NYU v Penn

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opX
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Re: NYU v Penn

Postby opX » Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:15 pm

bobbyflayed wrote:Which school places better back into LA or California in general? The NYC advantage is irrelevant for me; given the choice, I choose California over prestige.


Berkeley ;) - between NYU and UPENN i have no idea. sorry

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Blessedassurance
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Re: NYU v Penn

Postby Blessedassurance » Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:18 pm

opX wrote:prettttty sure there are more NYU alum partners at top law firms than upenn.


There are more GULC alum partners at top law firms than any law school in the country save Harvard.

opX
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Re: NYU v Penn

Postby opX » Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:20 pm

Blessedassurance wrote:
opX wrote:prettttty sure there are more NYU alum partners at top law firms than upenn.


There are more GULC alum partners at top law firms than any law school in the country save Harvard.


ok? what about NYC? and what about NYU v. Upenn? though apparently op doesnt care about that anyway.

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goden
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Re: NYU v Penn

Postby goden » Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:21 pm

bobbyflayed wrote:Which school places better back into LA or California in general? The NYC advantage is irrelevant for me; given the choice, I choose California over prestige.

I'm trying to figure this out in my own thread here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=192597

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JamMasterJ
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Re: NYU v Penn

Postby JamMasterJ » Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:44 pm

bobbyflayed wrote:Which school places better back into LA or California in general? The NYC advantage is irrelevant for me; given the choice, I choose California over prestige.

I'm not sure how Penn does out there, but from what I've heard NYU does very well out there compared to our peers.

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indigomachine
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Re: NYU v Penn

Postby indigomachine » Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:15 pm

OP - Are you planning on paying for law school out of pocket / through family or with substantial help from loans? If the latter, then NYC placement should matter to you considering it's the largest market and is the only one that doesn't require ties.

That said, I'd echo what Jam said; there seem to be a pretty healthy amount of Cali people here, and if you check out the employment stats on both school's sites, it seems NYU places more in CA than Penn. No idea how many of those jobs are firms / PI for either schools.

NYU c/o 2011 CA Placement: 9.87% (link: http://www.law.nyu.edu/careerservices/employmentstatistics/index.htm )
Penn c/o 2011 CA Placement: ~6% (link: https://www.law.upenn.edu/careers/employment-statistics.php)

In your position, I'd RD both unless you were REALLY worried about not getting one of them, in which case I'd ED NYU. I think Jam's right on our median being 171 (no confirmation on this though), so I think you'd have a pretty solid shot at ED.

bobbyflayed
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Re: NYU v Penn

Postby bobbyflayed » Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:21 pm

My family will help, but they definitely will not pay for the whole thing even though they could. I would be taking out a good amount of loans but I feel like its a once in a lifetime chance to be in NYC for a bit.

To Jam and any NYU students out there:

I saw that NYU's big firm placement dropped a lot over the past few years because Public Interest Employment rose from 9-18% of the class. Are those kids going PI because of desire or necessity?

source: http://www.law.nyu.edu/careerservices/e ... /index.htm

kaiser
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Re: NYU v Penn

Postby kaiser » Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:25 pm

bobbyflayed wrote:My family will help, but they definitely will not pay for the whole thing even though they could. I would be taking out a good amount of loans but I feel like its a once in a lifetime chance to be in NYC for a bit.

To Jam and any NYU students out there:

I saw that NYU's big firm placement dropped a lot over the past few years because Public Interest Employment rose from 9-18% of the class. Are those kids going PI because of desire or necessity?

source: http://www.law.nyu.edu/careerservices/e ... /index.htm


PI is often as selective, if not more selective, than big firm jobs. You can't really use PI as some kind of fallback option.

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rayiner
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Re: NYU v Penn

Postby rayiner » Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:25 pm

bobbyflayed wrote:My family will help, but they definitely will not pay for the whole thing even though they could. I would be taking out a good amount of loans but I feel like its a once in a lifetime chance to be in NYC for a bit.

To Jam and any NYU students out there:

I saw that NYU's big firm placement dropped a lot over the past few years because Public Interest Employment rose from 9-18% of the class. Are those kids going PI because of desire or necessity?

source: http://www.law.nyu.edu/careerservices/e ... /index.htm


That 10% rise is entirely accounted for by the extra ~40 temporary school-funded PI positions that NYU has added over the last couple of years.

bobbyflayed
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Re: NYU v Penn

Postby bobbyflayed » Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:29 pm

rayiner wrote:
bobbyflayed wrote:My family will help, but they definitely will not pay for the whole thing even though they could. I would be taking out a good amount of loans but I feel like its a once in a lifetime chance to be in NYC for a bit.

To Jam and any NYU students out there:

I saw that NYU's big firm placement dropped a lot over the past few years because Public Interest Employment rose from 9-18% of the class. Are those kids going PI because of desire or necessity?

source: http://www.law.nyu.edu/careerservices/e ... /index.htm


That 10% rise is entirely accounted for by the extra ~40 temporary school-funded PI positions that NYU has added over the last couple of years.


would it be incorrect to count those as unemployed for research purposes?

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rayiner
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Re: NYU v Penn

Postby rayiner » Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:30 pm

bobbyflayed wrote:
rayiner wrote:
bobbyflayed wrote:My family will help, but they definitely will not pay for the whole thing even though they could. I would be taking out a good amount of loans but I feel like its a once in a lifetime chance to be in NYC for a bit.

To Jam and any NYU students out there:

I saw that NYU's big firm placement dropped a lot over the past few years because Public Interest Employment rose from 9-18% of the class. Are those kids going PI because of desire or necessity?

source: http://www.law.nyu.edu/careerservices/e ... /index.htm


That 10% rise is entirely accounted for by the extra ~40 temporary school-funded PI positions that NYU has added over the last couple of years.


would it be incorrect to count those as unemployed for research purposes?


It would in fact be correct to count those as unemployed.

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indigomachine
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Re: NYU v Penn

Postby indigomachine » Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:43 pm

rayiner wrote:
bobbyflayed wrote:My family will help, but they definitely will not pay for the whole thing even though they could. I would be taking out a good amount of loans but I feel like its a once in a lifetime chance to be in NYC for a bit.

To Jam and any NYU students out there:

I saw that NYU's big firm placement dropped a lot over the past few years because Public Interest Employment rose from 9-18% of the class. Are those kids going PI because of desire or necessity?

source: http://www.law.nyu.edu/careerservices/e ... /index.htm


That 10% rise is entirely accounted for by the extra ~40 temporary school-funded PI positions that NYU has added over the last couple of years.


There were only 7 more school funded positions between 2010 and 2011, which is nowhere near explaining the 10% gap in firm placement between the same two years (neither is the 20-person jump the year before since that's still under 5% of our class). I think it's fair to say that much of the PI bump we're seeing has to do with people not getting firm jobs and there's definitely been a rise in the school funded positions, but the biggest jump in school funded positions (2009-2010) don't line up with the recent drop in firm placement (2010-2011).

Worth noting though that the overwhelming majority of those positions converted to permanent full-time employment. Also worth noting we don't really know what the PI/firm who is taking these school-funded positions. Could be all people gunning for firms, but considering PI is pretty hard to break into as well, I don't see a good reason to assume this.

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Blessedassurance
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Re: NYU v Penn

Postby Blessedassurance » Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:46 pm

OP, you should apply to both RD. Why would you ED? You're basically setting yourself up to pay sticker, which is a bad idea (in my opinion). If you don't get into one (which is highly unlikely) retake and re-apply.

If your primary concern is getting a job, you should probably throw Chicago into the mix. Also, Penn outperforms NYU in employment (research it). The PI stuff is just bullshit, really. This is not to say Penn is better than NYU etc. My main point is to apply RD. You need bargaining power.

You can do the Duke PT thing to calm your nerves, they respond in 10 days.

bdubs
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Re: NYU v Penn

Postby bdubs » Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:50 pm

Pick the one you like more. They both place well into top tier firms. NYU has more representation, but that is because it is 75% larger

bobbyflayed
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Re: NYU v Penn

Postby bobbyflayed » Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:51 pm

Under Penn/NYU, the only other school I'd really want to go to would be UCLA and thats way the fuck down the t14 ladder.

Even If I don't ED I doubt Penn/NYU would give me any money with a 3.62/171. Maybe Michigan would but given prior info, it seems like Penn/NYU would be sticker.

I also have no option of retaking, I've taken it three times already.

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indigomachine
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Re: NYU v Penn

Postby indigomachine » Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:57 pm

Blessedassurance wrote:OP, you should apply to both RD. Why would you ED? You're basically setting yourself up to pay sticker, which is a bad idea (in my opinion). If you don't get into one (which is highly unlikely) retake and re-apply.

If your primary concern is getting a job, you should probably throw Chicago into the mix. Also, Penn outperforms NYU in employment (research it). The PI stuff is just bullshit, really. This is not to say Penn is better than NYU etc. My main point is to apply RD. You need bargaining power.

You can do the Duke PT thing to calm your nerves, they respond in 10 days.


Definitely agree with RD'ing (again, unless you're set on having at least one of the two).

That said, no idea what it's like at other schools, but I feel like every other person I meet is gunning for some sort of PI. Maybe it's the same at Penn and within a few weeks, all the fuzzy save-the-whales sentiments will evaporate into an unshakeable desire for biglawlz models and bottles (or just bottles...)
In the mean time, NYU PI contingent seems very alive and well here.

(Biglaw gunners do seem to be more quiet about their goals than the PI kids, so maybe that has something to do with it. Less "OMG HUMAN RIGHTS" and more "oh, you know, I'll just see what happens. don't want to close off any options... *cough* biglaw *cough*")

bobbyflayed
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Re: NYU v Penn

Postby bobbyflayed » Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:04 pm

I definitely want one of the two. Just need to decide. =(

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rayiner
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Re: NYU v Penn

Postby rayiner » Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:06 pm

indigomachine wrote:
rayiner wrote:
bobbyflayed wrote:My family will help, but they definitely will not pay for the whole thing even though they could. I would be taking out a good amount of loans but I feel like its a once in a lifetime chance to be in NYC for a bit.

To Jam and any NYU students out there:

I saw that NYU's big firm placement dropped a lot over the past few years because Public Interest Employment rose from 9-18% of the class. Are those kids going PI because of desire or necessity?

source: http://www.law.nyu.edu/careerservices/e ... /index.htm


That 10% rise is entirely accounted for by the extra ~40 temporary school-funded PI positions that NYU has added over the last couple of years.


There were only 7 more school funded positions between 2010 and 2011, which is nowhere near explaining the 10% gap in firm placement between the same two years (neither is the 20-person jump the year before since that's still under 5% of our class). I think it's fair to say that much of the PI bump we're seeing has to do with people not getting firm jobs and there's definitely been a rise in the school funded positions, but the biggest jump in school funded positions (2009-2010) don't line up with the recent drop in firm placement (2010-2011).


I'm not saying that the school-funded positions explain the drop in firm placement. I'm saying that the jump in PI/government jobs isn't composed of "real" PI/government jobs.

There were 57 school-funded positions in 2011, and 118 people in public interest/government. There were 22 school-funded positions in 2010, and 104 in public interest/government: http://employmentsummary.abaquestionnaire.org

There were thus 35 more school-funded positions, but only 14 more public interest/government jobs. So there was actually a drop in the number of "real" PI/government positions.

For the C/O 2008, 73.4% of the whole class at NYU got a job at a firm of > 50 attorneys. For C/O 2011, it was only 46%, a total drop of 27%. Where did all those people go? There was an extra 7% of the class going to small firms, 3% doing business/industry (i.e. contract attorneys), 15% doing government/PI (though many of those jobs are fake school-funded positions), 4% doing clerkships.

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BruceWayne
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Re: NYU v Penn

Postby BruceWayne » Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:04 pm

EDing to Penn or NYU ITE is a HORRIBLE idea (or really any other school that offers ED really).

And it's amazing how much going through law school opens your eyes to how things really are. Frankly, the idea that there is a measurable difference for getting a job from Penn vs. NYU is downright laughable. I mean really it is.

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indigomachine
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Re: NYU v Penn

Postby indigomachine » Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:18 pm

rayiner wrote:
indigomachine wrote:
rayiner wrote:
bobbyflayed wrote:My family will help, but they definitely will not pay for the whole thing even though they could. I would be taking out a good amount of loans but I feel like its a once in a lifetime chance to be in NYC for a bit.

To Jam and any NYU students out there:

I saw that NYU's big firm placement dropped a lot over the past few years because Public Interest Employment rose from 9-18% of the class. Are those kids going PI because of desire or necessity?

source: http://www.law.nyu.edu/careerservices/e ... /index.htm


That 10% rise is entirely accounted for by the extra ~40 temporary school-funded PI positions that NYU has added over the last couple of years.


There were only 7 more school funded positions between 2010 and 2011, which is nowhere near explaining the 10% gap in firm placement between the same two years (neither is the 20-person jump the year before since that's still under 5% of our class). I think it's fair to say that much of the PI bump we're seeing has to do with people not getting firm jobs and there's definitely been a rise in the school funded positions, but the biggest jump in school funded positions (2009-2010) don't line up with the recent drop in firm placement (2010-2011).


I'm not saying that the school-funded positions explain the drop in firm placement. I'm saying that the jump in PI/government jobs isn't composed of "real" PI/government jobs.

There were 57 school-funded positions in 2011, and 118 people in public interest/government. There were 22 school-funded positions in 2010, and 104 in public interest/government: http://employmentsummary.abaquestionnaire.org

There were thus 35 more school-funded positions, but only 14 more public interest/government jobs. So there was actually a drop in the number of "real" PI/government positions.

For the C/O 2008, 73.4% of the whole class at NYU got a job at a firm of > 50 attorneys. For C/O 2011, it was only 46%, a total drop of 27%. Where did all those people go? There was an extra 7% of the class going to small firms, 3% doing business/industry (i.e. contract attorneys), 15% doing government/PI (though many of those jobs are fake school-funded positions), 4% doing clerkships.


Thanks for the clarification. That makes more sense.

Jw though when you're talking about real v. school funded PI jobs, are you saying that in the "this is a legitimate organization" sense or in the "This is LRAP eligible sense"? NYU seems to say that these positions are LRAP eligible and if, as they say, the grand majority of them convert to permanent full-time employment (with about half of those being employment in the same position and the other half being employment at another organization), I'd think the school-funded positions that become permanent positions would fall under being "real PI jobs" at least for the purposes of debt? Jw.

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Re: NYU v Penn

Postby paulinaporizkova » Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:20 pm

opX wrote:
Blessedassurance wrote:
opX wrote:prettttty sure there are more NYU alum partners at top law firms than upenn.


There are more GULC alum partners at top law firms than any law school in the country save Harvard.


ok? what about NYC? and what about NYU v. Upenn? though apparently op doesnt care about that anyway.


It's also because Georgetown Law has a graduating class size of like a thousand

HeavenWood
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Re: NYU v Penn

Postby HeavenWood » Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:31 pm

kaiser wrote:
rayiner wrote:
kaiser wrote:COL isn't necessarily higher at NYU. Live in Jersey City or Hoboken, do the 30 minute commute, and its probably even cheaper than Philly COL. Those who want cheaper COL around Manhattan/NYU area can certainly find it if they are flexible.


Philly >> the Dirty Jerz.

Also, Jersey City or Hoboken are not cheaper than Philly.


It is if you know where to look. Lived in multiple places in Jersey City, never paid more than $800/month. Takes 15 min to get to downtown NY. Pretty awesome.

Sure, if you live a ridiculous distance from the city and in a crappy neighborhood. It's not that tough to find an $800 a month studio in a decent area close to Penn's campus.

kaiser
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Re: NYU v Penn

Postby kaiser » Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:33 pm

HeavenWood wrote:
kaiser wrote:
rayiner wrote:
kaiser wrote:COL isn't necessarily higher at NYU. Live in Jersey City or Hoboken, do the 30 minute commute, and its probably even cheaper than Philly COL. Those who want cheaper COL around Manhattan/NYU area can certainly find it if they are flexible.


Philly >> the Dirty Jerz.

Also, Jersey City or Hoboken are not cheaper than Philly.


It is if you know where to look. Lived in multiple places in Jersey City, never paid more than $800/month. Takes 15 min to get to downtown NY. Pretty awesome.

Sure, if you live a ridiculous distance from the city and in a crappy neighborhood. It's not that tough to find an $800 a month studio in a decent area close to Penn's campus.


Nah, nice neighborhood, just a few blocks from the waterfront, but I totally get that you would be able to swing that same rent in Philly and get something much closer to campus.

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DaleCooper
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Re: NYU v Penn

Postby DaleCooper » Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:32 pm

BruceWayne wrote:Frankly, the idea that there is a measurable difference for getting a job from Penn vs. NYU is downright laughable. I mean really it is.


This. NYU vs. Penn is a question of neighborhood vs. athletic conference. There's no wrong choice.

bobbyflayed
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Re: NYU v Penn

Postby bobbyflayed » Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:48 pm

Im hoping someone else could throw me something I didnt think about; I know there is no measurable difference between Penn and NYU recruiting.

My whole dilemma is whether or not living in Manhattan, which would be a once in a lifetime opportunity for me since I want to settle down back in la, is worth the extra ~11,000 each year for three years.




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