American vs Indiana vs Lewis & Clark need to decide tomorrow

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jamie3
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American vs Indiana vs Lewis & Clark need to decide tomorrow

Postby jamie3 » Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:09 am

Hi, I have this really hard decision to make tomorrow and not sure what decision to make.

I am currently in DC looking at the option of going to American University Washington College of Law, however, I believe this is a huge mistake, I am only here because the school promised me that it has a national status and reputation and I can find work anywhere in the nation.

However, I am not sure if the school is being honest, or truthful. I would like to state, though, that I am not really looking so much to get into big law as I am looking for a way to work as a lawyer in any state, and have the chance to go into any state and maybe find employment. I wonder, for instance, whether I can take my education in American University and go to Portland Oregon, or if I can say take Lewis and Clark's education, which is in Portland, Oregon and got to Washington DC, where American University is and find some employment.

Anyways I am currently in a strange situation in the process of selecting a school to go to.

I was selected in these three schools (American, Indiana, and Lewis and Clark) and reserve listed in Columbia University, which was my top choice. However, being a day or two before official registration I have to decide whether to stay in DC and choose American or run and go to Portland. Life circumstances prevent me from waiting another year!

I did enjoy my stay in Portland a lot, but I really wondered about the schools regional status. When I asked the school whether it was regional they said yes they were "west coast regional" but that if you needed to find work in a place like Georgia, that they would connect me with someone and I would find work that way.

However, American took a different stance with me. They reverberated that the school was national. With that status I found it hard to say no. However, I really now question what the school says. Also ever since I was official admitted, and submitted my registration form, the school has changed it's attitude towards me and started to treat me with threats of cancellation and financial aid cuts. They already only provide like 1,300 for housing alone, but little for anything else, forcing you to take it out of your housing budget. The problem is that DC is super expensive, so I have to rent out super ghetto housing just to make it. The school actually told me that their name American University WCL (Washington College of Law) stands for We Cater Lunch and that I should take food from events to take home to help save on finances. Anyways, I was thinking this can't be honestly happening.

Recently I was also selected in Indiana Maurer Bloomington College of Law and I wonder whether at this point I should consider it. Is this possibly better than American? It US News outranks it by several places. It's like 26 vs 49.

For the most part, I know the direction this conversation will take. I mean Columbia University told me I was highly qualified for their program. However, no word from them at this point, so I am going to have to make a decision to go to one of these schools (I was actually selected to several law schools this round but not all the ones I was interested in).

What I want to know is whether I should go to Lewis and Clark in Portland, Oregon over American and Indiana. Lewis and Clark so far has had the nicer of atmospheres and even called me up to congratulate me several times and to provide me with scholarships (something like $10,000 at this point) that I didn't have.

Anyways I am wondering whether I would be making a mistake by leaving DC to attend Lewis and Clark over American University, and possible Indiana who insists this year was the most competitive. I am also considering a similar jump to Cardozo if they answer me this week?

By the way, according to Law School Numbers .com American University, of these three choices, has the most law firms hiring at OCI and also is the most competitive to get in at 21% acceptance rate. I think Lewis and Clark and Indiana hover at around 35% acceptance rate.

So I have only considered DC because of these numbers but not sure if to stay here because of the way the school is treating me.

So is taking the hit in US news ranking a good idea? I will go from Tier 1 to Tier 2.

Thank you for your reply.



Edit: I forgot to mention, that I want to work in California once I am done studying but also want to consider Florida.

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ColoBoul
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Re: American vs Indiana vs Lewis & Clark need to decide tomorrow

Postby ColoBoul » Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:04 am

I must ask, are you an international student? Also what are your stats? I ask this because if you made the reserve list at Columbia and haven't heard anything from them since is kind of interesting. Additionally, NONE of these schools will help you leave their respected regions (or have over a 50% chance at getting a job in those regions). What would the cost be at each? Why didn't you apply to schools in Florida or California if you want to work there? I would say Indiana but that is without hearing the cost evaluations. But you must be aware that the schools you are considering are competing heavily in their regions (Lewis and Clark not so much) with other schools that are much higher regarded. But also again with Lewis and Clark you are competing with the kids from the Pacific northwest who want to move back home but went to schools like Berkeley, Stanford and other higher ranked truly "national" schools. I would also question your ability to succeed in the United States legal market if you don't improve your grammar and punctuation. All this goes out the window if you have some incredible connections that could help you get a job. Other than that I would either retake and reapply if Columbia truly put you on their reserve, or take which ever one is cheapest.

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flem
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Re: American vs Indiana vs Lewis & Clark need to decide tomorrow

Postby flem » Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:52 am

jamie3 wrote:I am currently in DC looking at the option of going to American University Washington College of Law, however, I believe this is a huge mistake, I am only here because the school promised me that it has a national status and reputation and I can find work anywhere in the nation.


LOL

jamie3 wrote:However, I am not sure if the school is being honest, or truthful. I would like to state, though, that I am not really looking so much to get into big law as I am looking for a way to work as a lawyer in any state, and have the chance to go into any state and maybe find employment. I wonder, for instance, whether I can take my education in American University and go to Portland Oregon, or if I can say take Lewis and Clark's education, which is in Portland, Oregon and got to Washington DC, where American University is and find some employment.


1) No, they are not being truthful. Additionally, only a third of grads are landing JD required employment, which makes American a terrible option. It's too far down the pecking order and has two better schools (Georgetown and GW) that pump out a collective 1200 grads a year in the same city.
2) No, these schools are incredibly regional. They place best in their respective areas, if you are lucky enough to get a job at all.

jamie3 wrote:I was selected in these three schools (American, Indiana, and Lewis and Clark) and reserve listed in Columbia University, which was my top choice. However, being a day or two before official registration I have to decide whether to stay in DC and choose American or run and go to Portland. Life circumstances prevent me from waiting another year!


1) Did you throw darts at a map to select these places? The only reason I ask is they are, once again, incredibly regional, so you don't want to go to them unless you want to work in that specific area.
2) What are your numbers? If you were waitlisted at Columbia don't you have something in the Vandy/USC/UCLA/UT range maybe?
3) What life circumstances? Are you international and your visa will expire or something? (Serious) Is there a gun to your head? (Not serious)

jamie3 wrote:I did enjoy my stay in Portland a lot, but I really wondered about the schools regional status. When I asked the school whether it was regional they said yes they were "west coast regional" but that if you needed to find work in a place like Georgia, that they would connect me with someone and I would find work that way.


Extremely regional, and whoever told you this was blowing smoke, but less so than American.

jamie3 wrote:However, American took a different stance with me. They reverberated that the school was national. With that status I found it hard to say no. However, I really now question what the school says. Also ever since I was official admitted, and submitted my registration form, the school has changed it's attitude towards me and started to treat me with threats of cancellation and financial aid cuts. They already only provide like 1,300 for housing alone, but little for anything else, forcing you to take it out of your housing budget. The problem is that DC is super expensive, so I have to rent out super ghetto housing just to make it. The school actually told me that their name American University WCL (Washington College of Law) stands for We Cater Lunch and that I should take food from events to take home to help save on finances. Anyways, I was thinking this can't be honestly happening.


LOL, American doesn't even place well REGIONALLY, let alone NATIONALLY. Additionally, they are super stingy with aid. The attitude they gave you should be a clear indicator you should tell them to take their generous "offer" and go fuck themselves sideways with it.

jamie3 wrote:Recently I was also selected in Indiana Maurer Bloomington College of Law and I wonder whether at this point I should consider it. Is this possibly better than American? It US News outranks it by several places. It's like 26 vs 49.


Honestly, feel free to ignore the rankings. It's better than American if you want to live in Indiana. Depending on your goals, it's a fine school. But if you want national mobility, it's not a good choice.

jamie3 wrote:For the most part, I know the direction this conversation will take. I mean Columbia University told me I was highly qualified for their program. However, no word from them at this point, so I am going to have to make a decision to go to one of these schools (I was actually selected to several law schools this round but not all the ones I was interested in).


1) What are your numbers?
2) Follow up with them now.
3) What are your other options?
4) What are your career goals?

jamie3 wrote:What I want to know is whether I should go to Lewis and Clark in Portland, Oregon over American and Indiana. Lewis and Clark so far has had the nicer of atmospheres and even called me up to congratulate me several times and to provide me with scholarships (something like $10,000 at this point) that I didn't have.


I mean, in a vacuum, I'd go to L&C over American because American is literally placing 35 fucking percent (LinkRemoved) of graduates into full time bar passage required employment. You have twice better odds of ending up NOT working as an attorney. Fortunately though, you're not in a vacuum and you don't HAVE to make this choice.

jamie3 wrote:Anyways I am wondering whether I would be making a mistake by leaving DC to attend Lewis and Clark over American University, and possible Indiana who insists this year was the most competitive. I am also considering a similar jump to Cardozo if they answer me this week?


Cardozo is alright for a reasonable price only if you want NYC. L&C isn't the kind of school worth uprooting your life for unless you want to settle in Oregon.

jamie3 wrote:By the way, according to Law School Numbers .com American University, of these three choices, has the most law firms hiring at OCI and also is the most competitive to get in at 21% acceptance rate. I think Lewis and Clark and Indiana hover at around 35% acceptance rate.


You likely won't get a job through OCI at any of these schools unless you're top 5-10%.

jamie3 wrote:So I have only considered DC because of these numbers but not sure if to stay here because of the way the school is treating me.

So is taking the hit in US news ranking a good idea? I will go from Tier 1 to Tier 2.


1) Don't go to American, if that isn't obvious by this point.
2) Once again, ignore the rankings.

jamie3 wrote:Thank you for your reply.


You're welcome!

jamie3 wrote:Edit: I forgot to mention, that I want to work in California once I am done studying but also want to consider Florida.


Then you need to go to a Cali school (preferably USC/UCLA/Boalt) or a Florida school (UF/FSU, I suppose) or a T14 school. These are all terribad options for this goal.

Good luck.

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specialsnowflake
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Re: American vs Indiana vs Lewis & Clark need to decide tomorrow

Postby specialsnowflake » Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:06 am

am I crazy for suspecting flame?

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Tom Joad
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Re: American vs Indiana vs Lewis & Clark need to decide tomorrow

Postby Tom Joad » Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:17 am

Do NOT give American any of your money.

DON'T go to law school this year. Do lots of reading and research and maybe retake the LSAT during the year.

OP, you were an idiot to almost go to a law school this unprepared but I feel sorry for you because lots of people make the same mistake.

If this is a flame, way too much effort, bro.

jamie3
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Re: American vs Indiana vs Lewis & Clark need to decide tomorrow

Postby jamie3 » Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:58 am

Thank you for the replies, I choice American because they promised me a job in California. However, I really hate this region and would really prefer to go to the west coast. However, if the school is really this regional I plan to leave tonight. Is lawschooltransparency really a trust worthy site?

I wonder since Lewis and Clark has a 45% employment score and 65.2% Oregon home market, while American has 35% employment score and a 69.2 home market (this is if you count Maryland, Virginia, and DC, the states which comprises DC).

Also Indiana has a higher number of 6.8% of people working in California, so I am considering it.

Also this isn't a flame, if you are suggesting I am flaming you. I am being very honest. I appreciate the help.
Last edited by jamie3 on Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

TLSwag
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Re: American vs Indiana vs Lewis & Clark need to decide tomorrow

Postby TLSwag » Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:00 am

155

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flem
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Re: American vs Indiana vs Lewis & Clark need to decide tomorrow

Postby flem » Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:02 am

jamie3 wrote:Thank you for the replies, I choice American because they promised me a job in California. However, I really hate this region and would really prefer to go to the west coast. However, if the school is really this regional I plan to leave tonight. Is lawschooltransparency really a trust worthy site?


1) they can "promise" whatever they want, but they can't guarantee legal jobs for 2/3rds of their graduating class
2) law school transparency is very trustworthy

jamie3 wrote:I wonder since Lewis and Clark has a 45% employment score and 65.2% Oregon home market, while American has 35% employment score and a 69.2 home market (this is if you count Maryland, Virginia, and DC, the states which comprises DC).

Also Indiana has a higher number of 6.8% of people working in California, so I am considering it.


I mean, you're assuming a lot here. 6.8% of the class could be from California with jobs lined up out there. Or they could all be at the top of their class and somehow got to LA. You really don't know. That's a negligible amount of people.

What are your numbers and why MUST you go this year?

jamie3
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Re: American vs Indiana vs Lewis & Clark need to decide tomorrow

Postby jamie3 » Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:09 am

It was mid 160s and 3.5+ gpa, I have a dying family member and I am doing it for them.

Do you think I can find work in California if I really tried from any of these schools?

I was told Lewis and Clark provides work in Northern California and Seattle but not much else. However, I would take San Fransisco.

American also told me I could find work in New York City.

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tedalbany
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Re: American vs Indiana vs Lewis & Clark need to decide tomorrow

Postby tedalbany » Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:14 am

So you're deciding between American, Indiana, and Lewis & Clark when you want to work in ... California ?


:|

Also, if you could make it to the Columbia waitlist is there no happy medium? Did you apply to the rest of the T-14? UCLA/USC? UC-Davis/Hastings at least?

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flem
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Re: American vs Indiana vs Lewis & Clark need to decide tomorrow

Postby flem » Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:23 am

jamie3 wrote:It was mid 160s and 3.5+ gpa, I have a dying family member and I am doing it for them.

Do you think I can find work in California if I really tried from any of these schools?

I was told Lewis and Clark provides work in Northern California and Seattle but not much else. However, I would take San Fransisco.

American also told me I could find work in New York City.


1) I understand the emotional aspect of this, but it's shortsighted.
2) It's not like it's impossible, but the odds are really stacked against you.
3) I mean, no. L&C places alright in Oregon. Seattle is going to be dominated by UW and T14 kids. Northern Cali has Stanford, Cal Berkeley (Boalt), UC Davis and UC Hastings all ahead of the pecking order of L&C.
4) LOL

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Nova
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Re: American vs Indiana vs Lewis & Clark need to decide tomorrow

Postby Nova » Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:28 am

jamie3 wrote:I have a dying family member and I am doing it for them.


Sorry, but that's irrational. Attending any of these schools with the intention of not staying in the area is a terrible idea.

Your best option overall is to retake/reapply to UCLA/USC & UC-D/H/I

jamie3
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Re: American vs Indiana vs Lewis & Clark need to decide tomorrow

Postby jamie3 » Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:35 am

flem wrote:
jamie3 wrote:It was mid 160s and 3.5+ gpa, I have a dying family member and I am doing it for them.

Do you think I can find work in California if I really tried from any of these schools?

I was told Lewis and Clark provides work in Northern California and Seattle but not much else. However, I would take San Fransisco.

American also told me I could find work in New York City.


1) I understand the emotional aspect of this, but it's shortsighted.
2) It's not like it's impossible, but the odds are really stacked against you.
3) I mean, no. L&C places alright in Oregon. Seattle is going to be dominated by UW and T14 kids. Northern Cali has Stanford, Cal Berkeley (Boalt), UC Davis and UC Hastings all ahead of the pecking order of L&C.
4) LOL



Thanks for this, I loved this post.

Anyways, I just wanted to say it's more than just a dying family member, it has more to do with finances and I am just trying to make sure I can get everyone what they need, and if I wait another year things will get worse.

Also I got waitlisted in Hastings. The admissions office at Hastings told me American was a really good school, so I have been stuck deciding on it, however, I think I will jump ship and go to Portland at this time.

Also I forgot to mention but I was selected at Chicago-Kent, and that sounded like a good school but I really don't want to be in Chicago my whole life. Anyways, finding housing at this time is near impossible so I think I will wrap up my decision in the next few hours and go to Portland unless I am forgetting something about DC and American University in general.

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Samara
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Re: American vs Indiana vs Lewis & Clark need to decide tomorrow

Postby Samara » Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:37 am

wut

In all seriousness, this decision can shape your entire legal career and be the difference between decades of great success and decades of great struggle. You have to make the decision that is best for yourself, which is to retake and reapply. Explain that it's the best decision, I'm sure they'll understand.

If, however, you refuse to do this, Indiana easily has the best national reputation and probably costs the least. (And maybe you could become an Indiana resident to get in-state tuition?) Finding employment in Indianapolis/Portland/DC will be challenging enough from those three schools; finding employment in California or Florida without ties will be extremely challenging. Indiana gives a shot, I suppose, but as you note, only 8% of the student body "works" in California and for all you know, they could all be working at Starbucks.

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Samara
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Re: American vs Indiana vs Lewis & Clark need to decide tomorrow

Postby Samara » Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:40 am

jamie3 wrote:Anyways, I just wanted to say it's more than just a dying family member, it has more to do with finances and I am just trying to make sure I can get everyone what they need, and if I wait another year things will get worse.

If you wait another year, you could get into a school that gives you much better long-term financial prospects or get a big scholarship to a California or Florida school. IU-B has given out huge scholarships to 167+ applicants and you only need to improve by a couple of points for that. The answer to financial pressure is not to take on over $200k of debt for poor employment prospects. The people that even do get employed from these schools often are making less than $50k.

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flem
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Re: American vs Indiana vs Lewis & Clark need to decide tomorrow

Postby flem » Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:43 am

What's your total cost of attendance (eg, debt load upon graduation?) a mid 160s/3.5 shouldn't be paying anywhere near sticker at L&C if you insist on going.

jamie3
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Re: American vs Indiana vs Lewis & Clark need to decide tomorrow

Postby jamie3 » Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:02 am

flem wrote:What's your total cost of attendance (eg, debt load upon graduation?) a mid 160s/3.5 shouldn't be paying anywhere near sticker at L&C if you insist on going.


I have about 30,000 in scholarships in total for Lewis and Clark, and each day I seem to receive new Scholarships.

I think I didn't get one in the beginning because I applied late, and as money became available I received some.

I really want to wait another year, but I know doing so will cost me more in the end.

I am considering Indiana, but finding housing with such short notice might prove difficult, and I am worried I will be in the middle of no where.

So cost of attendence in Portland will be below 200,000.

Over 200,000 in American.

And over 200,000 in Indiana.

American also gave me the worse financial aid, and are constantly trying to charge me for classes I thought would be covered, so survival here is difficult.

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flem
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Re: American vs Indiana vs Lewis & Clark need to decide tomorrow

Postby flem » Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:06 am

jamie3 wrote:So cost of attendence in Portland will be below 200,000.

Over 200,000 in American.

And over 200,000 in Indiana.

American also gave me the worse financial aid, and are constantly trying to charge me for classes I thought would be covered, so survival here is difficult.


Good lord. Wait, retake, don't go this year. You're going to literally be crippled by that debt load. That is a ton of money and you have a negligible shot as employment that will allow you to pay that back in a timely fashion.

Also, in light of this information:

jamie3 wrote:Anyways, I just wanted to say it's more than just a dying family member, it has more to do with finances and I am just trying to make sure I can get everyone what they need, and if I wait another year things will get worse.


It's none of my business, but how could things get "worse" if you are debt financing this endeavor?

Also, did you apply super late everywhere? You should have better options (or at the very least, cheaper).

jamie3
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Re: American vs Indiana vs Lewis & Clark need to decide tomorrow

Postby jamie3 » Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:12 am

flem wrote:
jamie3 wrote:So cost of attendence in Portland will be below 200,000.

Over 200,000 in American.

And over 200,000 in Indiana.

American also gave me the worse financial aid, and are constantly trying to charge me for classes I thought would be covered, so survival here is difficult.


Good lord. Wait, retake, don't go this year. You're going to literally be crippled by that debt load. That is a ton of money and you have a negligible shot as employment that will allow you to pay that back in a timely fashion.

Also, in light of this information:

jamie3 wrote:Anyways, I just wanted to say it's more than just a dying family member, it has more to do with finances and I am just trying to make sure I can get everyone what they need, and if I wait another year things will get worse.


It's none of my business, but how could things get "worse" if you are debt financing this endeavor?

Also, did you apply super late everywhere? You should have better options (or at the very least, cheaper).



Yes, I applied way late, I started applications in February, and most got mailed in March reaching into April.

I also missed my chances at applying into schools like Vandy.

I did have cheaper options, but they didn't seem like good schools. I got half-tuition at Depaul in Chicago, for example, and 1/3 tuition at Chicago-Kent, that would increase to near half-tuition at the end of my education.

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flem
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Re: American vs Indiana vs Lewis & Clark need to decide tomorrow

Postby flem » Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:13 am

jamie3 wrote:Yes, I applied way late, I started applications in February, and most got mailed in March reaching into April.

I also missed my chances at applying into schools like Vandy.

I did have cheaper options, but they didn't seem like good schools. I got half-tuition at Depaul in Chicago, for example, and 1/3 tuition at Chicago-Kent, that would increase to near half-tuition at the end of my education.


You're right, those are terrible options.

I mean, I understand your desire to go, but this is really financial suicide. If you applied early with the same stats you'd get a lot more money at these same places, if you retook you'd have much better options in general.

Sucks, breh.

RodneyBoonfield
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Re: American vs Indiana vs Lewis & Clark need to decide tomorrow

Postby RodneyBoonfield » Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:34 am

Retaking and reapplying will save you tons and tons of money. It will also drastically increase your quality of life and decrease your level of stress. Do yourself a favor, please.

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sambeber
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Re: American vs Indiana vs Lewis & Clark need to decide tomorrow

Postby sambeber » Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:40 am

jamie3 wrote: I really want to wait another year, but I know doing so will cost me more in the end.


Can you explain how you came to this conclusion? I think it's really going to cost you more in the end, from a big-picture perspective, to go this year.

jamie3
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Re: American vs Indiana vs Lewis & Clark need to decide tomorrow

Postby jamie3 » Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:42 am

RodneyBoonfield wrote:Retaking and reapplying will save you tons and tons of money. It will also drastically increase your quality of life and decrease your level of stress. Do yourself a favor, please.



Yes, I am very much taking this into consideration. I should be able to do much better this year on the LSAT, I have a less stressful life today then I did a year ago.

However, if I had to choose one of these schools would Lewis and Clark in Portland still be a better decision than American in DC?

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Nova
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Re: American vs Indiana vs Lewis & Clark need to decide tomorrow

Postby Nova » Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:43 am

jamie3 wrote: However, if I had to choose one of these schools would Lewis and Clark in Portland still be a better decision than American in DC?


Obviously.

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flem
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Re: American vs Indiana vs Lewis & Clark need to decide tomorrow

Postby flem » Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:44 am

jamie3 wrote:However, if I had to choose one of these schools would Lewis and Clark in Portland still be a better decision than American in DC?


It's all relatively. It's "better", sure, but not at your current cost. I'd want my debt at a school like L&C no greater than 60-70K total




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