Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
Real Madrid
Posts: 835
Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 12:21 am

Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Postby Real Madrid » Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:32 am

HarlandBassett wrote:
soj wrote:
top30man wrote:
spicyyoda17 wrote:For those of us new to this game, what is it about UVA admissions that is so bad?

Nothing is bad, but people get frustrated with how numbers oriented it is. To achieve their medians with a large class they rely on splitter ED applicants. You are almost automatically admitted if one of your two numbers is at or above median. However, pretty much every T14 is numbers focused to a degree.

This. It seems unfair to many people that a 3.04/171 (below one median, above another, a lock for ED UVA) has a better chance of getting into UVA than a 3.82/169 (below both medians, most likely WL at best). Like top30 said, UVA is not the only school that does this, though.

how does the timing of the 3.04/171 admit affect scholly money? (b/c i read somewhere LSs toss more money for waitlisted-then-accepted students)


The 3.04/171 student would almost certainly get no money, but would matriculate to UVa because they are very unlikely to be accepted to any other T14 school with the possible exceptions of NU or GULC.

I know I sound like a broken record, but what bugs me the most about UVA is just how pervasive their gaming of the rankings is. I understand that all schools do it to a degree, but UVA does it from before students are accepted (read: giving out fee waivers like candy to anyone who so much as asks) to after they graduate. For instance, UVA relies on ED splitters and reverse-splitters to fill a large part of their class for the sole reason of preserving their medians. They have a 2-week turnaround for ED applicants after we have heard forever about how schools read each application as thoughtfully and thoroughly as possible. The whole reason they do this is because they want to be the first T14 people apply to so they can manicure their medians as best as possible.

Then, when a student is borderline or on the WL, they actually call them to gauge their interest in UVA, so they don't waste an acceptance (thereby lowering their yield) on someone who may be unlikely to come. I don't know of any other T14 that does this, though there could be one or two.

And finally, on the back end, they hire (at least according to the most recent class data on LST) nearly 20% of their graduates for school-funded jobs to avoid having them listed as unemployed. Now, I know other schools do this, too, but IIRC, UVa had BY FAR the most of all the T14s.

User avatar
smaug_
Posts: 2195
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:06 pm

Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Postby smaug_ » Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:56 am

Real Madrid wrote:some UVA hate


I'm not a UVA student, but I think that UVA has some great admissions practices. I don't see what the problem with relying on splitters is. Is it wrong to admit students when they improve the median numbers of the class? Is it a sense of "fairness" that bothers you? If someone wants to get into UVA, they have a very clear idea of the numbers required. Yes, it is vaguely silly that some stronge candidates might get ignored, but those candidates can either improve their numbers or apply elsewhere. Most of the so-called "T10" schools seem to YP heavily. Many schools in general seem to YP heavily.

I agree that the school-funded rate is scary. I think it would be scarier if the 17% in school funded positions were totally unemployed, though. Outside of HYS, all of the good schools have issues. But, I think it is silly to hate on any of those schools in particular. I get that you need to maintaing the Berkeley trolling on this site, but I don't see why defending Berkeley entails shitting on other schools.

mr.hands
Posts: 892
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:23 pm

Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Postby mr.hands » Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:11 pm

hibiki wrote:
Real Madrid wrote:some UVA hate


I agree that the school-funded rate is scary. I think it would be scarier if the 17% in school funded positions were totally unemployed, though. Outside of HYS, all of the good schools have issues. But, I think it is silly to hate on any of those schools in particular. I get that you need to maintaing the Berkeley trolling on this site, but I don't see why defending Berkeley entails shitting on other schools.


This is a poor defense of UVA. No other school in the Top 10, or even T14 for that matter, has a higher school funded %. UM has 8%, Duke has 5%, even GULC has a lower % of school funded jobs (13%).

The problem is not only that UVA employs nearly 1 in 5 of its students at graduation. The problem is that these numbers are factored into their "full time employment" numbers, giving it an artificially high employment score of 94.7%.

User avatar
smaug_
Posts: 2195
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:06 pm

Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Postby smaug_ » Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:02 pm

mr.hands wrote:
hibiki wrote:
Real Madrid wrote:some UVA hate


I agree that the school-funded rate is scary. I think it would be scarier if the 17% in school funded positions were totally unemployed, though. Outside of HYS, all of the good schools have issues. But, I think it is silly to hate on any of those schools in particular. I get that you need to maintaing the Berkeley trolling on this site, but I don't see why defending Berkeley entails shitting on other schools.


This is a poor defense of UVA. No other school in the Top 10, or even T14 for that matter, has a higher school funded %. UM has 8%, Duke has 5%, even GULC has a lower % of school funded jobs (13%).

The problem is not only that UVA employs nearly 1 in 5 of its students at graduation. The problem is that these numbers are factored into their "full time employment" numbers, giving it an artificially high employment score of 94.7%.



What would happen to the 17% otherwise? The school funded percentage is scary, no doubt, but my underlying point stands. It is obvious that they had a hard time finding employment for their students for c/o 2011. My point was not that UVA should be totally forgiven; rather, my point was that you shouldn't hate a school for that particular fact alone. Deride them for the fact that Georgetown might have done a better job finding employment rather than for providing a slight safety net.

As for the misrepresentation aspect, I think we've reached the point where it is up to the buy to recognize which numbers are meaningful and which are not. Obviously UVA is about gaming the system. But, I don't think that they're a particularly worse school than other T14s and hating on them for protecting their self interest seems misguided.

User avatar
2014
Posts: 5831
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:53 pm

Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Postby 2014 » Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:26 pm

1 year of work making 35k or whatever UVA pays them is not defensible. "Well they could be unemployed" is hardly valid as they also could be doing any number of jobs with only their UG degree or manual labor for more than what UVA pays them after charging them a quarter of a million dollars for the privilege.

I have little problem with the UVA gaming of the rankings though as long as people understand that it is happening and know what they are getting into. It's still a really solid school, but it is one with a huge class, in proximity to the most competitive market (DC), and that would probably be a few spots lower in the almighty USNWR spectrum should it do admissions practices like every other school. You could also argue every other school should be as wise to the rankings as UVA though or they have no reason to complain.

mr.hands
Posts: 892
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:23 pm

Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Postby mr.hands » Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:39 pm

hibiki wrote:
mr.hands wrote:
hibiki wrote:
Real Madrid wrote:some UVA hate


I agree that the school-funded rate is scary. I think it would be scarier if the 17% in school funded positions were totally unemployed, though. Outside of HYS, all of the good schools have issues. But, I think it is silly to hate on any of those schools in particular. I get that you need to maintaing the Berkeley trolling on this site, but I don't see why defending Berkeley entails shitting on other schools.


This is a poor defense of UVA. No other school in the Top 10, or even T14 for that matter, has a higher school funded %. UM has 8%, Duke has 5%, even GULC has a lower % of school funded jobs (13%).

The problem is not only that UVA employs nearly 1 in 5 of its students at graduation. The problem is that these numbers are factored into their "full time employment" numbers, giving it an artificially high employment score of 94.7%.



What would happen to the 17% otherwise? The school funded percentage is scary, no doubt, but my underlying point stands. It is obvious that they had a hard time finding employment for their students for c/o 2011. My point was not that UVA should be totally forgiven; rather, my point was that you shouldn't hate a school for that particular fact alone. Deride them for the fact that Georgetown might have done a better job finding employment rather than for providing a slight safety net.

As for the misrepresentation aspect, I think we've reached the point where it is up to the buy to recognize which numbers are meaningful and which are not. Obviously UVA is about gaming the system. But, I don't think that they're a particularly worse school than other T14s and hating on them for protecting their self interest seems misguided.


I just don't buy the "it's better than unemployment" argument. If students have 250k plus in debt, a temp job w the school isnt going to do much for them. UVA isn't employing it's students out of the kindness of their hearts. They employ them to boost their employment numbers, then they get rid of them afterward
Last edited by mr.hands on Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Tom Joad
Posts: 4542
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2008 5:56 pm

Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Postby Tom Joad » Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:47 pm

Real Madrid wrote:I know I sound like a broken record, but what bugs me the most about UVA is just how pervasive their gaming of the rankings is. I understand that all schools do it to a degree, but UVA does it from before students are accepted (read: giving out fee waivers like candy to anyone who so much as asks) to after they graduate.

OH THE HUMANITY!

Secondary sources are saying UVA gave tons of scholarship money to the C/O '15 as well. The average student might be paying half of sticker cost. Fuck them for gaming the rankings, huh Real Madrid?

Real Madrid
Posts: 835
Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 12:21 am

Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Postby Real Madrid » Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:02 pm

Tom Joad wrote:
Real Madrid wrote:I know I sound like a broken record, but what bugs me the most about UVA is just how pervasive their gaming of the rankings is. I understand that all schools do it to a degree, but UVA does it from before students are accepted (read: giving out fee waivers like candy to anyone who so much as asks) to after they graduate.

OH THE HUMANITY!

Secondary sources are saying UVA gave tons of scholarship money to the C/O '15 as well. The average student might be paying half of sticker cost. Fuck them for gaming the rankings, huh Real Madrid?


Lol, I see you deleted the post you made a few minutes ago about UVA's overall USNWR rankings vis-a-vis those of Berkeley. I guess you felt pretty stupid when you actually researched the BS you were spewing, eh?

Can you link us to the secondary sources that show the average student at UVA is paying half of the tuition there? I guess paying $125k in tuition is better if you're getting a school-funded job than $250k though. Am I right?

User avatar
Tom Joad
Posts: 4542
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2008 5:56 pm

Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Postby Tom Joad » Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:05 pm

Real Madrid wrote:
Tom Joad wrote:
Real Madrid wrote:I know I sound like a broken record, but what bugs me the most about UVA is just how pervasive their gaming of the rankings is. I understand that all schools do it to a degree, but UVA does it from before students are accepted (read: giving out fee waivers like candy to anyone who so much as asks) to after they graduate.

OH THE HUMANITY!

Secondary sources are saying UVA gave tons of scholarship money to the C/O '15 as well. The average student might be paying half of sticker cost. Fuck them for gaming the rankings, huh Real Madrid?


Lol, I see you deleted the post you made a few minutes ago about UVA's overall USNWR rankings vis-a-vis those of Berkeley. I guess you felt pretty stupid when you actually researched the BS you were spewing, eh?

Can you link us to the secondary sources that show the average student at UVA is paying half of the tuition there? I guess paying $125k in tuition is better if you're getting a school-funded job than $250k though. Am I right?

Look at the cash thrown around on LSN. And I was going to respond to that point about you misconstruing my statement, but hibiki already did. There is no way the average Berkeley student is paying within $5,000 of what the average UVA student is paying per year. If I were you I would focus your anger on tuition hikes.

User avatar
HBBJohnStamos
Posts: 456
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Postby HBBJohnStamos » Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:36 pm

Tom Joad wrote:Look at the cash thrown around on LSN. And I was going to respond to that point about you misconstruing my statement, but hibiki already did. There is no way the average Berkeley student is paying within $5,000 of what the average UVA student is paying per year. If I were you I would focus your anger on tuition hikes.

You really think that the average UVA student uses LSN?

Let's at least throw some real stats out there:

Virginia Law gave grants or scholarships to about 58 percent of its student body in 2007, which is the third highest amount among the T14 (the closest rival was Michigan at 57 percent). Also, its median grant amount in 2007 was $14,500, about $5,200 higher than Michigan’s, which has a comparable class size.


http://www.top-law-schools.com/virginia-law-school.html

User avatar
Tom Joad
Posts: 4542
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2008 5:56 pm

Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Postby Tom Joad » Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:40 pm

HBBJohnStamos wrote:You really think that the average UVA student uses LSN?

No, but good detective work. Not sure if Real Madrid deserves that much effort though.

User avatar
Borhas
Posts: 4852
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:09 pm

Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Postby Borhas » Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:53 pm

somehow I doubt Alabama's reported medians

splittinghairs
Posts: 139
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:56 pm

Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Postby splittinghairs » Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:20 am

Alabama is another school that games the rankings shamelessly but if you are suggesting that they are pulling UIUC by actually lying then I have to disagree about that.

Last year UA had 38 of 165 students who were admitted as UA law honors students who do not have to take the LSAT to be admitted. Thus, UA gets to count their inflated GPAs but not worry about reporting a non-existent LSAT. This means that in order to report a 165 median LSAT all they need is to find 64 students with 165 or above in a class of 165.

Meanwhile, they do not have to worry about their median GPA because those 38 honors students all have like 3.9s.

What UA does is hardly new, its like the Wolverines program for Michigan. (but I believe that program has been discontinued because other people realized how much it games the rankings)

User avatar
Aberzombie1892
Posts: 1907
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:56 am

Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:43 am

splittinghairs wrote:Alabama is another school that games the rankings shamelessly but if you are suggesting that they are pulling UIUC by actually lying then I have to disagree about that.

Last year UA had 38 of 165 students who were admitted as UA law honors students who do not have to take the LSAT to be admitted. Thus, UA gets to count their inflated GPAs but not worry about reporting a non-existent LSAT. This means that in order to report a 165 median LSAT all they need is to find 64 students with 165 or above in a class of 165.

Meanwhile, they do not have to worry about their median GPA because those 38 honors students all have like 3.9s.

What UA does is hardly new, its like the Wolverines program for Michigan. (but I believe that program has been discontinued because other people realized how much it games the rankings)


Yeah it's pretty interesting. It's amazing when you compare and contrast all of the different ways that schools can game the rankings.
1. Splitters and reverse splitters
2. Undergrads from the University that do not have to take the LSAT
3. Large transfer sizes (for necessary revenue that was lost when the class first formed due to class size and scholarships)
4. Binding ED (for snatching up quasi-competitive students for the purpose of determining what the medians will be before late spring of the year of fall entry)

Can anyone think of any other interesting form of gaming the rankings?

User avatar
Tom Joad
Posts: 4542
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2008 5:56 pm

Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Postby Tom Joad » Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:51 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:Can anyone think of any other interesting form of gaming the rankings?

Merit scholarships.

User avatar
sunynp
Posts: 1899
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 2:06 pm

Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Postby sunynp » Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:56 pm

Fee waivers and gifts for applying to boost yield.

Managing the wait list based solely on numbers but also to yield protect.

Paul Campos
Posts: 644
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:44 am

Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Postby Paul Campos » Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:09 pm

JD students attending UVA in 2011-12 received an average discount of $8100 off sticker per LSAC data. Berkeley students received an average discount of $9268. These averages include students who received no discount. (55% of UVA students paid sticker, while 35% of Berkeley students did.)

UC-B estimates a sticker COA $6000 higher per year than UVA however.
Last edited by Paul Campos on Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Tom Joad
Posts: 4542
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2008 5:56 pm

Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Postby Tom Joad » Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:14 pm

Paul Campos wrote:JD students attending UVA in 2011-12 received an average discount of $8100 off sticker per LSAC data. Berkeley students received an average discount of $9268. These averages include students who received no discount. (55% of UVA students paid sticker, while 35% of Berkeley students did.)

Damn numbers getting in the way of my argument. I hate when that happens.

BigBucks
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:55 am

Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Postby BigBucks » Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:46 pm

So, UVA gives a fairly substantial amount of scholarships PLUS if you can't get a job they'll hire you (at least temporarily while you look for other employment). How is this an issue? Also, discounting their high rates of hiring their own students, they still place 77% (which is much better than G-Town's 62% rate so idk why anyone mentioned that school). 77% ain't bad folks, just 3% short of Berkeley's rate. You can say they game the rankings but at the end of the day their product is better than 90% of the law schools out there, and many of the t-14 (G-Town wasup).
Last edited by BigBucks on Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
VUSisterRayVU
Posts: 162
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:57 pm

Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Postby VUSisterRayVU » Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:02 pm

BigBucks wrote:So, UVA gives a fairly good amount of scholarships PLUS if you can't get a job they'll hire you (at least temporarily while you look for other employment). How is this an issue? Also, discounting their high rates of hiring their own students, they still place 77% (which is much better than G-Town's 62% rate so idk why anyone mentioned that school). 77% ain't bad folks, just 3% short of Berkeley's rate. You can say they game the rankings but at the end of the day their product it better than 90% of the law schools out there, and many of the t-14 (G-Town wasup).


It's egregious trolling. UVA is fine though P is maybe marginally better if you have your heart absolutely set on NYC BIGLAW. GULC is obviously worse but they have a huge class and a decent amount of people who self-select out of BIGLAW. Cornell places way better than their ranking would suggest.

User avatar
Aberzombie1892
Posts: 1907
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:56 am

Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:41 pm

Yeah how could I have missed merit scholarships, fee waivers, and gifts (like music downloads). I guess schools have to do what they have to do.

What's up with all of the comparisons of UVA vs. random T14 X? I see above, someone compared Berkeley to UVA in terms of placement. The difference between the two schools is that Berkeley feeds into a large market while UVA does not. What does that means? Basically, if a student is at the median at Berkeley, they are still competitive at multiple large firm offices in CA (many of which require much higher than median grades from other non-HYS, and possibly non-CCish, T14 schools). However, if you are median at UVA, you are not that competitive for NYC/DC/ATL, and so you are (almost) forced to seek out NLJ firms in secondary markets. Of course, I'm not saying that those cities are not possible from median at UVA, I'm simply saying that UVA is at a disadvantage due to the fact that it does not have a very large market that it feeds students into, like Chicago, NYC, or CA.

BigBucks
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:55 am

Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Postby BigBucks » Sun Aug 26, 2012 3:12 pm

I think the whole market thing is pretty pointless when comparing t-14s. UVA places 25%of its class in firms 500+ while Berkeley places 29%, where they place is pretty irrelevant unless you just HAVE to be in Cali.. also UVA places 16% of its class in federal/state clerkships vs. Berkeley's 9%. The difference between these schools is being overblown.

User avatar
justonemoregame
Posts: 1160
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:51 pm

Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Postby justonemoregame » Sun Aug 26, 2012 3:34 pm

Did we ever find out NYU's mystery medians?

Also, does Arizona State seriously have 250 1Ls this year? That's awful if true.

About UVA - does anyone know if their "employment" program qualifies for the 10-year PSLF? Could a law school just start a public service firm and hire its unemployed to work under the direction of experienced atty's and pay them some low wage with the upside being complete forgiveness of loans in 10 years (if they stay that long)? And if they don't stay that long, maybe they could move on to another PSLF-qualifying position so they can stay on the ten year track.

culturaln
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:18 pm

Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Postby culturaln » Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:19 pm

I don't mean to intrude into the discussion of UVA's tinkering with the numbers, but I thought I'd add a bit about Michigan. (Perhaps somebody mentioned this already; sorry if it's redundant.)

As of July, according to their viewbook:
Applications: 5,100
Enrolled: 350
GPA Median: 3.75
LSAT Median: 169

Class of '14 had 5,422 applicants, 359 enrolled, 3.76/169. No word about ranges for '15.

I believe Zearfoss has said that she expected a class slightly smaller than last year's, so 350 may be pretty close the final numbers.

User avatar
TheThriller
Posts: 2285
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:12 pm

Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Postby TheThriller » Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:31 pm

ND's median is not 161




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests