Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

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KevinP
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Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Postby KevinP » Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:54 pm

redbullvodka wrote:Chicago:

167/171/173 (--/--/--)

3.65/3.90/3.94 (-.06/+.03/--)

--LinkRemoved--

EDIT: Was added earlier in thread, but class size of 184, which is 6 less than last year's 191.

Lets see how fast those medians go down once ruby is taken out of the picture.

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Funkycrime
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Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Postby Funkycrime » Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:12 pm

What happened to the Ruby?

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Bildungsroman
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Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Postby Bildungsroman » Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:13 pm

KevinP wrote:
redbullvodka wrote:Chicago:

167/171/173 (--/--/--)

3.65/3.90/3.94 (-.06/+.03/--)

--LinkRemoved--

EDIT: Was added earlier in thread, but class size of 184, which is 6 less than last year's 191.

Lets see how fast those medians go down once ruby is taken out of the picture.

Haters to the left.

redbullvodka
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Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Postby redbullvodka » Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:31 pm

Funkycrime wrote:What happened to the Ruby?



The funding was for 20 scholarships for each of three years. The class of 2016 will be the final recipients.

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jne381
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Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Postby jne381 » Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:55 pm

We all think reduced class size is optimal for the legal market, but how will it effect the law schools.

Is the reduced class size being reduced on the bottom end of their class, meaning those with the lowest scores of the batch? I woud assume this means these are people that would have not received scholarships.

That can be a tremendous hit to a law school if it is greater than 10 students or so. Even for a school with tuition at about $35,000, a loss of ten students will be a hit of $350,000. Obviously the numbers are different based on number of students and tuition rates.

These are funds that can be put toward scholarships, hiring additional faculty, upgrading facilities, increasing clinical opportunities, and any number of other things.

Theoretically, the law schools that can maintain their means and class size will be in an optimal position going forward.

Just a thought.

karich
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Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Postby karich » Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:15 pm

Why does Penn want me to not be happy?

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HarlandBassett
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Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Postby HarlandBassett » Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:30 pm

danquayle wrote:
HarlandBassett wrote:
KevinP wrote:
justonemoregame wrote:Oops, I was thinking of the Infilaw Group that owns Florida Coastal and a couple of others, I think.

Looked into it and the InfiLaw also owns Charlotte law school and Phoenix law school (all for profits). One of the Phoenix board members was the ABA president.

What a disgusting system.

i just saw this on a friend of an acquaintance's facebook (really).


Graduate School
Florida Coastal School of Law
International Law
Beginning my legal education.


I don't normally suggest such things, but can't you casually strike up a conversation and drop hints that this is a bad idea? It's like watching someone walk off a cliff: it's so obvious that I feel I have a duty to rescue.

I was watching an episode of Modern Family when Jay tries to explain what a leap day is to his wife Gloria, who responds with "It's not my problem and it's definitely not your problem."

such wisdom.

(I actually did warn someone else who attended USF LS and she responded with "It's not always about money. I want to make a difference.")

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StrictlyBusiness
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Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Postby StrictlyBusiness » Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:59 pm

redbullvodka wrote:EDIT: Was added earlier in thread, but class size of 184, which is 6 less than last year's 191.


So everyone's okay with this, huh?

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Ruxin1
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Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Postby Ruxin1 » Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:07 pm

StrictlyBusiness wrote:
redbullvodka wrote:EDIT: Was added earlier in thread, but class size of 184, which is 6 less than last year's 191.


So everyone's okay with this, huh?


Wut

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2014
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Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Postby 2014 » Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:09 pm

I noticed it and let it go lol

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IAFG
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Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Postby IAFG » Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:10 pm

Ruxin1 wrote:
StrictlyBusiness wrote:
redbullvodka wrote:EDIT: Was added earlier in thread, but class size of 184, which is 6 less than last year's 191.


So everyone's okay with this, huh?


Wut

oh lawyers.

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Ruxin1
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Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Postby Ruxin1 » Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:12 pm

IAFG wrote:
Ruxin1 wrote:
StrictlyBusiness wrote:
redbullvodka wrote:EDIT: Was added earlier in thread, but class size of 184, which is 6 less than last year's 191.


So everyone's okay with this, huh?


Wut

oh lawyers.


:|

redbullvodka
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Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Postby redbullvodka » Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:32 pm

StrictlyBusiness wrote:
redbullvodka wrote:EDIT: Was added earlier in thread, but class size of 184, which is 6 less than last year's 191.


So everyone's okay with this, huh?


Must mean I'm an idiot

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geary86
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Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Postby geary86 » Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:39 pm

redbullvodka wrote:
StrictlyBusiness wrote:
redbullvodka wrote:EDIT: Was added earlier in thread, but class size of 184, which is 6 less than last year's 191.


So everyone's okay with this, huh?


Must mean I'm an idiot


Don't you worry about it
LOL I never noticed it... and I call myself an econ major :oops:

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KevinP
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Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Postby KevinP » Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:06 am

Bildungsroman wrote:Haters to the left.

Just stating facts, brother.

jne381 wrote:These are funds that can be put toward scholarships, hiring additional faculty, upgrading facilities, increasing clinical opportunities, and any number of other things.

Besides scholarships, which are cross-subsidized anyway, I would gladly get rid of the other factors for fewer law graduates (better employment market).

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HarlandBassett
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Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Postby HarlandBassett » Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:42 am

Pathika wrote:
jne381 wrote:This thread should use the spread sheet linked to in the OP of this thread http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194489 or make one just like it.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... nUnc#gid=0

wow, what the hell happened to Boalt's median?

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Bildungsroman
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Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Postby Bildungsroman » Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:54 am

KevinP wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:Haters to the left.

Just stating facts speculation, brother.

FTFY.

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jump_man
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Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Postby jump_man » Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:33 am

jne381 wrote:We all think reduced class size is optimal for the legal market, but how will it effect the law schools.

Is the reduced class size being reduced on the bottom end of their class, meaning those with the lowest scores of the batch? I woud assume this means these are people that would have not received scholarships.

That can be a tremendous hit to a law school if it is greater than 10 students or so. Even for a school with tuition at about $35,000, a loss of ten students will be a hit of $350,000. Obviously the numbers are different based on number of students and tuition rates.

These are funds that can be put toward scholarships, hiring additional faculty, upgrading facilities, increasing clinical opportunities, and any number of other things.

Theoretically, the law schools that can maintain their means and class size will be in an optimal position going forward.

Just a thought.


This is an interesting analysis, but you assume that the revenue generated from a full-pay student is greater than the cost of educating that student. I think this is a fair assumption to make (why would law schools operate at a loss by charging tuition that doesn't make them a profit?), but I would be interested to see some numbers about how much profit schools make off full-pay students relative to the total cost of educating that student.

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justonemoregame
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Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Postby justonemoregame » Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:27 am

Ohio State

Enrolled: 173 (-38, or -18%)

158 (-1) / 162 (-1) / 164 (-1)

3.43 (- .02) / 3.64 (+ .01) / 3.79 (- .02)

ajax
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Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Postby ajax » Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:29 am

justonemoregame wrote:Ohio State

Enrolled: 173 (-38, or -18%)

158 (-1) / 162 (-1) / 164 (-1)

3.43 (- .02) / 3.64 (+ .01) / 3.79 (- .02)


Not surprising given:

http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/new ... -tr/nSGkK/

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Borhas
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Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Postby Borhas » Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:33 pm

redbullvodka wrote:
StrictlyBusiness wrote:
redbullvodka wrote:EDIT: Was added earlier in thread, but class size of 184, which is 6 less than last year's 191.


So everyone's okay with this, huh?


Must mean I'm an idiot


Kinda does

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Borhas
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Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Postby Borhas » Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:34 pm

HarlandBassett wrote:
Pathika wrote:
jne381 wrote:This thread should use the spread sheet linked to in the OP of this thread http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194489 or make one just like it.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... nUnc#gid=0

wow, what the hell happened to Boalt's median?


It stayed the same

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thelawyler
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Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Postby thelawyler » Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:51 pm

Borhas wrote:
HarlandBassett wrote:
Pathika wrote:
jne381 wrote:This thread should use the spread sheet linked to in the OP of this thread http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194489 or make one just like it.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... nUnc#gid=0

wow, what the hell happened to Boalt's median?


It stayed the same

WOW.

WanderingPondering
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Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Postby WanderingPondering » Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:14 pm

Georgia State:
159/3.40, 204

timbs4339
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Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Postby timbs4339 » Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:49 pm

jump_man wrote:
jne381 wrote:We all think reduced class size is optimal for the legal market, but how will it effect the law schools.

Is the reduced class size being reduced on the bottom end of their class, meaning those with the lowest scores of the batch? I woud assume this means these are people that would have not received scholarships.

That can be a tremendous hit to a law school if it is greater than 10 students or so. Even for a school with tuition at about $35,000, a loss of ten students will be a hit of $350,000. Obviously the numbers are different based on number of students and tuition rates.

These are funds that can be put toward scholarships, hiring additional faculty, upgrading facilities, increasing clinical opportunities, and any number of other things.

Theoretically, the law schools that can maintain their means and class size will be in an optimal position going forward.

Just a thought.


This is an interesting analysis, but you assume that the revenue generated from a full-pay student is greater than the cost of educating that student. I think this is a fair assumption to make (why would law schools operate at a loss by charging tuition that doesn't make them a profit?), but I would be interested to see some numbers about how much profit schools make off full-pay students relative to the total cost of educating that student.


We might have to compare a school like CUNY that charges 12K per year with a 50K per year school (say NYLS) in order to figure out the absolute minimum an ABA law school can be run for. But law schools ostensibly spend 100% of their revenue on educating a student (assuming they don't add to their endowments). We "need" to have professors being paid 300K to teach 2 classes a semester, and we "need" to have 15 career services staff despite the fact only 1/3 of our grads get jobs as lawyers. It's a Ponzi.

Technically, all you need are professors and classrooms (leaving out the ABA accreditation requirements where you have to have a Law Library of Alexandria at every school. Everything else is window dressing.




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