Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

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amoricaorbust
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Re: Class sizes (c/o 2015)

Postby amoricaorbust » Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:13 pm

2014utLaw wrote:Texas = 300, down from ~375 for 2014 and ~400 from 2013.


Where did you get that info from? That's great if it's true.

2014utLaw
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Re: Class sizes (c/o 2015)

Postby 2014utLaw » Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:28 pm

amoricaorbust wrote:
2014utLaw wrote:Texas = 300, down from ~375 for 2014 and ~400 from 2013.


Where did you get that info from? That's great if it's true.


Sorry, can't say, but I am 100% sure. I realize how apocryphal this info seems, but we'll all know for sure soon enough.

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superbloom
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Re: Class sizes (c/o 2015)

Postby superbloom » Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:29 pm

Also, a friend who's going to W&L is saying that enrollment is up this year. Anyone have any info about this?

Wakelaw15
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Re: Class sizes (c/o 2015)

Postby Wakelaw15 » Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:41 pm

It will be interesting to see how many schools that have a smaller class size also lower their medians. from what i understand WFU kept their medians.

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BmoreOrLess
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Re: Class sizes (c/o 2015)

Postby BmoreOrLess » Fri Aug 10, 2012 1:59 am

Wakelaw15 wrote:It will be interesting to see how many schools that have a smaller class size also lower their medians. from what i understand WFU kept their medians.


If they did, it was probably because they were throwing boatloads of money at waitlisted splitters (me being one of them).

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justonemoregame
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Re: Class sizes (c/o 2015)

Postby justonemoregame » Sat Aug 11, 2012 9:22 am

According to an article back in June, Creighton should have at least 20 fewer students, so

136...116

Also, this chart shows schools who decreased class sizes and profile (some combo 25/50/75 lsat/gpa) from 2010 to 2011:

http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/files/ ... ofiles.pdf

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top30man
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Re: Class sizes (c/o 2015)

Postby top30man » Sat Aug 11, 2012 9:45 am

superbloom wrote:Also, a friend who's going to W&L is saying that enrollment is up this year. Anyone have any info about this?

If true its probably similar to ASU, people fell for the rankings bump.

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justonemoregame
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Re: Class sizes (c/o 2015)

Postby justonemoregame » Sat Aug 11, 2012 9:55 am

top30man wrote:
superbloom wrote:Also, a friend who's going to W&L is saying that enrollment is up this year. Anyone have any info about this?

If true its probably similar to ASU, people fell for the rankings bump.



Another thing related to this is that some schools (I know this is true of UF) may have underestimated the number of people willing to take them up on scholarship offers.

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justonemoregame
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Re: Class sizes (c/o 2015)

Postby justonemoregame » Sat Aug 11, 2012 8:24 pm

Anyone know where we can find a single source that lists all of last year's entering class sizes? Or does this info. have to be culled individually from law school websites?

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2014
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Re: Class sizes (c/o 2015)

Postby 2014 » Sat Aug 11, 2012 8:33 pm

LSN has it on individual school profiles which at least keeps you from having to navigate different menus. Don't know any in list form though.

Ex: http://chicago.lawschoolnumbers.com
Under enrollment 2011-2012 it shows 1L Students at 206

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justonemoregame
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Re: Class sizes (c/o 2015)

Postby justonemoregame » Sat Aug 11, 2012 8:45 pm

Thank you. Don't know why I didn't check here -- So it looks like LSN includes part-time students in their 1L enrollment figures. For ex. I checked Ariz. State, which enrolled 171 full-time according to their website, but it shows 191 on LSN.

I'm working on a list, so I guess I'll just go with what LSN has since that will be way easier.

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justonemoregame
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Re: Class sizes (c/o 2015)

Postby justonemoregame » Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:15 am

Here's a list of 1L entering class sizes by school, compiled from data given on LSN, which includes both full and part-time students:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... HBvMXFPYWc

Feel free to edit, or add information if you're up for that. And here's to watching these numbers nosedive (hopefully).

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KevinP
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Re: Class sizes (c/o 2015)

Postby KevinP » Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:29 pm

justonemoregame wrote:Anyone know where we can find a single source that lists all of last year's entering class sizes? Or does this info. have to be culled individually from law school websites?

Seems you already have class sizes, but here's a list if you wanted it regardless: https://officialguide.lsac.org/RELEASE/ ... ation.aspx

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justonemoregame
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Re: Class sizes (c/o 2015)

Postby justonemoregame » Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:59 pm

Ugh. LSN doesn't match up with LSAC. Thank you for the link though

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dingbat
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Re: Class sizes (c/o 2015)

Postby dingbat » Sun Aug 12, 2012 3:23 pm

justonemoregame wrote:Ugh. LSN doesn't match up with LSAC. Thank you for the link though

no surprise there...

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KevinP
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Re: Class sizes (c/o 2015)

Postby KevinP » Sun Aug 12, 2012 3:26 pm

^
I think the LSN data is oudated. I think it's for the classes of 2010/2011.

otnemem
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Re: Class sizes (c/o 2015)

Postby otnemem » Sun Aug 12, 2012 3:37 pm

I think the LSN data is oudated.


Agreed. For Columbia, the number on their website matched the lsac number, but not lsn's. Also, can anyone confirm that the 2012 entering class is 406 students? I haven't heard anything, and that would be exactly the same as 2011...

http://web.law.columbia.edu/admissions/ ... ss-profile

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KevinP
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Re: Class sizes (c/o 2015)

Postby KevinP » Sun Aug 12, 2012 4:31 pm

otnemem wrote:
I think the LSN data is oudated.


Agreed. For Columbia, the number on their website matched the lsac number, but not lsn's. Also, can anyone confirm that the 2012 entering class is 406 students? I haven't heard anything, and that would be exactly the same as 2011...

http://web.law.columbia.edu/admissions/ ... ss-profile


CLS over-enrolled last year (hence the lack of waitlist movement last year). This year they were aiming for a class size of 380, and based on waitlist movement, I think they are very likely to hit their target.

If we look at the effect last cycle's decline had on the T14, we'll notice a decline in entering class sizes at quite a few law schools. Only two T14s had an increase in class sizes (Columbia and Penn) and out of these, only Penn had an increase of more than 1% for it's entering class.

C/O 2013 ---> C/O 2014:
Yale: Entering Class Size: 205 (0) Percentage Change: -0.0%
Harvard: Entering Class Size: 559 (-2) Percentage Change: -0.36%
Stanford: Entering Class Size: 180 (0) Percentage Change: -0.0%
Columbia: Entering Class Size: 406 (2) Percentage Change: 0.5%
Chicago: Entering Class Size: 191 (-14) Percentage Change: -6.83%
NYU: Entering Class Size: 450 (-26) Percentage Change: -5.46%
Berkeley: Entering Class Size: 254 (-32) Percentage Change: -11.19%
Penn: Entering Class Size: 266 (16) Percentage Change: 6.4%
UVA: Entering Class Size: 357 (-11) Percentage Change: -2.99%
Michigan: Entering Class Size: 359 (-17) Percentage Change: -4.52%
Duke: Entering Class Size: 211 (-27) Percentage Change: -11.34%
Northwestern: Entering Class Size: 264 (-10) Percentage Change: -3.65%
GULC: Entering Class Size: 579 (-12) Percentage Change: -2.03%
Cornell: Entering Class Size: 204 (-1) Percentage Change: -0.49%

otnemem
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Re: Class sizes (c/o 2015)

Postby otnemem » Sun Aug 12, 2012 4:46 pm

Thanks for the info Kevin. I notice that C/O 2013 had 404 students, so I guess they over-enrolled the past two years?

Additionally, this is an interesting article for anyone who hasn't seen it on the drop in enrollment the previous cycle (C/O 2014);
http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/legalw ... hools.html

-Among the top 100 schools, 55 schools (over one-half) had a decline in profile, while 67 (two-thirds) had a decline in enrollment, with 27 experiencing a decline in enrollment of 10% or more. Notably, 35 schools saw a decline in enrollment and in profile (over one-third) of which 15 schools saw declines in enrollment of 10% or more and a decline in profile. Overall enrollment was down roughly 6%.

-Across the bottom 97 schools then, 56 saw a decline in profile while 74 (more than three-quarters) saw a decline in enrollment, of which 36 (nearly 40%) saw a decline in enrollment of 10% or more. Notably 40 schools saw a decline in enrollment and a decline in profile, of which 22 saw a decline in enrollment of 10% or more and a decline in profile. Overall, enrollment was down nearly 10%.

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BuckinghamB
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Re: Class sizes (c/o 2015)

Postby BuckinghamB » Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:22 pm

If each section has the same number of students as one another (mine has 22), Mich's entering class will be 352.

Englander742
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Re: Class sizes (c/o 2015)

Postby Englander742 » Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:43 am

Washington University in St. Louis: ~217 for Class of 2015 (Down from 242)

Wakelaw15
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Re: Class sizes (c/o 2015)

Postby Wakelaw15 » Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:58 am

Today's Campos blog (http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/) is relevant to this thread.

In the comments section I posed a question: assuming the economic situation does not change, will these decreased class sizes affect class of 2015 employment outcomes, or will they be too small to have a significant affect? In other words, if the baseline last year is 50% of JDs get long term JD-required jobs, then would a nationwide decrease of x thousand lawyers in the class of 2015 significantly affect this figure, and if so how much?

timbs4339
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Re: Class sizes (c/o 2015)

Postby timbs4339 » Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:25 pm

Wakelaw15 wrote:Today's Campos blog (http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/) is relevant to this thread.

In the comments section I posed a question: assuming the economic situation does not change, will these decreased class sizes affect class of 2015 employment outcomes, or will they be too small to have a significant affect? In other words, if the baseline last year is 50% of JDs get long term JD-required jobs, then would a nationwide decrease of x thousand lawyers in the class of 2015 significantly affect this figure, and if so how much?


Assuming the legal hiring market does not continue to shed entry-level jobs (a BIG if), it probably will increase the FT JD employment rates somewhat since employers are most likely to skip the people who have been out of work 1 or 2 years and hire fresh grads- however the increase will not equal the decrease in class size. However, remember that the FT legal employment figure includes people in school funded jobs and that is a significant proportion of graduates at some schools. I wouldn't be surprised if the cuts in revenue force schools to end these programs, so the net affect on the overall percentage is negligible or possibly even negative.

Wakelaw15
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Re: Class sizes (c/o 2015)

Postby Wakelaw15 » Wed Aug 15, 2012 3:49 pm

timbs4339 wrote:
Wakelaw15 wrote:Today's Campos blog (http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/) is relevant to this thread.

In the comments section I posed a question: assuming the economic situation does not change, will these decreased class sizes affect class of 2015 employment outcomes, or will they be too small to have a significant affect? In other words, if the baseline last year is 50% of JDs get long term JD-required jobs, then would a nationwide decrease of x thousand lawyers in the class of 2015 significantly affect this figure, and if so how much?


Assuming the legal hiring market does not continue to shed entry-level jobs (a BIG if), it probably will increase the FT JD employment rates somewhat since employers are most likely to skip the people who have been out of work 1 or 2 years and hire fresh grads- however the increase will not equal the decrease in class size. However, remember that the FT legal employment figure includes people in school funded jobs and that is a significant proportion of graduates at some schools.I wouldn't be surprised if the cuts in revenue force schools to end these programs, so the net affect on the overall percentage is negligible or possibly even negative.


Even if these positions go away, I don't think that can offset the decrease in enrollment. The class of 2014 was down from the class of 2013, and a rough estimate (based on what we have in this thread, and what we know about how many people have taken the last few administrations of the LSAT) suggests that the class of 2015 will be several thousand students smaller than class of 2014, and maybe approaching ten thousand fewer students.

timbs4339
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Re: Class sizes (c/o 2015)

Postby timbs4339 » Wed Aug 15, 2012 5:57 pm

Wakelaw15 wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:
Wakelaw15 wrote:Today's Campos blog (http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/) is relevant to this thread.

In the comments section I posed a question: assuming the economic situation does not change, will these decreased class sizes affect class of 2015 employment outcomes, or will they be too small to have a significant affect? In other words, if the baseline last year is 50% of JDs get long term JD-required jobs, then would a nationwide decrease of x thousand lawyers in the class of 2015 significantly affect this figure, and if so how much?


Assuming the legal hiring market does not continue to shed entry-level jobs (a BIG if), it probably will increase the FT JD employment rates somewhat since employers are most likely to skip the people who have been out of work 1 or 2 years and hire fresh grads- however the increase will not equal the decrease in class size. However, remember that the FT legal employment figure includes people in school funded jobs and that is a significant proportion of graduates at some schools.I wouldn't be surprised if the cuts in revenue force schools to end these programs, so the net affect on the overall percentage is negligible or possibly even negative.


Even if these positions go away, I don't think that can offset the decrease in enrollment. The class of 2014 was down from the class of 2013, and a rough estimate (based on what we have in this thread, and what we know about how many people have taken the last few administrations of the LSAT) suggests that the class of 2015 will be several thousand students smaller than class of 2014, and maybe approaching ten thousand fewer students.


That depends on where the legal market is in three years and what proportion of employers will prefer recent grads to people who have been out 1-2 years. I think it is more likely an employer will take a recent grad, but there may be some people who prefer folks working PT or in some non-legal job.




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