Is Any Optimism Justified?

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

How does your class ranking in law school compare to your incoming LSAT/GPA percentile?

Higher
24
42%
About the same
21
37%
Lower
12
21%
 
Total votes: 57

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fatduck
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Re: Is Any Optimism Justified?

Postby fatduck » Sun Aug 19, 2012 2:57 pm

even assuming you can get an honest "law school readiness" assessment out of yourself, which is generous, you can't possibly find this information out about your classmates. sure, you can make a prediction, but if your confidence in your prediction is overwhelmed by random chance, i wouldn't suggest relying on it to make decisions like which school to attend.

Hutz_and_Goodman
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Re: Is Any Optimism Justified?

Postby Hutz_and_Goodman » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:00 pm

manbear wrote:
fatduck wrote:"just because you can't predict it" means you can't predict it, bro, it doesn't mean it's completely unpredictable. i'm sure if you had enough data on the various attributes of the entering class you could make a decent guess as to where people would shake out in class rank, but you don't have that data, do you?


This is a passive and self-defeating sentiment. I'm aware that I don't have enough data. I'm trying to get more! I'm sure I won't be able to predict my success perfectly; I'm only trying to make a better prediction than I would be able to if I did nothing.

It is nonsensical to say that something is predictable but nobody can actually perform that prediction. I may only be able to make a weak prediction but I'll take what I can get... I don't understand why you are so defeatist about this idea.


Man bear every school has at least one full ride scholarship and many have more than one. At my school there are two in each class so I collected data by seeing how the recipients had done in the last few years. I also researched how those who received another full scholarship (also named) had done. I think this is virtually all that one can do. I created a thread on TLS to collect data from top scholarship students and I hope people will continue to contribute.

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L’Étranger
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Re: Is Any Optimism Justified?

Postby L’Étranger » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:05 pm

manbear wrote:Thanks everyone, these answers have been helpful. After graduating from Dartmouth for undergrad and seeing many of my classmates struggle to find employment, I'm wary of paying big money to go a prestigious school. Perhaps prestige matters more in the legal profession, but my experiences at Dartmouth have made me interested in going to a lesser school where I will (hopefully) have a better chance of standing out from the crowd. I'm trying to figure how realistic this hope is.

I think the advice that nobody should go a law school where they would find median grades unacceptable is excellent. The caveat for me is that I'm not sure which is more unacceptable: median grades, considerable debt, and OK job prospects at a prestigious school, or median grades, no debt, and weak job prospects at a lesser school. I'm not particularly interested in biglaw; in fact, I'd like to go a more regional school specifically so I don't have to compete with the hordes of smart, motivated people trying to work in NYC and DC. I'd be much more happy with a modest job in a smaller city and no pressure to pay back loans. I'm not sure how realistic that is, but I don't think it's any less realistic than gunning for biglaw.

An expected value analysis is difficult for me because I have no idea what my employment prospects really are. Un-stipulated scholarships are attractive to me because the reduction in tuition is a certainty. Honestly I can't imagine taking out 6 figures of debt unless a high-paying job is a given, and this doesn't seem to be the case. I know everyone thinks that he or she will do well in law school, and of course doesn't, but the thought of lots of debt and no job sends considerably more chills down my spine than the thought of no debt and no job, even if the 2nd scenario is more probable.


In this post you summed up what many of us who went to law school in the past 3 years have gone through. Your reasoning is sound. The situation sucks.

manbear
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Re: Is Any Optimism Justified?

Postby manbear » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:25 pm

spleenworship wrote:Is it realistic for you to interview each of your potential classmates, measure their typing speed, have a professor go over their answers to sample hypos, and put them through stress tests to find out their breaking point?

No?

Well then this isn't really very predictable for you, is it?


Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. I'm only asking how I can reasonably make the best possible prediction. You seem to assume that I'm looking for a more clear-cut answer than I really am.

LSAT / GPA provide a rough proxy for a stress test, assuming that people tried in college and on the LSAT. I could easily interview a random sample of people by going up to them and having a conversation about law, about the school, etc. Or by making phone calls and sending emails. Hutz and Goodman mentioned doing this himself. This project is difficult but not clearly impossible.
Last edited by manbear on Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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spleenworship
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Re: Is Any Optimism Justified?

Postby spleenworship » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:30 pm

manbear wrote:
spleenworship wrote:Is it realistic for you to interview each of your potential classmates, measure their typing speed, have a professor go over their answers to sample hypos, and put them through stress tests to find out their breaking point?

No?

Well then this isn't really very predictable for you, is it?


Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. I'm only asking how I can reasonably make the best possible prediction. You seem to assume that I'm looking for a more clear-cut answer than I really am.

LSAT / GPA provide a rough proxy for a stress test, assuming that people tried in college and on the LSAT. I could easily interview a random sample of people by going up to them and having a conversation about law, about the school, etc. This project seems difficult but not clearly impossible.



Gotta love TLS. Multiple 1-3Ls and some 0Ls all say the same thing, that this isn't realistic and is a waste of time and OP should be looking at trying different tactics to make a decision.... and OP is ignoring us and going to do his/her own thing anyway.

Done with this thread. Good luck, OP, but just go T14 if you actually want to be an attorney, or do something else and stop this silly attempt to predict the largely unpredictable, IMO.

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fatduck
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Re: Is Any Optimism Justified?

Postby fatduck » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:32 pm

if you're just making predictions in a vacuum, write a paper, dude. in the real world, your prediction only matters to the extent that it can inform your decisionmaking. we're saying it can't in any meaningful sense.

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JCFindley
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Re: Is Any Optimism Justified?

Postby JCFindley » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:37 pm

manbear wrote:
spleenworship wrote:Is it realistic for you to interview each of your potential classmates, measure their typing speed, have a professor go over their answers to sample hypos, and put them through stress tests to find out their breaking point?

No?

Well then this isn't really very predictable for you, is it?


Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. I'm only asking how I can reasonably make the best possible prediction. You seem to assume that I'm looking for a more clear-cut answer than I really am.

LSAT / GPA provide a rough proxy for a stress test, assuming that people tried in college and on the LSAT. I could easily interview a random sample of people by going up to them and having a conversation about law, about the school, etc. Or by making phone calls and sending emails. Hurtz and Goodman mentioned doing this himself. This project is difficult but not clearly impossible.


When it comes down to it, you can only do what you can do. Human nature says some of the people that go to your LS will not try all that hard no matter what they said before hand. Some people will follow the crowd and be middle of the pack and some will naturally get it and be at the top not doing anything extra. Some will bust their butts and spend every waking moment on LS but still not get it. Some, will either study and work hard or better yet, work hard AND work smart and be at the top of their class.

You only have control over YOU. If YOU put in the effort and do it smartly, then you have a good shot at being towards the top because human nature says others will not.

Strictly opinion on my part, YMMV.

Hutz_and_Goodman
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Re: Is Any Optimism Justified?

Postby Hutz_and_Goodman » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:57 pm

spleenworship wrote:
manbear wrote:
spleenworship wrote:Is it realistic for you to interview each of your potential classmates, measure their typing speed, have a professor go over their answers to sample hypos, and put them through stress tests to find out their breaking point?

No?

Well then this isn't really very predictable for you, is it?


Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. I'm only asking how I can reasonably make the best possible prediction. You seem to assume that I'm looking for a more clear-cut answer than I really am.

LSAT / GPA provide a rough proxy for a stress test, assuming that people tried in college and on the LSAT. I could easily interview a random sample of people by going up to them and having a conversation about law, about the school, etc. This project seems difficult but not clearly impossible.


Gotta love TLS. Multiple 1-3Ls and some 0Ls all say the same thing, that this isn't realistic and is a waste of time and OP should be looking at trying different tactics to make a decision.... and OP is ignoring us and going to do his/her own thing anyway.

Done with this thread. Good luck, OP, but just go T14 if you actually want to be an attorney, or do something else and stop this silly attempt to predict the largely unpredictable, IMO.


There are at least half a dozen people in this thread saying that above 75th percentile for GPA/LSAT you have a better than 1/2 chance of top 50%, better than 1/4 chance of top 25%, etc. Basically if you're attending school for free where others are paying sticker or half, yes you should have reason to believe you will do better than them. It doesn't mean you actually will, but the odds are in your favor. This is analogous to saying if you took the class of 2015 at Harvard and enrolled them in Boston College law school with a full scholarship how would they do versus the regular admits to BC? The answer is that for any specific individual its unclear, but as a whole the Harvard transplant students would outperform the regular BC admits because all the markers indicate they are likely to do so (higher GPA/LSAT etc). When you are someone admitted to the T14 and you attend a T1 with full scholarship, this is the situation that you are essentially in.

In terms of quantifying the likelihood of different outcomes, yes it is possible though imperfect. If you look at every school ranked 20-50, look at job outcomes for class of 2009-2012, and track people who attended and graduated with a full ride scholarship or something more prestigious (full ride + stipend/books/etc) you would find a disproportionate amount of them currently have big law or prestigious PI relative to their classmates.

What would the percentage be? I don't know. I would guess that it's somewhere in the range of 30-60%. I'm a current 1L and I know that for my school there's an overwhelming number of full ride or better people in either big law or prestigious PI, but it's a small sample size and there are various factors at work (the region of the school, for instance).

manbear
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Re: Is Any Optimism Justified?

Postby manbear » Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:14 pm

spleenworship wrote:Gotta love TLS. Multiple 1-3Ls and some 0Ls all say the same thing, that this isn't realistic and is a waste of time and OP should be looking at trying different tactics to make a decision.... and OP is ignoring us and going to do his/her own thing anyway.

Done with this thread. Good luck, OP, but just go T14 if you actually want to be an attorney, or do something else and stop this silly attempt to predict the largely unpredictable, IMO.



This cracks me up. No disrespect to this forum intended, but I have no idea if there are any real law students here or if you are all a bunch of trolls typing with your toes, considering that this the internet. Claiming to be the voice of experience is not productive. You are essentially telling me that I should heed your herd mentality. The entire question here is about breaking away from the herd. I don't imagine that many who take the opinions of TLS as sacrosanct will be at the top of the class...

I certainly do trust my gut and I plan on making my own decision. I know plenty of newbs make posts asking people to do their thinking for them; I'm not one of them. I'm merely throwing questions out there to see what answers I get. Some answers have been helpful and some have not.

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paratactical
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Re: Is Any Optimism Justified?

Postby paratactical » Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:04 pm

Manbear, I get what you're trying to figure out, but it's not possible with these generalities. Once you have applied and have actual schools and schollys to compare, you might be able to come up with some very rough, very simplistic, not incredibly foolproof guesses. This question is, at best, half impossible to answer and only moreso when it's so abstract. Just look at how close the 25-75 numbers are for many schools. Do you really think there is a huge difference in intellect and capability between a 169 and a 164?

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Re: Is Any Optimism Justified?

Postby HeavenWood » Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:15 pm

paratactical wrote:Manbear, I get what you're trying to figure out, but it's not possible with these generalities. Once you have applied and have actual schools and schollys to compare, you might be able to come up with some very rough, very simplistic, not incredibly foolproof guesses. This question is, at best, half impossible to answer and only moreso when it's so abstract. Just look at how close the 25-75 numbers are for many schools. Do you really think there is a huge difference in intellect and capability between a 169 and a 164?

Only if he scores a 169 or higher.

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quiver
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Re: Is Any Optimism Justified?

Postby quiver » Sun Aug 19, 2012 8:23 pm

OP, check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7_xHsce57c

The relevant section for you is minutes 15-24. Watch that whole section though.

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hichvichwoh
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Re: Is Any Optimism Justified?

Postby hichvichwoh » Sun Aug 19, 2012 8:33 pm

I dunno guys, I just read this thread from start to finish and it sounds to me like manbear's simply a troll, especially if you take into account the language in his latest post.

In any case, the thread Hutz created seems way more useful

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Re: Is Any Optimism Justified?

Postby Hutz_and_Goodman » Sun Aug 19, 2012 8:47 pm

quiver wrote:OP, check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7_xHsce57c

The relevant section for you is minutes 15-24. Watch that whole section though.


This is worth watching in my opinion. The cliff notes: there is a solid correlation between LSAT and law school grades, but for many schools there is a small relationship (about 16%) due to "range restriction." So for instance if you're at U Maryland and the median is 162 and the 25th percentile is 160 and the 75th percentile is 165 (these numbers are not exact), then basically the whole class is within a few questions of each other so there if one is 75th percentile that person doesn't have a strong reason for believe they will beat out all the 160-164 people.

What I'm suggesting is that if you get a 170 and attend U Maryland after getting in to Duke, Georgetown, Cornell (let's say), you are far enough away from the cluster of LSAT scores that the range restriction issue is heavily reduced. If you add to that someone who is above the 75th percentile in GPA, and the correlation between your GPA/LSAT and law school grades will be considerably higher than 16%.

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spleenworship
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Re: Is Any Optimism Justified?

Postby spleenworship » Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:42 pm

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote: I'm a current 1L and I know that for my school there's an overwhelming number of full ride or better people in either big law or prestigious PI, but it's a small sample size and there are various factors at work (the region of the school, for instance).


So you've been there a week or two and are making assumptions based on anecdotal evidence. Copy that.


manbear wrote:
This cracks me up. No disrespect to this forum intended, but I have no idea if there are any real law students here or if you are all a bunch of trolls typing with your toes, considering that this the internet.


Then why'd you ask for our opinions? Don't resort to ad hominems just because you don't like our advice. I know most of the posters here. At least one is HYS, I'm a 2L at a T2, another is an expert on law school admissions from her time on the board, and I'm pretty certain JC makes Rambo look like a pussy, which isn't really helpful for giving advice re: law school per se, but I have taken and will take his advice. Also, JC might be a 2L actually. I forget.


ETA: oh, and quiver is an effing law school gawd. Ignoring him is retarded.

ETAx2: another poster above you is at a T14. The list would probably go on, but I'm getting bored.

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Re: Is Any Optimism Justified?

Postby manbear » Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:59 pm

paratactical wrote:Manbear, I get what you're trying to figure out, but it's not possible with these generalities. Once you have applied and have actual schools and schollys to compare, you might be able to come up with some very rough, very simplistic, not incredibly foolproof guesses. This question is, at best, half impossible to answer and only moreso when it's so abstract. Just look at how close the 25-75 numbers are for many schools. Do you really think there is a huge difference in intellect and capability between a 169 and a 164?


This is certainly true, but I'm being vague and general because I haven't actually applied anywhere yet. I have some schools in mind, but I'm also trying to figure out what my strategy should be. I honestly like the idea of going to the best school that gives me a full ride and I don't care much for prestige, but I want to make sure I don't go too low.

My original question doesn't have much to do with the difference between a 164 and a 169. I'm asking about being substantially above the 75% (such that the range effects described by Alex Johnson don't apply as much). Of course there are exceptions, but I suspect there is generally a noticeable difference in intellect between, say, a 161 and a 173 (see below).

I've repeated this many times, but again, I'm not trying to make foolproof guesses. I'm just trying to make better guesses.

One specific option that I like is a full ride at the University of Pittsburgh. I can't be too confident but I think this is easily feasible with my numbers. The 25%-75% LSAT range there is 157-161. I got a 173, I'd love to live and work in Pittsburgh for the rest of my life, and I think I have a pretty solid shot of kicking ass there, considering the competition. What do you think? Would I be lucky to get a job in Pittsburgh even if I were in the top 10% of my class? Am I retarded to think I have a solid (not a precise quantity, I know) chance of being in the top 10% in my graduating class? Scattergrams on lawschoolnumbers show almost no people with a 170+, but I don't know who reports their numbers to that site...
Last edited by manbear on Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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hichvichwoh
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Re: Is Any Optimism Justified?

Postby hichvichwoh » Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:05 pm

manbear wrote:
paratactical wrote:Manbear, I get what you're trying to figure out, but it's not possible with these generalities. Once you have applied and have actual schools and schollys to compare, you might be able to come up with some very rough, very simplistic, not incredibly foolproof guesses. This question is, at best, half impossible to answer and only moreso when it's so abstract. Just look at how close the 25-75 numbers are for many schools. Do you really think there is a huge difference in intellect and capability between a 169 and a 164?


This is certainly true, but I'm being vague and general because I haven't actually applied anywhere yet. I have some schools in mind, but I'm also trying to figure out what my strategy should be. I honestly like the idea of going to the best school that gives me a full ride and I don't care much for prestige, but I want to make sure I don't go too low.

My original question doesn't have much to do with the difference between a 164 and a 169. I'm asking about being substantially above the 75% (such the range effects described by Alex Johnson don't apply as much). Of course there are exceptions, but I suspect there is generally a noticeable difference in intellect between, say, a 161 and a 173 (see below).

I've repeated this many times, but again, I'm not trying to make foolproof guesses. I'm just trying to make better guesses.

One specific option that I like is a full ride at the University of Pittsburgh. I can't be too confident but I think this is easily feasible with my numbers. The 25%-75% LSAT range there is 157-161. I got a 173, I'd love to live and work in Pittsburgh for the rest of my life, and I think I have a pretty solid shot of kicking ass there, considering the competition. What do you think? Would I be lucky to get a job in Pittsburgh even if I were in the top 10% of my class? Am I retarded to think I have a solid (not a precise quantity, I know) chance of being in the top 10% in my graduating class? Scattergrams on lawschoolnumbers show almost no people with a 170+, but I don't know who reports their numbers to that site...


I don't understand what you're looking for here...you seem to be pretty much ignoring everything anyone else is saying anyway.

If you're waiting for someone to say "Gee manbear, you are so smart, this plan is so original and awesome and you are awesome!!!!!" then you're going to be waiting for a while. The tradeoff between $$ and school ranking is very well known, and has been/is being talked to death in other threads, complete with stats. Please stop cluttering up the forums with another, more poorly worded version of the same question.

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Re: Is Any Optimism Justified?

Postby fatduck » Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:09 pm

OP, don't listen to these haters. with your 173, you're virtually guaranteed top 10% at Pitt. top 10% at Pitt isn't a guarantee of prestigious Pittlaw, but your superior intelligence will shine through at OCI and you should have no problems.

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Re: Is Any Optimism Justified?

Postby spleenworship » Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:11 pm

fatduck wrote:OP, don't listen to these haters. with your 173, you're virtually guaranteed top 10% at Pitt. top 10% at Pitt isn't a guarantee of prestigious Pittlaw, but your superior intelligence will shine through at OCI and you should have no problems.


+1

I was wrong. Instead, I'm going with what fatduck said.

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Re: Is Any Optimism Justified?

Postby manbear » Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:13 pm

spleenworship wrote:
Then why'd you ask for our opinions? Don't resort to ad hominems just because you don't like our advice. I know most of the posters here. At least one is HYS, I'm a 2L at a T2, another is an expert on law school admissions from her time on the board, and I'm pretty certain JC makes Rambo look like a pussy, which isn't really helpful for giving advice re: law school per se, but I have taken and will take his advice. Also, JC might be a 2L actually. I forget.


ETA: oh, and quiver is an effing law school gawd. Ignoring him is retarded.

ETAx2: another poster above you is at a T14. The list would probably go on, but I'm getting bored.


I said in my post that I've got helpful advice out of this thread. I certainly have. However, arguments from authority are not persuasive at all, especially when the "authority" (being a student at whatever law school) is unverifiable. The most helpful posts here have been the ones that are well thought out and explained, and that stand on their own without any pretenses of authority. Honestly, I've found the least helpful posts here to be rather dismissive.

I have not made any ad hominem attacks -- indeed, it's not even possible for me to make an ad hominem attack when the personal lives and details of everyone here are completely unknown to me.

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Re: Is Any Optimism Justified?

Postby JCFindley » Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:13 pm

I can't help but think of this whenever I read this thread, and I am so serial.

Image

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Re: Is Any Optimism Justified?

Postby manbear » Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:16 pm

hichvichwoh wrote:If you're waiting for someone to say "Gee manbear, you are so smart, this plan is so original and awesome and you are awesome!!!!!" then you're going to be waiting for a while. The tradeoff between $$ and school ranking is very well known, and has been/is being talked to death in other threads, complete with stats. Please stop cluttering up the forums with another, more poorly worded version of the same question.


You speak as if the fact that this question has been discussed in other threads means it's somehow resolved. It's very much an open question, so more discussion is useful. I'm not looking for any explicit validation, I just want to see what other people have to say. If I'm cluttering up the forums, then I'm sure a moderator will lock the thread or whatever. You don't need to need to post if you think this thread is dumb.

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Re: Is Any Optimism Justified?

Postby manbear » Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:17 pm

JCFindley wrote:I can't help but think of this whenever I read this thread, and I am so serial.

Image


LOLOL this is my namesake 100%

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spleenworship
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Re: Is Any Optimism Justified?

Postby spleenworship » Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:30 pm

manbear wrote:I said in my post that I've got helpful advice out of this thread. I certainly have. However, arguments from authority are not persuasive at all, especially when the "authority" (being a student at whatever law school) is unverifiable. The most helpful posts here have been the ones that are well thought out and explained, and that stand on their own without any pretenses of authority. Honestly, I've found the least helpful posts here to be rather dismissive.

I have not made any ad hominem attacks -- indeed, it's not even possible for me to make an ad hominem attack when the personal lives and details of everyone here are completely unknown to me.


Fine, you want well reasoned? Here:

While the LSAT does have some correlation to 1L grades, GPA a little, and LSAT + GPA a small but decent correlation, that's all they are: correlations. They are not causation. What various people have told you is true: you cannot accurately predict how you or any of your classmates (since there is a curve) will do 1L year. If you are above GPA and LSAT medians at a given school you are more likely to get above median or even top 10%. However, despite this correlation, there is no real guarantee that you will. There are many other factors: what was grade inflation like at your school, how well can you handle the unique stresses of law school that are different than those of UG, what parts of the LSAT were you good at, do you (and how many of your classmates) actually want to be a lawyer, how expensive is your apartment, how well do you do standing in front of a crowd and talking, how well do you extract the BLL from the crap in a case, which professors did you get, how do they grade, where is the curve set, how fast do you read, how fast do you type, what casebooks have your professors chosen, does the hot person sit across from you distracting you with their boobs/pecs, how well do you do on the one fricking day of the exam that determines your whole grade (were you sick, did you misread one word, did you do fine but someone else made a policy argument that made the prof super happy), etc? And really, it's mostly that one exam, that one exam that determines your whole future. Miss a question cuz you were in a rush? Welcome to below median, no job, and a shitton of debt.

So, back to correlation:

Let us say, hypothetically, that you have a 25% chance of being top 10% and getting a decent job graduating from Pitt because of your superior intellect. Fine. 25%.

Now, graduating from Penn gives you a 60% chance at median of big or midlaw (it might be higher, I suppose). 60%.

Which one is better?

And all of the above? Pure effing guesswork. We don't know, we can't predict, we can only guess. So... we tell you to go T14 to maximize your chances. Because frankly, IMO, you probably only have a 10% chance of being top 10% no matter what your LSAT score is because after years of reading these boards and a year of being in law school I have seen, quite clearly, that while LSAT and GPA make a difference, it is only a small one. One of my class is top 10% despite being below the 25% on GPA and 50% on LSAT, one of my class is bottom third despite being above 75% GPA and median LSAT. It just doesn't matter.


JCFindley wrote:I can't help but think of this whenever I read this thread, and I am so serial.

Image



ME TOO!!! AWESOME!!

Mal Reynolds
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Re: Is Any Optimism Justified?

Postby Mal Reynolds » Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:40 pm

manbear wrote:This cracks me up. No disrespect to this forum intended, but I have no idea if there are any real law students here or if you are all a bunch of trolls typing with your toes, considering that this the internet.


manbear wrote:However, arguments from authority are not persuasive at all, especially when the "authority" (being a student at whatever law school) is unverifiable. The most helpful posts here have been the ones that are well thought out and explained, and that stand on their own without any pretenses of authority. Honestly, I've found the least helpful posts here to be rather dismissive.


Manbear:

(derides the authority of the posters ITT)

(derides arguments from authority in next post)




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