really have enough family money that sticker tuition is just a drop in the bucket?
I'm not saying that's definitely not the case, but I would be surprised.

[EdgarWinter]

ITT people troll about which of two options they have never been good enough to actually have is clearly superior to the other option they have not ever had. Aside from AllTheLawz's post and Bhan's nice flaming of BW there hasn't been anything useful said in awhile now.

[BruceWayne]

Just to end this argument.. I am the "super poor" (EFC of 0) and got max aid at both Harvard and Stanford (clarification: max aid for a single student). Stanford aid was slightly more but their student budget was slightly more as well so it ended up a less than ~2k difference between the two. At both schools, max aid resulted in 3 year debt load of around ~$130k. The typical aid recipient at HYS ends up with well upwards of $150k in loans. I know multiple people with family income of 100-150k who are taking out 200k in loans.

Also, LIPP at Harvard is actually very generous, though a little less so than Stanford, and will cover lots of private sector jobs as well as public. I think the official stance is that it will cover any public interest/gov't job and any private sector job that isn't extremely uncommon for a JD.[/quote]

Just because you have a EFC of 0 doesn't mean you automatically get their max grants. My friend who actually attends Stanford now received huge need based grants--but again like I said his household income was well under 100K. A little over a 1/3 of Stanford receives half to full tuition grants. https://officialguide.lsac.org/Release/ ... lData.aspx. And about 22% of Harvard receives half to full tuition grants. Some students at Harvard even receive more than full tuition grants. https://officialguide.lsac.org/Release/ ... lData.aspx. Like I said before and I'll say it again. The way that HYS structure their need based aid, the only people who pay full tuition at HYS are those that make a substantial amount of money anyway.

In addition, I'm not really sure why you're pointing out that people making 100-150K are taking out 200K in loans as somehow contradicting what I said. As I said before people who make substantial sums of money (i.e 100-150K!) are the ones who end up paying sticker at HYS.

The point of BruceWayne's argument is clear: one has to come from means not to receive need-based aid from YHS--at which point, the tangible benefit of a $150,000 grant from CLS is completely out-shadowed by the abstract benefit of graduating from HLS.

How was this poster able to get this without even reading the whole thread, but Bhan and kwais are struggling to comprehend it and are arguing against strawmen positions?

[bhan87]

How was this poster able to get this without even reading the whole thread, but Bhan and kwais are struggling to comprehend it and are arguing against strawmen positions?

BW, if you ever wonder why people naturally get irritated talking to you, just read through this thread. Your pseudo attempts at refereeing and attempts to take the high ground are just baffling... I can only hope that you don't act this way wherever you choose to work. Just in case your parents never taught you this when you were a kid, trying to talk down someone by referring to them in the third person is a sign of childish pettiness and only hurts your credibility. In fact, this works against your attempt to take the high ground because it's clearly evident that your only purpose to responding to these threads is to make sure your internet pride is fulfilled, not actually giving out helpful information.

And no, we didn't fail to comprehend this "argument" or "opinion" that you continually try to portray as a fact. You seem to get infuriated that people argue that 150k is not worth the intagible (prestige?) benefit of an HYS degree. Our point is that 150k actually DOES matter to some people, especially when (as has been pointed out multiple times here) people at HYS strike out each year.

Even from a purely rational standpoint, the slight bump you get during recruiting (negligible for NYC biglaw hiring in my opinion), may not be worth paying an extra 150k for. I posted earlier associate #s for HLS vs. CLS at some firms (I recommend looking into more), which shows there are similar numbers of associates from each school, but at some firms there is trend towards more HLS (i.e. WLRK). To those considering both schools take it as you will, but I don't think your employment chances are hurt that much by coming to CLS, and you can use 150k for loads of other valuable things (saving for a home for instance).

*Flame shield up for another petty BW attack*

[BruceWayne]

How was this poster able to get this without even reading the whole thread, but Bhan and kwais are struggling to comprehend it and are arguing against strawmen positions?

BW, if you ever wonder why people naturally get irritated talking to you, just read through this thread. Your pseudo attempts at refereeing and attempts to take the high ground are just baffling... I can only hope that you don't act this way wherever you choose to work. Just in case your parents never taught you this when you were a kid, trying to talk down someone by referring to them in the third person is a sign of childish pettiness and only hurts your credibility. In fact, this works against your attempt to take the high ground because it's clearly evident that your only purpose to responding to these threads is to make sure your internet pride is fulfilled, not actually giving out helpful information.

And no, we didn't fail to comprehend this "argument" or "opinion" that you continually try to portray as a fact. You seem to get infuriated that people argue that 150k is not worth the intagible (prestige?) benefit of an HYS degree. Our point is that 150k actually DOES matter to some people, especially when (as has been pointed out multiple times here) people at HYS strike out each year.

Even from a purely rational standpoint, the slight bump you get during recruiting (negligible for NYC biglaw hiring in my opinion), may not be worth paying an extra 150k for. I posted earlier associate #s for HLS vs. CLS at some firms (I recommend looking into more), which shows there are similar numbers of associates from each school, but at some firms there is trend towards more HLS (i.e. WLRK). To those considering both schools take it as you will, but I don't think your employment chances are hurt that much by coming to CLS, and you can use 150k for loads of other valuable things (saving for a home for instance).

*Flame shield up for another petty BW attack*

The bolded is the only important part of what you said so I'm responding to it. However, I'll say this, I'm not "attempting to play referee "or whatever the hell you're talking about I just don't give a shit about conventional TLS mantra like Columbia is basically the same as HYS, 85 percent of their students have big firm jobs, and the only job prospects that matter are those involving NYC firm jobs. I care about one thing--what is actually true. So I'm not going to go along with whatever bullshit that's just repeated but isn't backed up by anything. For one, the whole thing about HYS not giving out huge need based grants is straight bullshit. And unlike those arguing to the contrary, I actually posted factual data showing that (see my last post with lsac info for who gets need based aid etc.).

Response to the bolded: Why in the world would someone with the option of going to HYS vs. Columbia only consider the difference in NYC job prospects? That's insane. I'm glad you are making the argument in this manner because it's the same thing that Kwais did. If you take the very odd approach of evaluating HYS vs. Columbia based on the only area where the two schools are comparable, of course it starts to look like a minor difference between the two schools. But that's absolutely absurd. HYS will give someone a minor bump over Columbia for a NYC firm job--this has been repeated ad nauseam by a few Columbia 1Ls in this thread and yourself. No one is disputing that. But the bump that you get from a hiring standpoint for ALL other markets is huge. Further, you get a huge bump in clerkship prospects. If you want a firm job in a non NYC market from HYS you can probably get it in addition to being able to get a NYC firm job. If you go to Columbia and get below the median GPA, you will be lucky to get a firm job in NYC--let alone one in DC, Texas, Chicago etc. That's a big damn difference although you are trying to portray it as if it's not.

[bhan87]

How was this poster able to get this without even reading the whole thread, but Bhan and kwais are struggling to comprehend it and are arguing against strawmen positions?

BW, if you ever wonder why people naturally get irritated talking to you, just read through this thread. Your pseudo attempts at refereeing and attempts to take the high ground are just baffling... I can only hope that you don't act this way wherever you choose to work. Just in case your parents never taught you this when you were a kid, trying to talk down someone by referring to them in the third person is a sign of childish pettiness and only hurts your credibility. In fact, this works against your attempt to take the high ground because it's clearly evident that your only purpose to responding to these threads is to make sure your internet pride is fulfilled, not actually giving out helpful information.

And no, we didn't fail to comprehend this "argument" or "opinion" that you continually try to portray as a fact. You seem to get infuriated that people argue that 150k is not worth the intagible (prestige?) benefit of an HYS degree. Our point is that 150k actually DOES matter to some people, especially when (as has been pointed out multiple times here) people at HYS strike out each year.

Even from a purely rational standpoint, the slight bump you get during recruiting (negligible for NYC biglaw hiring in my opinion), may not be worth paying an extra 150k for. I posted earlier associate #s for HLS vs. CLS at some firms (I recommend looking into more), which shows there are similar numbers of associates from each school, but at some firms there is trend towards more HLS (i.e. WLRK). To those considering both schools take it as you will, but I don't think your employment chances are hurt that much by coming to CLS, and you can use 150k for loads of other valuable things (saving for a home for instance).

*Flame shield up for another petty BW attack*

The bolded is the only important part of what you said so I'm responding to it. However, I'll say this, I'm not "attempting to play referee "or whatever the hell you're talking about I just don't give a shit about conventional TLS mantra like Columbia is basically the same as HYS, 85 percent of their students have big firm jobs, and the only job prospects that matter are those involving NYC firm jobs. I care about one thing--what is actually true. So I'm not going to go along with whatever bullshit that's just repeated but isn't backed up by anything. For one, the whole thing about HYS not giving out huge need based grants is straight bullshit. And unlike those arguing to the contrary, I actually posted factual data showing that (see my last post with lsac info for who gets need based aid etc.).

Response to the bolded: Why in the world would someone with the option of going to HYS vs. Columbia only consider the difference in NYC job prospects? That's insane. I'm glad you are making the argument in this manner because it's the same thing that Kwais did. If you take the very odd approach of evaluating HYS vs. Columbia based on the only area where the two schools are comparable, of course it starts to look like a minor difference between the two schools. But that's absolutely absurd. HYS will give someone a minor bump over Columbia for a NYC firm job--this has been repeated ad nauseam by a few Columbia 1Ls in this thread and yourself. No one is disputing that. But the bump that you get from a hiring standpoint for ALL other markets is huge. Further, you get a huge bump in clerkship prospects. If you want a firm job in a non NYC market from HYS you can probably get it in addition to being able to get a NYC firm job. If you go to Columbia and get below the median GPA, you will be lucky to get a firm job in NYC--let alone one in DC, Texas, Chicago etc. That's a big damn difference although you are trying to portray it as if it's not.

Now you're finally talking some sense, but I don't think it really contributes any new perspectives (0Ls with the choice, go to HYS if you want to clerk / go into academia...). I'll rephrase my post to disclaim that I'm referring to NYC biglaw hiring. I agree HYS would have the advantage for certain non-NYC markets. SLS for CA of course is a huge one. I doubt that HLS has much of edge in that market over CLS.

Chicago, you'd be better of going to UChicago over CLS making it a somewhat moot point, but if you were forced to choose between HYS vs. CLS I guess HYS probably has a clear edge (looking at associate #s at Kirkland Chicago and MWE Chicago is one indicator)

D.C. is a bad example as that market is so grade dependent that you can't really count on a bump from HYS to get you into those firms. At that point, I think the rationale shifts from say (warning: arbitrary numbers) need to make top 20% vs top 10% to outside shot either way, might as well go with the lower debt risk. However, I guess it depends on how much you value that added edge.

Regarding your comment about below median students, I disagree that a below median CLS student will be at a severe disadvantage at OCI compared to an HYS student with straight Ps (or however many Hs firms use as their soft cutoff line for their recruitment purposes). Having gone through OCI (and also talking to dozens of students from both CLS and HLS), it seems a below median student at either school (in the case of HLS, a student with mostly Ps) is not going to get a boost from having one name over the other. What matters infinitely more in that situation is personality and ability to sell yourself during the screener / callback.

[EdgarWinter]

I am starting to think that BW is just trolling everyone.

BW what really amuses me is how many "strawman" (yes we get that you know the names if not the meanings of elementary fallacies) arguments you are actually making. Nobody is saying 85% of CLS gets biglaw. Nobody is saying that the random guy who lucks into a full-tuition financial aid deal at HYS shouldn't take it. Nobody is even saying that going HYS over $$$$ isn't the right choice for some people. So STFU about that stupid crap already. What people are saying and what you apparently refuse to acknowledge is that HYS DOES NOT prevent most people from getting into $130k+ debt, and one would have to be abjectly stoopid not to ponder that if one had a $$$$ fallback option.

Many of the comparatively few HYS graduates who had the chance at CCN $$$$ are wondering how they managed to fuck up their debt-ridden lives while they toil away next to CCN graduates. Think about that the next time you pay Sallie Mae.

Finally: you've never attended HYS. You've never had the option of CCN debt-free opulence. You don't know what the fuck you are talking about, so please stop it already.

[Blessedassurance]

Regarding your comment about below median students, I disagree that a below median CLS student will be at a severe disadvantage at OCI compared to an HYS student with straight Ps (or however many Hs firms use as their soft cutoff line for their recruitment purposes). Having gone through OCI (and also talking to dozens of students from both CLS and HLS), it seems a below median student at either school (in the case of HLS, a student with mostly Ps) is not going to get a boost from having one name over the other. What matters infinitely more in that situation is personality and ability to sell yourself during the screener / callback.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

[AllTheLawz]

Just to end this argument.. I am the "super poor" (EFC of 0) and got max aid at both Harvard and Stanford (clarification: max aid for a single student). Stanford aid was slightly more but their student budget was slightly more as well so it ended up a less than ~2k difference between the two. At both schools, max aid resulted in 3 year debt load of around ~$130k. The typical aid recipient at HYS ends up with well upwards of $150k in loans. I know multiple people with family income of 100-150k who are taking out 200k in loans.

Also, LIPP at Harvard is actually very generous, though a little less so than Stanford, and will cover lots of private sector jobs as well as public. I think the official stance is that it will cover any public interest/gov't job and any private sector job that isn't extremely uncommon for a JD.

Just because you have a EFC of 0 doesn't mean you automatically get their max grants. My friend who actually attends Stanford now received huge need based grants--but again like I said his household income was well under 100K. A little over a 1/3 of Stanford receives half to full tuition grants. https://officialguide.lsac.org/Release/ ... lData.aspx. And about 22% of Harvard receives half to full tuition grants. Some students at Harvard even receive more than full tuition grants. https://officialguide.lsac.org/Release/ ... lData.aspx. Like I said before and I'll say it again. The way that HYS structure their need based aid, the only people who pay full tuition at HYS are those that make a substantial amount of money anyway.

In addition, I'm not really sure why you're pointing out that people making 100-150K are taking out 200K in loans as somehow contradicting what I said. As I said before people who make substantial sums of money (i.e 100-150K!) are the ones who end up paying sticker at HYS.

The point of BruceWayne's argument is clear: one has to come from means not to receive need-based aid from YHS--at which point, the tangible benefit of a $150,000 grant from CLS is completely out-shadowed by the abstract benefit of graduating from HLS.

How was this poster able to get this without even reading the whole thread, but Bhan and kwais are struggling to comprehend it and are arguing against strawmen positions?

[/quote]

Lol.. you are arguing with someone who has actually been through the financial aid process?? I know what the max grant is for a single student. Ive been through the process of meeting with financial aid officers. Ive seen the formulas. Ive done the math myself. The students who are receiving grants of more than tuition have special circumstances (children, medical stuff, military kicking in some aid, etc.). You literally have no idea what you are talking about. The max grant for a normal single student at all of HYS results in six figure debt if you stick to the student budget. That is a fact. I have an EFC of 0 plus a student contribution from assets of 0 that does, in fact, mean that I automatically get max aid. That is kind of how need-based aid works.

Also, where are you getting the idea that $100-$150k household income is a "significant income" in comparison to $200k debt. A lot, maybe most, of people in that range are effectively in the same position as a low-income student in terms of family helping out with debt (that is to say they bear the entire burden of debt on their own). They are paying slightly less than the kids whose parents are rich enough to pay the whole thing out of pocket.

I took max aid at H over full rides at most of the t-14 (but not CC). It turned out to probably be a good decision in my case since I ended up not dominating on the grade front and was still able to land at a highly regarded firm. Had I been at a lesser school I might have been in a little more precarious position. In fairness, I definitely took it easier work wise than I would have at another school. That said, I still question my decision to turn down offers at t-10 schools that would have cost me $25-45k total versus the $135k total that H will end up costing for what could be the same outcome.

[bhan87]

Regarding your comment about below median students, I disagree that a below median CLS student will be at a severe disadvantage at OCI compared to an HYS student with straight Ps (or however many Hs firms use as their soft cutoff line for their recruitment purposes). Having gone through OCI (and also talking to dozens of students from both CLS and HLS), it seems a below median student at either school (in the case of HLS, a student with mostly Ps) is not going to get a boost from having one name over the other. What matters infinitely more in that situation is personality and ability to sell yourself during the screener / callback.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Care to elaborate? I've yet to meet a HLS student actually feel they had an edge during OCI. This seems especially true for the CB stage where firms interview lots of schools together.

[Blessedassurance]

Care to elaborate? I've yet to meet a HLS student actually feel they had an edge during OCI. This seems especially true for the CB stage where firms interview lots of schools together.

You'd have to find an HLS student and a CLS student similarly situated. In order to 'find an HLS student who feels...," the HLS students has to know the similarly situated CLS student etc. Straight P's at H is not necessarily fucked. One shouldn't by any means aim for straight P's but if you find yourself in such a situation, you'd rather be at Harvard than at CLS.

I do not think any Law School is worth sticker, period. Worth, is however subjective and different people value things differently. This is a personal decision and I don't understand all this back and forth.

If the choice is between a Hamilton and full cost at Harvard, most people on here will tell you to take the money. That is primarily because Law students are risk-averse and it makes sense ITE due to the nature of Biglaw (attrition, stealth layoffs etc). People pick HYS more than you can imagine though, for a variety of reasons. One year Chicago couldn't get enough people to take the Ruby.

I mean it's a personal decision. Do your research and make an informed decision.

[bhan87]

Care to elaborate? I've yet to meet a HLS student actually feel they had an edge during OCI. This seems especially true for the CB stage where firms interview lots of schools together.

You'd have to find an HLS student and a CLS student similarly situated. In order to 'find an HLS student who feels...," the HLS students has to know the similarly situated CLS student etc. Straight P's at H is not necessarily fucked. One shouldn't by any means aim for straight P's but if you find yourself in such a situation, you'd rather be at Harvard than at CLS.

I do not think any Law School is worth sticker, period. Worth, is however subjective and different people value things differently. This is a personal decision and I don't understand all this back and forth.

If the choice is between a Hamilton and full cost at Harvard, most people on here will tell you to take the money. That is primarily because Law students are risk-averse and it makes sense ITE due to the nature of Biglaw (attrition, stealth layoffs etc). People pick HYS more than you can imagine though, for a variety of reasons. One year Chicago couldn't get enough people to take the Ruby.

I mean it's a personal decision. Do your research and make an informed decision.

Fair enough. I want to add, however, that I'd rather be a Hamilton at CLS with straight Bs than a sticker student at HLS with all Ps. But then again, that definitely is the risk averse side of me.

[Blessedassurance]

Fair enough. I want to add, however, that I'd rather be a Hamilton at CLS with straight Bs than a sticker student at HLS with all Ps. But then again, that definitely is the risk averse side of me.

I'd assume most people who choose full sticker at H over the Hamilton/Ruby etc., aren't worried about the money.

[Blessedassurance]

I am starting to think that BW is just trolling everyone.

BW what really amuses me is how many "strawman" (yes we get that you know the names if not the meanings of elementary fallacies) arguments you are actually making. Nobody is saying 85% of CLS gets biglaw. Nobody is saying that the random guy who lucks into a full-tuition financial aid deal at HYS shouldn't take it. Nobody is even saying that going HYS over $$$$ isn't the right choice for some people. So STFU about that stupid crap already. What people are saying and what you apparently refuse to acknowledge is that HYS DOES NOT prevent most people from getting into $130k+ debt, and one would have to be abjectly stoopid not to ponder that if one had a $$$$ fallback option.

Many of the comparatively few HYS graduates who had the chance at CCN $$$$ are wondering how they managed to fuck up their debt-ridden lives while they toil away next to CCN graduates. Think about that the next time you pay Sallie Mae.

Finally: you've never attended HYS. You've never had the option of CCN debt-free opulence. You don't know what the fuck you are talking about, so please stop it already.

ITT people troll about which of two options they have never been good enough to actually have is clearly superior to the other option they have not ever had. Aside from AllTheLawz's post and Bhan's nice flaming of BW there hasn't been anything useful said in awhile now

180 unexpected anger. It can't be this serious, can it?