a

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

a

a
33
75%
b
11
25%
 
Total votes: 44

sprocket
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Re: Penn vs. UVA

Postby sprocket » Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:04 pm

abccc wrote:
InGoodFaith wrote:
abccc wrote:Do you think I should even consider the JD/MBA aspect in my decision, or is that too far off considering I haven't been accepted to either yet?

abccc wrote:JD/MBA ... I haven't been accepted to either yet

abccc wrote:haven't been accepted to either


So I take it you are telling me NOT to consider the MBA aspect of the equation when making my decision?



He meant that your statements implied that you had been accepted into neither a JD nor MBA program.



Hey, maybe I really am Ivy league smart... :lol:

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20130312
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Re: Penn vs. UVA

Postby 20130312 » Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:13 pm

sprocket wrote:He meant that your statements implied that you had been accepted into neither a JD nor MBA program.


Image

r6_philly
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Re: Penn vs. UVA

Postby r6_philly » Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:46 pm

Cavalier wrote:I wouldn't go to Penn. Their reputation has been substantially damaged from the Sandusky scandal.


I wouldn't go to UVA due the high likelihood of falling prey to on campus mass shootings.

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top30man
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Re: Penn vs. UVA

Postby top30man » Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:03 am

At any rate OP come back with real options.

HeavenWood
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Re: Penn vs. UVA

Postby HeavenWood » Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:51 am

BruceWayne wrote:3.1 at UVA or Penn, yeah NYC biglaw probably isn't happening. That's when you'e in big trouble for NYC regardless.

While 3.1 isn't the best place to be, you're definitely not shut out of NYC biglaw coming from Penn with that GPA.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Penn vs. UVA

Postby BruceWayne » Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:46 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:Bruce, I'm sure that there are scores of non-NLJ corporate firms in NYC that would kill for a Penn grad. I'm also sure that there are many non-NLJ corporate firms in Atlanta that would kill for a UVA grad. The difference between the schools is that Penn feeds into a dramatically larger market than UVA in terms of both NLJ and non-NLJ firms, and this is reflected in Penn's historical placement. Given that NYC doesn't care about ties, the op could likely easily attain a firm of 25+ attorneys in NYC from Penn. UVA, on the other hand, exists in a region that demands ties for both NLJ and non-NLJ firms. As such, the op maximizes his/her opportunities by choosing Penn.

No one is disputing that bad grades will sink someone. But, any current 2L, 3L, or recent grad would much rather have a 3.2 at Penn while looking for a job in NYC versus having a 3.2 at UVA looking at comparatively small cities in the south. Have you seen rayiner's underemployment thread?


The problem with the bolded is that 3.2 Penn and 3.2 UVA will be the same for NYC firms, but UVA will put the person from the South in a good position for interviewing with Southern firms (in places like Birmingham, Charlotte, Florida, Nashville etc. and small non nlj firms in Atlanta). Penn's advantage is going to come into play for people above the median in regards to NYC biglaw over UVA. Those big V10's like Penn and will give more leeway to above median at Penn as opposed to UVA (i.e they might hire a top 40 percent Penn but not that same ranking at UVA). But once GPAs get below the median they aren't taking you from either of these schools. And the reality is that there aren't "scores of non NLJ corporate firms" in NYC that would kill for a Penn grad. ITE any firm paying a substantial salary in a major city can easily get Penn, NYU, Duke, UVA, NU etc. grads. Things are that bad. And honestly there aren't really many non nlj Atlanta firms dying for UVA grads either. Things just aren't like that anymore.

HeavenWood
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Re: Penn vs. UVA

Postby HeavenWood » Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:02 pm

^Median isn't really a bright line at Penn, especially because employers can't gather anything better than an approximate sense of where exactly that is.

Looking at grade distributions/symplicity-posted floors, there are a decent (though not large) number of NYC firms that will seriously consider Penn students below a 3.2.

I'll let you know how I do when everything's said and done. ;)
Last edited by HeavenWood on Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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UtilityMonster
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Re: Penn vs. UVA

Postby UtilityMonster » Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:42 pm

BruceWayne wrote:If you're from NYC or DC RUN don't walk to Penn over UVA.

If you're from the South RUN don't walk to UVA over Penn.

If you're not from any of these places go to the one that's least expensive.

ITE don't go to either with overly high expectations.


Not everyone wants to live where they grew up.

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20130312
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Re: Penn vs. UVA

Postby 20130312 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:23 pm

UtilityMonster wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:If you're from NYC or DC RUN don't walk to Penn over UVA.

If you're from the South RUN don't walk to UVA over Penn.

If you're not from any of these places go to the one that's least expensive.

ITE don't go to either with overly high expectations.


Not everyone wants to live where they grew up a job.

abccc
Posts: 42
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Re: Penn vs. UVA

Postby abccc » Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:28 pm

top30man wrote:At any rate OP come back with real options.


The law schools are real options.

The business schools are the only hypothetical in this equation.

Make sense? (sorry for being confusing in my earlier posts)

justicefishy
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Re: Penn vs. UVA

Postby justicefishy » Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:37 pm

In that case, I say go Penn. I was in the exact same situation (both at sticker). I wanted to live in a city for law school, was from DC, and wanted a good MBA too. Penn's NLJ numbers and good career placement pushed it over the top for me but Wharton helped too. I'll be starting in 2 weeks and am really looking forward to it. (there were other reasons; Philly ties, desire for NYC, lack of Southern ties, but the B-School aspect was big for me)

abccc
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Re: Penn vs. UVA

Postby abccc » Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:01 pm

justicefishy wrote:In that case, I say go Penn. I was in the exact same situation (both at sticker). I wanted to live in a city for law school, was from DC, and wanted a good MBA too. Penn's NLJ numbers and good career placement pushed it over the top for me but Wharton helped too. I'll be starting in 2 weeks and am really looking forward to it. (there were other reasons; Philly ties, desire for NYC, lack of Southern ties, but the B-School aspect was big for me)



Interesting -- thanks. Were you accepted to the MBA program before starting law school? Or did you choose Penn with the risk of not getting into Wharton?

justicefishy
Posts: 497
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Re: Penn vs. UVA

Postby justicefishy » Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:05 pm

abccc wrote:
justicefishy wrote:In that case, I say go Penn. I was in the exact same situation (both at sticker). I wanted to live in a city for law school, was from DC, and wanted a good MBA too. Penn's NLJ numbers and good career placement pushed it over the top for me but Wharton helped too. I'll be starting in 2 weeks and am really looking forward to it. (there were other reasons; Philly ties, desire for NYC, lack of Southern ties, but the B-School aspect was big for me)



Interesting -- thanks. Were you accepted to the MBA program before starting law school? Or did you choose Penn with the risk of not getting into Wharton?


The second. But it's also that even if I don't get in, I can still get a Wharton certificate and take a ton of classes there which is another major draw.

abccc
Posts: 42
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:12 pm

Re: Penn vs. UVA

Postby abccc » Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:07 pm

justicefishy wrote:
abccc wrote:
justicefishy wrote:In that case, I say go Penn. I was in the exact same situation (both at sticker). I wanted to live in a city for law school, was from DC, and wanted a good MBA too. Penn's NLJ numbers and good career placement pushed it over the top for me but Wharton helped too. I'll be starting in 2 weeks and am really looking forward to it. (there were other reasons; Philly ties, desire for NYC, lack of Southern ties, but the B-School aspect was big for me)



Interesting -- thanks. Were you accepted to the MBA program before starting law school? Or did you choose Penn with the risk of not getting into Wharton?


The second. But it's also that even if I don't get in, I can still get a Wharton certificate and take a ton of classes there which is another major draw.


great -- glad to get some input from someone in the same position. Appreciate it.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Penn vs. UVA

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:02 pm

BruceWayne wrote:The problem with the bolded is that 3.2 Penn and 3.2 UVA will be the same for NYC firms, but UVA will put the person from the South in a good position for interviewing with Southern firms (in places like Birmingham, Charlotte, Florida, Nashville etc. and small non nlj firms in Atlanta). Penn's advantage is going to come into play for people above the median in regards to NYC biglaw over UVA. Those big V10's like Penn and will give more leeway to above median at Penn as opposed to UVA (i.e they might hire a top 40 percent Penn but not that same ranking at UVA). But once GPAs get below the median they aren't taking you from either of these schools. And the reality is that there aren't "scores of non NLJ corporate firms" in NYC that would kill for a Penn grad. ITE any firm paying a substantial salary in a major city can easily get Penn, NYU, Duke, UVA, NU etc. grads. Things are that bad. And honestly there aren't really many non nlj Atlanta firms dying for UVA grads either. Things just aren't like that anymore.


I think the issue is you know how UVA is treated in NYC, and you are wrongly assuming that Penn is treated the same way there. Penn is an NYC feeder, and UVA is not. More specifically, the overwhelming majority of Penn's NLJ placement is in NYC, while less than 25% of UVA's NLJ placement is in NYC (given the percentage of the class that ends up in NYC). This translates to NYC firms conveying more interview/call back/employment offers, percent of the total class wise, to Penn students than to UVA students.

Why is that relevant? It's relevant in explaining why median Penn kids get NLJ firms in NYC and UVA students seem to not fare as well there.

It's difficult to explain the relevancy without comparing T14s with large local go-to markets (NY, CA, and IL) than those without them. As you may have noticed from the ABA employment summary reports, some T14s feed into one or two large markets (usually NY only or NY + either CA or IL) and then the remainder of their graduates spread out. Other T14s, in contrast, spread their students out from the gate and they don't really primarily feed into one or two large markets.
T14s that feed into one or two large markets enjoy significant benefits. First and foremost, there are a lot more opportunities in the large markets. Second, the largest local NLJ firms in these large markets allocate significant slots in the summer programs to the local school(s). Third, almost all of the midsize, smaller, and satellite local NLJ firms in these large markets anticipate hiring at least a few graduates from the local school(s). Fourth, due to the relatively high demand for graduates of schools that feed into these large markets, many NLJ firms in these large markets are willing to hire people with lower GPA's due to the competition for these students (and being faced with hiring students from "lesser" schools). There are other reasons, such as a alumni networks and call back allocations, but I'm not going into them here.
Those benefits above translate as to why many NYC firms will hire median and below kids from Penn while not hiring as low from UVA - Penn is feeder for NYC while UVA is not. That's not to say UVA is not an outstanding school; it's just not an NYC/CA/IL feeder. Further, UVA spreads its students out from the gate (which is fine), but that means that UVA does not really have a large local market in which its graduates are in high enough demand that their grades wouldn't matter that much (which forces a lot of the class to seek small secondary markets).

Does that make sense?




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