Duke ($$) v. Northwestern ($) Updated!

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toddly76
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Re: Duke ($$) v. Northwestern ($) Updated!

Postby toddly76 » Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:20 pm

mr.hands wrote:
toddly76 wrote:
mr.hands wrote:
toddly76 wrote:So I spend all day convincing myself on Northwestern, and Duke emails me out of the blue to say their increasing their scholarship offer...AAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!1111!


To what?



From 72K to 90K. Not huge, but now its like a 70K difference (plus interest) between Duke and NU.


You'd be an idiot to choose northwestern here.



*sigh* ... I know, I know.

mr.hands
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Re: Duke ($$) v. Northwestern ($) Updated!

Postby mr.hands » Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:23 pm

Samara wrote:If OP already has $100k of debt coming in, isn't the prudent decision to take the school that maximizes biglaw placement, regardless of cost differential?


Since OP has 100k in debt and 45k from NU, he's basically paying sticker (285ish) plus 55k at Northwestern. 340k in debt 9 months after graduation is fucking insane.
Last edited by mr.hands on Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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rayiner
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Re: Duke ($$) v. Northwestern ($) Updated!

Postby rayiner » Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:24 pm

mr.hands wrote:
Samara wrote:If OP already has $100k of debt coming in, isn't the prudent decision to take the school that maximizes biglaw placement, regardless of cost differential?


Since OP has 100k in debt and 45k from NU, he's basically paying sticker (285ish) plus 55k at Northwestern. That's insane.


That's not how expected value calculations work.

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Samara
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Re: Duke ($$) v. Northwestern ($) Updated!

Postby Samara » Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:29 pm

mr.hands wrote:
Samara wrote:If OP already has $100k of debt coming in, isn't the prudent decision to take the school that maximizes biglaw placement, regardless of cost differential?


Since OP has 100k in debt and 45k from NU, he's basically paying sticker (285ish) plus 55k at Northwestern. 340k in debt 9 months after graduation is fucking insane.

Yeah, but isn't Duke still going to mean ~$250k? You still have to get biglaw to pay that down. And if the target market is Chicago (which is probably smart considering the COA of NYC and DC), wouldn't you want to take the school with much better Chicago biglaw prospects? Unless NU doesn't provide much advantage in Chicago over Duke, but I'm not certain that it's not a significant disadvantage at Duke for the Chicago market.

Caveat: I'm bad at math.

mr.hands
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Re: Duke ($$) v. Northwestern ($) Updated!

Postby mr.hands » Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:30 pm

rayiner wrote:
mr.hands wrote:
Samara wrote:If OP already has $100k of debt coming in, isn't the prudent decision to take the school that maximizes biglaw placement, regardless of cost differential?


Since OP has 100k in debt and 45k from NU, he's basically paying sticker (285ish) plus 55k at Northwestern. That's insane.


That's not how expected value calculations work.


No it isn't. In theory, he may owe more. I don't know the details of his other loans. It is a very rough guess though (designed to show how utterly crazy it'd be to choose NU here)

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rickgrimes69
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Re: Duke ($$) v. Northwestern ($) Updated!

Postby rickgrimes69 » Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:54 pm

OP this is is an obvious decision, and you know that. If you want to go against that because you like NU that much more, more power to you. But you're not going to get that choice validated on this forum.

chasgoose
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Re: Duke ($$) v. Northwestern ($) Updated!

Postby chasgoose » Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:05 pm

rickgrimes69 wrote:OP this is is an obvious decision, and you know that. If you want to go against that because you like NU that much more, more power to you. But you're not going to get that choice validated on this forum.


I still agree that Duke is TCR here, especially given the existing debt, but its not THAT obvious of a decision. The COA difference is $70k, NU's superior placement power in OP's target market is worth at least $25-30k if not more (yeah yeah Duke and NU are peers, but NU has an edge in Chicago and way more Chicago firms will come to NU OCI and have 1L networking opportunities than they will at Duke). I would say that in most cases depending on how strong the preference is, locational preference would also be worth $10-30k. Still Duke probably comes out ahead, but its not a totally clear decision.

WannabeBlueDevil
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Re: Duke ($$) v. Northwestern ($) Updated!

Postby WannabeBlueDevil » Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:11 pm

I know people at NU and Duke, and am at Duke now. I genuinely think Duke is a no-brainer over NU in your situation, unless you want to live and work in Chicago.

Short of that. Duke. Zero Doubt. imo.

WannabeBlueDevil
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Re: Duke ($$) v. Northwestern ($) Updated!

Postby WannabeBlueDevil » Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:13 pm

WannabeBlueDevil wrote:I know people at NU and Duke, and am at Duke now. I genuinely think Duke is a no-brainer over NU in your situation, unless you want to live and work in Chicago.

Short of that. Duke. Zero Doubt. imo.


also fwiw, If you dont do well, you may have a better chance at OCI'ing to Chicago big law from Duke than from NU, because the higher NU kids may take all your spots for the Chicago firms. Hard to really guess this, but it may be something to think about.

dgraba1
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Re: Duke ($$) v. Northwestern ($) Updated!

Postby dgraba1 » Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:19 pm

Hello. Duke student here. Thought I'd post a list of firms interviewing for their Chicago offices at OCI this year for Duke. Definitely a smaller number of firms from Chicago than from, say, New York or DC. You might want to compare with Chicago firms from Northwestern to see if there is a big enough difference to alter your choice.

Bryan Cave, LLP
Edwards Wildman Palmer LLP
Faegre Baker Daniels LLP
Foley & Lardner, LLP
Holland & Knight, LLP
Jones Day
Latham & Watkins LLP
Paul Hastings LLP
Perkins Coie, LLP
Ropes & Gray, LLP
Sidley Austin LLP

While there are probably fewer Chicago firms directly interviewing at Duke, you will likely have significantly less competition from students within the school. The number of students here specifically targeting Chicago is considerably lower than for a number of other markets. With your ties, you would be in good shape. As well, Duke does an On Tour Interviewing Program in Chicago, IL early in August, which allows students to meet with interviewers from a number of Chicago firms that don't come directly on campus for interviews.

Additionally, as a similarly aged student here at Duke (28 years old, rising 2L), and moving from a similarly large city (New York), I have found Durham to be a fine place to spend three years of study. Cheaper cost of living when living off of student loans is highly underrated.

Feel free to PM me if you have any questions in making your decision.

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Ohiobumpkin
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Re: Duke ($$) v. Northwestern ($) Updated!

Postby Ohiobumpkin » Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:22 pm

Based on your UG debt, I'd say go Duke. Also, if NC (plus SE?) is so far down on your list of places you want to live+work in the future, why did you apply to Duke in the first place?

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Samara
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Re: Duke ($$) v. Northwestern ($) Updated!

Postby Samara » Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:47 pm

dgraba1 wrote:Hello. Duke student here. Thought I'd post a list of firms interviewing for their Chicago offices at OCI this year for Duke. Definitely a smaller number of firms from Chicago than from, say, New York or DC. You might want to compare with Chicago firms from Northwestern to see if there is a big enough difference to alter your choice.

Bryan Cave, LLP
Edwards Wildman Palmer LLP
Faegre Baker Daniels LLP
Foley & Lardner, LLP
Holland & Knight, LLP
Jones Day
Latham & Watkins LLP
Paul Hastings LLP
Perkins Coie, LLP
Ropes & Gray, LLP
Sidley Austin LLP

I don't have an OCI list, but according to NALP, the following Vault firms with Chicago offices do OCI at NU (in addition to those on your list). Which means that your list doesn't have:

Kirkland
Skadden
Mayer Brown
Baker & McKenzie
Proskauer
DLA Piper
Winston & Strawn
Morgan Lewis
K&L Gates
McDermott
Jenner
Greenberg Traurig
Reed Smith
McGuireWoods
Katten
Drinker Biddle
Locke Lord

And that's just Vault firms. There are plenty of Chicago boutiques and NLJ firms that OCI at NU. (some are pretty large, like SNR Denton) I'm far from an authority on the subject, but it seems like OCI for Chicago firms would be far more robust at NU than Duke.

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toddly76
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Re: Duke ($$) v. Northwestern ($) Updated!

Postby toddly76 » Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:50 pm

Ohiobumpkin wrote:Based on your UG debt, I'd say go Duke. Also, if NC (plus SE?) is so far down on your list of places you want to live+work in the future, why did you apply to Duke in the first place?



Because Duke is an excellent law school that places well all over the country, not simply in NC or the South, and affords excellent prospects. As I was applying, I assumed UChi and NU to be reach schools (because of my numbers and lack of WE, respectively). Durham, I'm sure, is a fine place to live, but I'd simply much prefer to live in Chicago given my circumstances.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Duke ($$) v. Northwestern ($) Updated!

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:58 pm

Based on your posts, Northwestern seems to be the better choice despite the higher cost.

mr.hands
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Re: Duke ($$) v. Northwestern ($) Updated!

Postby mr.hands » Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:03 pm

Good luck. NU is a great school!

lawyerwannabe
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Re: Duke ($$) v. Northwestern ($) Updated!

Postby lawyerwannabe » Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:18 pm

I'll take "Future Law Students Who Already Have Their Mind Made Up And Create a Thread Hoping Other People Will Reinforce Their Choice But Are Ultimately Unpersuaded by Reason and Rationality Because Their Mind was Made Up Long Before" for $200.

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toddly76
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Re: Duke ($$) v. Northwestern ($) Updated!

Postby toddly76 » Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:28 pm

lawyerwannabe wrote:I'll take "Future Law Students Who Already Have Their Mind Made Up And Create a Thread Hoping Other People Will Reinforce Their Choice But Are Ultimately Unpersuaded by Reason and Rationality Because Their Mind was Made Up Long Before" for $200.


Thanks for your unhelpful and inapposite snark. I don't have my mind made up, never did, and am grateful to all the advice, especially about OCI, that others are good enough to provide.

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Re: Duke ($$) v. Northwestern ($) Updated!

Postby lawyerwannabe » Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:33 pm

toddly76 wrote:
lawyerwannabe wrote:I'll take "Future Law Students Who Already Have Their Mind Made Up And Create a Thread Hoping Other People Will Reinforce Their Choice But Are Ultimately Unpersuaded by Reason and Rationality Because Their Mind was Made Up Long Before" for $200.


Thanks for your unhelpful and inapposite snark. I don't have my mind made up, never did, and am grateful to all the advice, especially about OCI, that others are good enough to provide.


How is my comment wrong? It is just that your thread is very similar to many people. They already have their mind made up before posting and, no matter the reasons given for choosing the other choice, they ultimately decide to go to the school they had their mind set on the entire time. Is that not what happened here?

You are already $100k in debt and NU is going to cost you about $75k more than Duke. The number is going to be even larger considering there are no more subsidized loans available. The schools are peers. I have not read one rational reason for attending NU over Duke. Yet, you have chosen NU. You had your mind made up before posting. It is what it is.

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JamMasterJ
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Re: Duke ($$) v. Northwestern ($) Updated!

Postby JamMasterJ » Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:40 pm

lawyerwannabe wrote:
toddly76 wrote:
lawyerwannabe wrote:I'll take "Future Law Students Who Already Have Their Mind Made Up And Create a Thread Hoping Other People Will Reinforce Their Choice But Are Ultimately Unpersuaded by Reason and Rationality Because Their Mind was Made Up Long Before" for $200.


Thanks for your unhelpful and inapposite snark. I don't have my mind made up, never did, and am grateful to all the advice, especially about OCI, that others are good enough to provide.


How is my comment wrong? It is just that your thread is very similar to many people. They already have their mind made up before posting and, no matter the reasons given for choosing the other choice, they ultimately decide to go to the school they had their mind set on the entire time. Is that not what happened here?

You are already $100k in debt and NU is going to cost you about $75k more than Duke. The number is going to be even larger considering there are no more subsidized loans available. The schools are peers. I have not read one rational reason for attending NU over Duke. Yet, you have chosen NU. You had your mind made up before posting. It is what it is.

he hasn't made up his mind and his question is whether proximity to the Chicago market is worth 75K (or whatever). That's a valid question that experienced users have attempted to answer, and OP actually has listened. He asked the question, and evidence has supported the Duke side, but the circumstances have literally been different 3 times in the past 24 hours. Asking whether these changes support a different decision than the initial answer is completely valid.

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toddly76
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Re: Duke ($$) v. Northwestern ($) Updated!

Postby toddly76 » Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:42 pm

lawyerwannabe wrote:
toddly76 wrote:
lawyerwannabe wrote:I'll take "Future Law Students Who Already Have Their Mind Made Up And Create a Thread Hoping Other People Will Reinforce Their Choice But Are Ultimately Unpersuaded by Reason and Rationality Because Their Mind was Made Up Long Before" for $200.


Thanks for your unhelpful and inapposite snark. I don't have my mind made up, never did, and am grateful to all the advice, especially about OCI, that others are good enough to provide.


How is my comment wrong? It is just that your thread is very similar to many people. They already have their mind made up before posting and, no matter the reasons given for choosing the other choice, they ultimately decide to go to the school they had their mind set on the entire time. Is that not what happened here?

You are already $100k in debt and NU is going to cost you about $75k more than Duke. The number is going to be even larger considering there are no more subsidized loans available. The schools are peers. I have not read one rational reason for attending NU over Duke. Yet, you have chosen NU. You had your mind made up before posting. It is what it is.


I have not chosen NU. I am leaning heavily towards Duke. The only thing that gives me pause is getting back to the Chicago market, through ease of OCI and networking, so I can be near family, friends, and in a city I like and would prefer to live in. Deciding where to spend three years of one's life is no inconsequential consideration, especially given my age and history.

lawyerwannabe
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Re: Duke ($$) v. Northwestern ($) Updated!

Postby lawyerwannabe » Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:50 pm

While everything that you have posted suggests you have already chosen NU in your head, I'll take your word.

On Duke to Chicgao, whether it is self-selection or what, the class of 2012 that just graduated only sent a handful of people to Chicago. NU is clearly better for Chicago. However, with your $100k in debt, I don't know how someone could take on another extra $100k in debt to attend a peer school but at the end of the day you have to live with your decision, not any of us.

Edit: I'm pretty much saying that if you are truly Chicago BigLaw or bust and these are your two choices, you need to really evaluate the risks. Law school is an incredibly risky proposition that comes with, in your case, an exceptionally large and soul-crushing amount of debt. If you would only be happy with Chicago BigLaw, I would not attend law school at all in your situation. If all you want to do is practice law and have the best balance between debt and BigLaw, then Duke is the clear choice.

dgraba1
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Re: Duke ($$) v. Northwestern ($) Updated!

Postby dgraba1 » Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:11 pm

Just a friendly (though most likely unwelcome) reminder: an extra 70k plus interest really should focus heavily on that plus interest.

When adding 70k to over 200k in debt, that extra 70k is the last portion of your debt you will be paying off. Will it be five years down the road? Ten years? Whatever length it is you get to it, it will probably be over 100k extra by the time interest is added.

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toddly76
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Re: Duke ($$) v. Northwestern ($) Updated!

Postby toddly76 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:41 pm

Thanks for all of your help TLS posters. I've just officially turned down Northwestern. Northwestern was my top choice this cycle and, had this all transpired a month ago, I would probably be there. But too much money is at stake. Wish me luck, and thanks again.

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JamMasterJ
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Re: Duke ($$) v. Northwestern ($) Updated!

Postby JamMasterJ » Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:51 pm

toddly76 wrote:Thanks for all of your help TLS posters. I've just officially turned down Northwestern. Northwestern was my top choice this cycle and, had this all transpired a month ago, I would probably be there. But too much money is at stake. Wish me luck, and thanks again.

good luck dude. I think you made the right choice. Just REALLY get on Career Services about getting back to Chicago

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beachbum
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Re: Duke ($$) v. Northwestern ($) Updated!

Postby beachbum » Fri Aug 10, 2012 1:17 pm

Samara wrote:
dgraba1 wrote:Hello. Duke student here. Thought I'd post a list of firms interviewing for their Chicago offices at OCI this year for Duke. Definitely a smaller number of firms from Chicago than from, say, New York or DC. You might want to compare with Chicago firms from Northwestern to see if there is a big enough difference to alter your choice.

Bryan Cave, LLP
Edwards Wildman Palmer LLP
Faegre Baker Daniels LLP
Foley & Lardner, LLP
Holland & Knight, LLP
Jones Day
Latham & Watkins LLP
Paul Hastings LLP
Perkins Coie, LLP
Ropes & Gray, LLP
Sidley Austin LLP

I don't have an OCI list, but according to NALP, the following Vault firms with Chicago offices do OCI at NU (in addition to those on your list). Which means that your list doesn't have:

Kirkland
Skadden
Mayer Brown
Baker & McKenzie
Proskauer
DLA Piper
Winston & Strawn
Morgan Lewis
K&L Gates
McDermott
Jenner
Greenberg Traurig
Reed Smith
McGuireWoods
Katten
Drinker Biddle
Locke Lord

And that's just Vault firms. There are plenty of Chicago boutiques and NLJ firms that OCI at NU. (some are pretty large, like SNR Denton) I'm far from an authority on the subject, but it seems like OCI for Chicago firms would be far more robust at NU than Duke.


Sure, but the On-Tour program is great for supplementing our Chicago representation. OTIP firms this year include:

Baker McKenzie
Katten
Sidley
Skadden
Smith Amundsen
Jones Day
Jackson Lewis
SNR Denton

We also had Winston coming to OCI, but they pulled their Chicago office - apparently they're significantly downsizing their summer program this year. And, FWIW, several of the remaining Chicago firms (e.g. Kirkland, Mayer, DLA Piper) do resume collect. So, yeah, our Chicago representation is gonna look a lot different from NU's, and you'll have to put in work outside of OCI/OTIP, but you'll still have access to most of the major Chicago firms from Duke.




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