T3 and t4 schools

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Tushbush
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T3 and t4 schools

Postby Tushbush » Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:43 pm

There is a general consensus that law school rankings outside of the top 14 are rather arbitrary (because of the way schools are ranked). Does anyone seriously believe that you get a shittier education at t3 and 4 schools?. The way TLSers talk about them it sure seems like everyone believes this. I have a hard time believing that the quality of education you recieve at a tier 1 law school is better than at a t3 or a t4. Yet everyone speaks of t3s and t4s with disgust? What's up with this?

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Dr. Review
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Re: T3 and t4 schools

Postby Dr. Review » Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:45 pm

Almost nothing to do with the educational value and almost everything to do with your likelihood of finding a job.

srfngdd6
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Re: T3 and t4 schools

Postby srfngdd6 » Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:46 pm

most people here would rather have a job regardless of educational quality

Tushbush
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Re: T3 and t4 schools

Postby Tushbush » Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:49 pm

Why do firms put their faith in better ranked schools then? Do they not realized how law schools are ranked? Or is it all politics.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: T3 and t4 schools

Postby BarbellDreams » Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:53 pm

Because it looks more impressive for a SoCal firm to have associates from USC than from Widener Law. Most lawyers know the education is the same, but they need to impress clients and T4's do not impress clients.

tigershark
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Re: T3 and t4 schools

Postby tigershark » Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:05 pm

I doubt that anyone believes that you get a significantly "shittier" education from T3s and T4s--I mean, everyone has to take the same doctrinal courses regardless of T14 or T4. And you'll find professors with JDs from T14 schools teaching at T4 schools.

But as Barbell said, it looks bette for firms to have attorneys from T14s. Reputation is a large chunk of the game in law.

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Band A Long
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Re: T3 and t4 schools

Postby Band A Long » Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:11 pm

It's just pragmatic. There are too many law schools already, why would you advise someone to go to a school with a low likelihood of helping someone get a (legal) job? That, plus lots of people are pissed because some low-ranked schools are pretty much committing highway robbery when they try to attract students under (mostly) false pretenses.

JamesChapman23
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Re: T3 and t4 schools

Postby JamesChapman23 » Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:00 pm

See generally, the signalling theory of education. The education itself is worthless, it is merely used as a device to signal your intrinsic quality to others. At least as a cheap and easy heuristic, T14 signals core competence/intelligence/prestige, while T3/T4 does not.

McQueen
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Re: T3 and t4 schools

Postby McQueen » Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:50 pm

As noted earlier, the educational value is virtually the same. One of the main reasons the T14 wins out is because their students are believed to be brighter because of their high UG GPA and good LSAT scores.

Take two groups of athletes, one group slim, trim, strong and physical. The other group short, pudgy, weak and out of shape. While their training might be the same, whom would you hire for your team? It isn’t a perfect analogy, but you got the gist of it.

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Scotusnerd
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Re: T3 and t4 schools

Postby Scotusnerd » Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:00 pm

Some of the answers in this thread smell like bullshit to me.

The difference between T14 and 'everyone else' is a matter of employment prospects and competition. Law school is a competitive process, and the highest spots are always coveted. This feeds into a system where the most 'prestigious' employers hire the most 'prestigious' law students that did the best on both their initial LSAT and their subsequent classes.

Note that this may or may not have anything to do with the actual practice of law, or job satisfaction, or anything else like that. It is attorneys who were very good at tests and getting good grades hiring law students who are very good at tests and getting good grades. The assumption is that those from the higher level schools will have a better education, and thus be more capable of performing well as attorneys. It's a hell of an assumption, if you think about it. But it's what we've discovered works.

Basically, the actual 'quality' of your education isn't very important. Employers are interested in you doing good work for them. Your school is one of several factors they sort through to find candidates who fit their profile of who might do good work. Some employers (biglaw firms, some clerking positions etc.) will look at your school and weigh it heavily. Others honestly won't give a sh!t (public defender, state prosecutor, AUSA, JAG, some smaller firms) as long as you have what they're looking for.

Your legal education is likely not going to be that different from place to place. There is no magic, patented formula that produces super lawyers from T14 schools. It's just a competition. And the T14 are the schools that are on top of that heap.

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rayiner
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Re: T3 and t4 schools

Postby rayiner » Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:27 pm

Tushbush wrote:There is a general consensus that law school rankings outside of the top 14 are rather arbitrary (because of the way schools are ranked). Does anyone seriously believe that you get a shittier education at t3 and 4 schools?. The way TLSers talk about them it sure seems like everyone believes this. I have a hard time believing that the quality of education you recieve at a tier 1 law school is better than at a t3 or a t4. Yet everyone speaks of t3s and t4s with disgust? What's up with this?


Your education is the 8 weeks you spend with Bar Bri. Your schooling is a credentialing mechanism.

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taxnstuff
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Re: T3 and t4 schools

Postby taxnstuff » Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:42 pm

You have to be smarter and/or work harder to get into T14 schools in the first place for the most part, so why wouldn't employers want these people over t3/4

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reasonable_man
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Re: T3 and t4 schools

Postby reasonable_man » Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:03 am

2008 graduate of a T4 law school with a better job than many T1 and T2 grads, 2 appellate arguments under my belt (third to come before the end of this year), a hot wife, office overlooking the hudson and statue of liberty on the top floor of one of the oldest historical landmark buildings in the financial district, brand new car and apartment; taking questions about the difference between law schools...

In case you haven't noticed by my above sentiment, this thread is dumb. The difference between a T1 and T4 is that I am an extreme exception to the rule, as my life is what it is despite the fact that I attended an awful law school not because of it. Most people who graduated with me were not so lucky. The Odds of my outcome occurring for a particular LS graduate increase directly based upon what school you attend. The actual quality of each school is irrelevant as the only factor that matters are employment prospects. Since all lawyers learn how to be a lawyer on the job and while studying for the bar (after school is done), the school is entirely irrelevant, beyond helping to decide which firm you will be working for when you graduate. While the quality of the school doesn't matter insofar as you learn nothing at any law school; it matters greatly in that it will determine which firm (and thus the group of lawyers), that will ultimately teach you how to practice law.

Or basically, this:

rayiner wrote:
Tushbush wrote:There is a general consensus that law school rankings outside of the top 14 are rather arbitrary (because of the way schools are ranked). Does anyone seriously believe that you get a shittier education at t3 and 4 schools?. The way TLSers talk about them it sure seems like everyone believes this. I have a hard time believing that the quality of education you recieve at a tier 1 law school is better than at a t3 or a t4. Yet everyone speaks of t3s and t4s with disgust? What's up with this?


Your education is the 8 weeks you spend with Bar Bri. Your schooling is a credentialing mechanism.

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Blumpbeef
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Re: T3 and t4 schools

Postby Blumpbeef » Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:08 am

On the other hand, Thomas Jefferson has a 35% bar passage rate.

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reasonable_man
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Re: T3 and t4 schools

Postby reasonable_man » Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:17 am

Blumpbeef wrote:On the other hand, Thomas Jefferson has a 35% bar passage rate.



Fair to say that many of the 65% that failed were mentally impaired before they got to law school?

timbs4339
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Re: T3 and t4 schools

Postby timbs4339 » Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:05 am

Justice Scalia once said "you can't make a sow's ear out of a silk purse." All else being equal, employers want to hire the kid from a slightly better school, because that means the kid might have slightly better intelligence, productivity, or work ethic.

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rickgrimes69
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Re: T3 and t4 schools

Postby rickgrimes69 » Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:14 am

reasonable_man wrote:2008 graduate of a T4 law school with a better job than many T1 and T2 grads, 2 appellate arguments under my belt (third to come before the end of this year), a hot wife, office overlooking the hudson and statue of liberty on the top floor of one of the oldest historical landmark buildings in the financial district, brand new car and apartment; taking questions about the difference between law schools...



Pics or GTFO

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rayiner
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Re: T3 and t4 schools

Postby rayiner » Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:48 pm

rickgrimes69 wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:2008 graduate of a T4 law school with a better job than many T1 and T2 grads, 2 appellate arguments under my belt (third to come before the end of this year), a hot wife, office overlooking the hudson and statue of liberty on the top floor of one of the oldest historical landmark buildings in the financial district, brand new car and apartment; taking questions about the difference between law schools...



Pics or GTFO


I can confirm.

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reasonable_man
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Re: T3 and t4 schools

Postby reasonable_man » Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:55 pm

rickgrimes69 wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:2008 graduate of a T4 law school with a better job than many T1 and T2 grads, 2 appellate arguments under my belt (third to come before the end of this year), a hot wife, office overlooking the hudson and statue of liberty on the top floor of one of the oldest historical landmark buildings in the financial district, brand new car and apartment; taking questions about the difference between law schools...



Pics or GTFO



Enought people on TLS, including Rayiner, can confirm that each statement is true, so I don't really feel compelled to GTFO.

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dingbat
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Re: T3 and t4 schools

Postby dingbat » Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:00 pm

timbs4339 wrote:Justice Scalia once said "you can't make a sow's ear out of a silk purse." All else being equal, employers want to hire the kid from a slightly better school, because that means the kid might have slightly better intelligence, productivity, or work ethic.

As a partner once told me (paraphrasing and amending the context)

If s/he had any ambition s/he wouldn't have gone to TTT law school

jeffyl00b
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Re: T3 and t4 schools

Postby jeffyl00b » Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:20 pm

It's the same as any degree and major. You learn the same thing, and actually the 'worse' the school, the more they work you, but it's all marketing. It's all in the name, and the alumni network.
Half of it however, is also on the students. There's still a slightly different quality to the population of people at lower undergrad schools than those higher ones as well.

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romothesavior
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Re: T3 and t4 schools

Postby romothesavior » Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:52 pm

Bedsole wrote:Almost nothing to do with the educational value and almost everything to do with your likelihood of finding a job.

+1, and everything RM said.

sonnyhodgin
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Re: T3 and t4 schools

Postby sonnyhodgin » Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:49 pm

SPAM

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Funkycrime
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Re: T3 and t4 schools

Postby Funkycrime » Sat Aug 11, 2012 12:41 am

rickgrimes69 wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:2008 graduate of a T4 law school with a better job than many T1 and T2 grads, 2 appellate arguments under my belt (third to come before the end of this year), a hot wife, office overlooking the hudson and statue of liberty on the top floor of one of the oldest historical landmark buildings in the financial district, brand new car and apartment; taking questions about the difference between law schools...



Pics or GTFO

I am a fan of your work.

bigvinny
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Re: T3 and t4 schools

Postby bigvinny » Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:15 am

You WILL find a job if you are passionate enough and work hard enough in law school. Don't let the elitists on this forum convince you otherwise. Follow your dreams!




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