. Forum

[The Duck]

Now you're just misstating his argument. You said that if you're median at Michigan you're "likely out" at all major markets. He called bullshit.

So do I

Do you have any evidence of this? Also, be weary of anecdotal arguments. For example, I'm sure some people in the bottom 20% at GTown get NLJ firms. Does that mean that you could reasonably expect to be competitive NLJ firms from the bottom 20% there? Certainly not.

My overall point is that, due to Michigan's lack of being a feeder into a major market, being at the median there is a much riskier proposition than being median at a "peer" school (here primarily meaning PBN). Thus, if given the option (and at anywhere near the same price), someone should always go to a peer school (again, PBN).

Unless, you know...the major market a school feeds into becomes over-saturated. Sure, Penn places a higher percentage into NYC. That means your competing with a larger number of students. And, if anything happens to NYC's bread and butter...like finance...the impact is greater.

Plenty of people at Michigan end up in BigLaw at median or below.

Your argument simply goes way too far. Michigan is right for some people, and Penn for others. That doesn't mean that Penn is always the right choice. Especially since your assertion isn't qualified by if you want NYC.

You're also not allotting for the fact that firms don't want all of their summers from the same school. (For instance, the DC firm I summered with limits themselves to 2-3 G-town people.) This can also skew any perceived benefit of being at a "feeder".

[Pathika]

Now you're just misstating his argument. You said that if you're median at Michigan you're "likely out" at all major markets. He called bullshit.

So do I

Do you have any evidence of this? Also, be weary of anecdotal arguments. For example, I'm sure some people in the bottom 20% at GTown get NLJ firms. Does that mean that you could reasonably expect to be competitive NLJ firms from the bottom 20% there? Certainly not.

My overall point is that, due to Michigan's lack of being a feeder into a major market, being at the median there is a much riskier proposition than being median at a "peer" school (here primarily meaning PBN). Thus, if given the option (and at anywhere near the same price), someone should always go to a peer school (again, PBN).

I don't know what evidence ScrabbleChamp has, but as a current Michigan student, I have access (as I'm students at most other schools have) to the GPA info reported by employers to the school for people they've made offers to. I know what median at my school is, and I promise you there are several NYC firms that dip well below median. Same goes for other markets.

[flem]

I don't know what evidence ScrabbleChamp has, but as a current Michigan student, I have access (as I'm students at most other schools have) to the GPA info reported by employers to the school for people they've made offers to. I know what median at my school is, and I promise you there are several NYC firms that dip well below median. Same goes for other markets.

Obviously grades aren't everything and there will be exceptions, but the issue is that Michigan is only sending 1/3 of the class into large firms anyway. Being below median isn't a comfortable place to be if you're paying sticker price. Penn places a larger portion of the class into large firms.

[The Duck]

I don't know what evidence ScrabbleChamp has, but as a current Michigan student, I have access (as I'm students at most other schools have) to the GPA info reported by employers to the school for people they've made offers to. I know what median at my school is, and I promise you there are several NYC firms that dip well below median. Same goes for other markets.

Obviously grades aren't everything and there will be exceptions, but the issue is that Michigan is only sending 1/3 of the class into large firms anyway. Being below median isn't a comfortable place to be if you're paying sticker price. Penn places a larger portion of the class into large firms.

This may come as a surprise to you, but a large contingent come to Michigan not looking for BigLaw and either skip OCI altogether or aim for a secondary market with no BigLaw presence. That skews our numbers considerably.

I know several people in the top 10% that wanted secondary markets and only bid there. I know people all over the curve that only want PI or government. While Penn has some of these too, we're known for it and attract quite a few. Also, exactly because we don't feed a single market, we get all of the people with T14 grades that want somewhere Midwest but don't know where, want smaller secondary marked, etc.

But this is all self-selection bias...not ability to place.

[Tiago Splitter]

Michigan is right for some people, and Penn for others. That doesn't mean that Penn is always the right choice. Especially since your assertion isn't qualified by if you want NYC.

The "if you want NYC" distinction is meaningless for someone who is paying full price by EDing. You can't afford to shut out NYC as a potential market if you put yourself in that situation.

[flem]

This may come as a surprise to you, but a large contingent come to Michigan not looking for BigLaw and either skip OCI altogether or aim for a secondary market with no BigLaw presence. That skews our numbers considerably.

I'm not referring to NLJ firms only. And I doubt 2/3rds of the class is self selecting outside of work that many people deem the most desirable, Michigan's sweet LRAP notwithstanding.

I mean, I'm not trashing Michigan. I'm from Michigan. I would attend Michigan. But if you're looking at raw numbers and you just want a job that lets you pay back loans, Penn gives you a better shot at doing so.

And like I said, I wouldn't go to Michigan without Midwestern ties.

[Tiago Splitter]

This may come as a surprise to you, but a large contingent come to Michigan not looking for BigLaw and either skip OCI altogether or aim for a secondary market with no BigLaw presence. That skews our numbers considerably.

What caused this to change between 2009 and 2011?

[flem]

The "if you want NYC" distinction is meaningless for someone who is paying full price by EDing. You can't afford to shut out NYC as a potential market if you put yourself in that situation.

lol, also this

Saying you do or don't want NYC is dumb because that's where most of the jobs are, and it's the easiest market to crack. Let's see how picky you are after going through OCI and you're staring unemployment in the face because you "didn't want NYC"

[flem]

What caused this to change between 2009 and 2011?

Apparently less people want 160K jobs during a recession

[The Duck]

Michigan is right for some people, and Penn for others. That doesn't mean that Penn is always the right choice. Especially since your assertion isn't qualified by if you want NYC.

The "if you want NYC" distinction is meaningless for someone who is paying full price by EDing. You can't afford to shut out NYC as a potential market if you put yourself in that situation.

If you say so. There is a difference in throwing some bids to NY just in case and going to a school that primarily only places students there when you really want a different market.

[flem]

If you say so. There is a difference in throwing some bids to NY just in case and going to a school that primarily only places students there when you really want a different market.

-Main interest is paying off loans upon graduation
-No preference for employment location upon graduation

[Pathika]

I don't know what evidence ScrabbleChamp has, but as a current Michigan student, I have access (as I'm students at most other schools have) to the GPA info reported by employers to the school for people they've made offers to. I know what median at my school is, and I promise you there are several NYC firms that dip well below median. Same goes for other markets.

Obviously grades aren't everything and there will be exceptions, but the issue is that Michigan is only sending 1/3 of the class into large firms anyway. Being below median isn't a comfortable place to be if you're paying sticker price. Penn places a larger portion of the class into large firms.

Well, we have 15% going to clerkships... so, if you add them to the mix (assuming that if you are good enough to get a clerkship, you should be good enough to get a firm job), we are closer to 50%... but, I also think that, unfortunately for Michigan, there are many more people here that are not interested in firm jobs (completely anecdotal, but I'd guess that AT LEAST 20% of the students I've met have/had no interest in OCI). Again, I am a homer, but I still think that saying median at Michigan is unlikely to get a job is not valid.

[The Duck]

If you say so. There is a difference in throwing some bids to NY just in case and going to a school that primarily only places students there when you really want a different market.

-Main interest is paying off loans upon graduation
-No preference for employment location upon graduation

Uh, I responded to the guy that said Penn is always the choice. I expressly said each school is right for some people. People ED too much anyhow.

[Pathika]

Michigan is right for some people, and Penn for others. That doesn't mean that Penn is always the right choice. Especially since your assertion isn't qualified by if you want NYC.

The "if you want NYC" distinction is meaningless for someone who is paying full price by EDing. You can't afford to shut out NYC as a potential market if you put yourself in that situation.

Michigan doesn't withhold aid based on ED status. Most of the EDers I know got a good chunk of money thrown at them. Because Michigan has the Summer Start, a lot of very qualified people apply ED because they want the Summer Start. Michigan ED is a different animal than other ED's.

[flem]

Well, we have 15% going to clerkships... so, if you add them to the mix (assuming that if you are good enough to get a clerkship, you should be good enough to get a firm job), we are closer to 50%... but, I also think that, unfortunately for Michigan, there are many more people here that are not interested in firm jobs (completely anecdotal, but I'd guess that AT LEAST 20% of the students I've met have/had no interest in OCI). Again, I am a homer, but I still think that saying median at Michigan is unlikely to get a job is not valid.

I don't disagree, it's just that if you want to maximize your shot at paying back sticker price debt by landing large firm work without location preference, Penn has a non negligible edge. This isn't really debatable.

According to LST:
Michigan: 34% in large firms, 10% in federal clerkships
Penn: 58% in large firms, 9% in federal clerkships

It's not close unless you want to go all in on a particular market. Since this dude just wants biglaw to pay off loans, Penn nearly doubles that chance.

Uh, I responded to the guy that said Penn is always the choice. I expressly said each school is right for some people. People ED too much anyhow.

So you're annoyed that someone neglected to qualify a statement that didn't need to be made in OP's circumstances?

[The Duck]

Uh, I responded to the guy that said Penn is always the choice. I expressly said each school is right for some people. People ED too much anyhow.

So you're annoyed that someone neglected to qualify a statement that didn't need to be made in OP's circumstances?

First of all, I'm far from annoyed. Second, his statement was only marginally directed at OP. It was a broad pronouncement that Penn is always the one that should be selected if the schools are close in cost. That's just stupid.

Not to mention that being median at Michigan does not mean you are likely to be out at all major markets.

Penn is always a better choice than Michigan if the schools are anywhere near the same cost in tuition.

...

It means that if you are a median student at Penn, you are still competitive in NYC. However, if you are median at Michigan, you are likely out at all major markets (NYC, Chi, CA, DC) and will have to seek out secondary markets/markets that you have ties to and pray that you get something.

This kind of misinformation is what leads people to make horrible choices for their particular circumstances.

[flem]

First of all, I'm far from annoyed. Second, his statement was only marginally directed at OP. It was a broad pronouncement that Penn is always the one that should be selected if the schools are close in cost. That's just stupid.

Not to mention that being median at Michigan does not mean you are likely to be out at all major markets.

Penn is always a better choice than Michigan if the schools are anywhere near the same cost in tuition.

...

It means that if you are a median student at Penn, you are still competitive in NYC. However, if you are median at Michigan, you are likely out at all major markets (NYC, Chi, CA, DC) and will have to seek out secondary markets/markets that you have ties to and pray that you get something.

This kind of misinformation is what leads people to make horrible choices for their particular circumstances.

He's right, as a general rule. If your only concern is maximizing employment opportunities to pay down crippling debt upon graduation, Penn > Michigan.

This objection is along the lines of "but some people get biglaw out of TTT schools". It's a fucking pedantic and obvious distinction that doesn't need to be mentioned and it's just an opportunity for people to white knight their alma mater.

And being median or below puts you in a tough spot, though "likely out" is an exaggeration.

[rickgrimes69]

Penn is always a better choice than Michigan if the schools are anywhere near the same cost in tuition.

...

It means that if you are a median student at Penn, you are still competitive in NYC. However, if you are median at Michigan, you are likely out at all major markets (NYC, Chi, CA, DC) and will have to seek out secondary markets/markets that you have ties to and pray that you get something.

This kind of misinformation is what leads people to make horrible choices for their particular circumstances.

I don't agree that you're "likely out" at all major markets with median from Michigan. However, Penn v. Michigan at equal cost is an absolute no-brainer. Penn just places better, period. Unless you have some irrational hatred towards Philly, there's very few good reasons to choose Michigan over Penn.

[The Duck]

The amount of Penn trolling in this thread is amazing. This isn't Penn v. Cooley. Penn/Michigan are peer schools. Penn is a great school but it isn't always the right choice, nor is it a no-brainer in most situations.

Stop being some damn paternalistic and assuming you know better what is right for others, or that everyone is in your situation. Not everyone is going to NY and not everyone wants to. This is your career and taking that view that going to NY is the absolute right option for everyone is asinine.

Let's examine some non-exclusive common situations in which Penn is not a no-brainer at the same cost:

1. Reasonable debt vs. reasonable debt and you don't want NY
2. You really don't want to live in NY.
3. You really want to go to a secondary market and only want NY as a backup option
4. You really want Chicago/LA/San Fran/DC and only want NY as a backup option
5. You visit both schools and feel more comfortable/connected to students at Michigan (way too many people underestimate the effect of this on your position in the curve).
6. Your SO cannot relocate during school and is much closer to AA than to Philly
7. You want PI (our LRAP is better)
8. You want a particular practice area not centered in NY (e.g. energy regulation -> TX/DC, Non-financial white collar -> DC)
9. Your SO cannot find a job in Philly
10. You dislike Philly and don't want to live there
11. You're not BigLaw or bust
12. You want BigLaw but want some modicum of QoL (even at my firm, which is known to be easier to work for in NY, the NY office averages like 400-500 hours more per year than the DC office). Feedback from friends at other firms demonstrate that this is pervasive.
13. Your SO cannot find a job in NY.

In any of these situations, attending Penn simply because it places better in NY is ludicrous. Do you really think that the total number of people in situation 1-13 is not significant enough to destroy the arguement that Penn is a no-brainer even in most situations? Let alone that it is always the right choice? How many people do you really think don't care at all where they live?

Nor does Penn place better if you want to go to secondary markets, want the option of targeting multiple big markets, one market takes a particular hit to its underlying business one year, etc.

I'm not trolling for Michigan here. Both schools are great. Stop spreading so much misinformation. For some people, one is the correct choice. For others, both are great choices and one isn't inherently better.

[Aberzombie1892]

Let's examine some non-exclusive common situations in which Penn is not a no-brainer at the same cost:

1. Reasonable debt vs. reasonable debt and you don't want NY
If someone goes through the trouble of pursuing big law from a T14, it would be reckless to not target the NYC market - it's the largest big law market in the US.
2. You really don't want to live in NY.
See above.
3. You really want to go to a secondary market and only want NY as a backup option
Michigan is fine if you want a secondary market and have ties there, but it's laughable to say that NY is a backup for Michigan students.
4. You really want Chicago/LA/San Fran/DC and only want NY as a backup option
You better have ties to those places and great grades if your coming from Michigan. See above on NY being a backup for Michigan.
5. You visit both schools and feel more comfortable/connected to students at Michigan (way too many people underestimate the effect of this on your position in the curve).
The funny thing is, available data shows that a student could be bottom quarter at Penn could still have a shot at NLJ firms. So even if they performed worse at Penn, they could still be competitive for a good job.
6. Your SO cannot relocate during school and is much closer to AA than to Philly
Ask your SO if they would rather you be making ~$80K or less (not big law) or ~$130K or more (big law). Then choose between Michigan and Penn, respectively.
7. You want PI (our LRAP is better)
I'm not familiar with LRAPS. I guess you'll need it since you probably aren't getting big law from Michigan.
8. You want a particular practice area not centered in NY (e.g. energy regulation -> TX/DC, Non-financial white collar -> DC)
Are you saying that Michigan is stronger than Penn in other markets? No data that I have seen indicates this.
9. Your SO cannot find a job in Philly
Ask you SO how bad do they want your investment in law school to pay off.
10. You dislike Philly and don't want to live there
3 years is neither a long time, nor a reason not to go to a superior school.
11. You're not BigLaw or bust
Then you probably shouldn't go to a T14, unless it's HYS.
12. You want BigLaw but want some modicum of QoL (even at my firm, which is known to be easier to work for in NY, the NY office averages like 400-500 hours more per year than the DC office). Feedback from friends at other firms demonstrate that this is pervasive.
Would you rather have a big law job and work an additional 500 hours or not have a big law job? Those are the likely outcomes at Penn and Michigan, respectively.
13. Your SO cannot find a job in NY.
If your SO cannot find a job in NY, I don't know what to say.

Don't get me wrong - Michigan is one of the finest law schools in the world. The issue is, Penn, at similar cost, is always the better choice in terms of career/job placement.

[mr.hands]

Let's examine some non-exclusive common situations in which Penn is not a no-brainer at the same cost:

1. Reasonable debt vs. reasonable debt and you don't want NY
If someone goes through the trouble of pursuing big law from a T14, it would be reckless to not target the NYC market - it's the largest big law market in the US.
2. You really don't want to live in NY.
See above.
3. You really want to go to a secondary market and only want NY as a backup option
Michigan is fine if you want a secondary market and have ties there, but it's laughable to say that NY is a backup for Michigan students.
4. You really want Chicago/LA/San Fran/DC and only want NY as a backup option
You better have ties to those places and great grades if your coming from Michigan. See above on NY being a backup for Michigan.
5. You visit both schools and feel more comfortable/connected to students at Michigan (way too many people underestimate the effect of this on your position in the curve).
The funny thing is, available data shows that a student could be bottom quarter at Penn could still have a shot at NLJ firms. So even if they performed worse at Penn, they could still be competitive for a good job.
6. Your SO cannot relocate during school and is much closer to AA than to Philly
Ask your SO if they would rather you be making ~$80K or less (not big law) or ~$130K or more (big law). Then choose between Michigan and Penn, respectively.
7. You want PI (our LRAP is better)
I'm not familiar with LRAPS. I guess you'll need it since you probably aren't getting big law from Michigan.
8. You want a particular practice area not centered in NY (e.g. energy regulation -> TX/DC, Non-financial white collar -> DC)
Are you saying that Michigan is stronger than Penn in other markets? No data that I have seen indicates this.
9. Your SO cannot find a job in Philly
Ask you SO how bad do they want your investment in law school to pay off.
10. You dislike Philly and don't want to live there
3 years is neither a long time, nor a reason not to go to a superior school.
11. You're not BigLaw or bust
Then you probably shouldn't go to a T14, unless it's HYS.
12. You want BigLaw but want some modicum of QoL (even at my firm, which is known to be easier to work for in NY, the NY office averages like 400-500 hours more per year than the DC office). Feedback from friends at other firms demonstrate that this is pervasive.
Would you rather have a big law job and work an additional 500 hours or not have a big law job? Those are the likely outcomes at Penn and Michigan, respectively.
13. Your SO cannot find a job in NY.
If your SO cannot find a job in NY, I don't know what to say.

Are you serious? Is this real?

[The Duck]

Let's examine some non-exclusive common situations in which Penn is not a no-brainer at the same cost:

1. Reasonable debt vs. reasonable debt and you don't want NY
If someone goes through the trouble of pursuing big law from a T14, it would be reckless to not target the NYC market - it's the largest big law market in the US.
2. You really don't want to live in NY.
See above.
3. You really want to go to a secondary market and only want NY as a backup option
Michigan is fine if you want a secondary market and have ties there, but it's laughable to say that NY is a backup for Michigan students.
4. You really want Chicago/LA/San Fran/DC and only want NY as a backup option
You better have ties to those places and great grades if your coming from Michigan. See above on NY being a backup for Michigan.
5. You visit both schools and feel more comfortable/connected to students at Michigan (way too many people underestimate the effect of this on your position in the curve).
The funny thing is, available data shows that a student could be bottom quarter at Penn could still have a shot at NLJ firms. So even if they performed worse at Penn, they could still be competitive for a good job.
6. Your SO cannot relocate during school and is much closer to AA than to Philly
Ask your SO if they would rather you be making ~$80K or less (not big law) or ~$130K or more (big law). Then choose between Michigan and Penn, respectively.
7. You want PI (our LRAP is better)
I'm not familiar with LRAPS. I guess you'll need it since you probably aren't getting big law from Michigan.
8. You want a particular practice area not centered in NY (e.g. energy regulation -> TX/DC, Non-financial white collar -> DC)
Are you saying that Michigan is stronger than Penn in other markets? No data that I have seen indicates this.
9. Your SO cannot find a job in Philly
Ask you SO how bad do they want your investment in law school to pay off.
10. You dislike Philly and don't want to live there
3 years is neither a long time, nor a reason not to go to a superior school.
11. You're not BigLaw or bust
Then you probably shouldn't go to a T14, unless it's HYS.
12. You want BigLaw but want some modicum of QoL (even at my firm, which is known to be easier to work for in NY, the NY office averages like 400-500 hours more per year than the DC office). Feedback from friends at other firms demonstrate that this is pervasive.
Would you rather have a big law job and work an additional 500 hours or not have a big law job? Those are the likely outcomes at Penn and Michigan, respectively.
13. Your SO cannot find a job in NY.
If your SO cannot find a job in NY, I don't know what to say.

Don't get me wrong - Michigan is one of the finest law schools in the world. The issue is, Penn, at similar cost, is always the better choice in terms of career/job placement.

Are you fucking kidding me? You're going to Tulane and want to lecture on the recklessness of not targeting NYC from a T14?

Awww, did you get rejected at Michigan and that's what is driving the trolling?

[Aberzombie1892]

Indeed it is. It's really not that complicated (in response to Mr. hands).

The Duck, why does this bother you so much? No one is saying Michigan sucks balls. We are just saying that Penn>Michigan at anywhere near equal cost. Any unbiased person would agree.

[The Duck]

Indeed it is. It's really not that complicated.

The Duck, why does this bother you so much? No one is saying Michigan sucks balls. We are just saying that Penn>Michigan at anywhere near equal cost. Any unbiased person would agree.

No they wouldn't. That's my point. For some situations, sure. But not for every situation and so your argument is fundamentally flawed.

It bothers me because some poor 0L is going to find this thread and rely upon your shitty advice when Penn is not the right choice for their situation.

[Aberzombie1892]

Indeed it is. It's really not that complicated.

The Duck, why does this bother you so much? No one is saying Michigan sucks balls. We are just saying that Penn>Michigan at anywhere near equal cost. Any unbiased person would agree.

No they wouldn't. That's my point. For some situations, sure. But not for every situation and so your argument is fundamentally flawed.

I cannot think of any within the realm of employment, and honestly, that is pretty much all that matters at this level.