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Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:53 pm
by jenesaislaw
lovelaw27 wrote:
Wakelaw15 wrote:
lovelaw27 wrote:
Wakelaw15 wrote:I don't know if it's true, but I heard today that Charlotte's class for this year is around 100 students larger (it was 479 last year). Their numbers for c/o 2014 were medians of 3.0 (gpa) and 149 (lsat), with an age range of 19-63 years old.


LST has last year's incoming class at 529 with a median lsat of 148. Where are you getting your numbers from?

--LinkRemoved--


The Charlotte law website: (http://www.charlottelaw.edu/uploadedFil ... 202011.pdf)


I’ve been noticing schools have been publishing incoming class data that is different than what the ABA says it is. I wonder why. LSAC also say it is 529.

https://officialguide.lsac.org/RELEASE/ ... lData.aspx


Not totally sure on this, but my guess is that the schools that differ (especially by that much) are not counting all incoming students. For example, Charlotte said "Fall 2011" was 412, but they also have a Spring Start. I'd guess there were 117 in that.

Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:22 pm
by Robespierre
Get ready for many schools trying to laugh off the decline in class size by saying: "we were over-enrolled last year; this smaller number has traditionally been our target class size and we're simply returning to it." For many schools, that will be BULL.

Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:22 pm
by Wakelaw15
crossingfingers wrote:Alabama mentioned in a fee waiver that the medians for the incoming class are 165 and 3.83.


these are the exact medians from class of 2014. so they hit them with no change?

Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:22 pm
by crossingfingers
I know. Strange, right?

They were listed in a fee waiver email that repeatedly (and correctly) labeled my application as one for "Fall 2013" and clearly labeled the listed numbers as "the medians for the class beginning Fall 2012". It's pretty hard to imagine they could catch such specific changes accurately but fail to update the stats that they refer to. That said, until they also list a class size it will be hard to tell.

Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:45 pm
by Ersatz Haderach
Case Western - 160 (down from 195).

Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:41 am
by justonemoregame
Robespierre wrote:Get ready for many schools trying to laugh off the decline in class size by saying: "we were over-enrolled last year; this smaller number has traditionally been our target class size and we're simply returning to it." For many schools, that will be BULL.


Yes, there have been a few schools commit to structural changes in the form of cutting enrollment, but I would bet we're going to see a lot of schools claiming credit for lowering class size on ethical grounds, as some sort of proactive attempt at post-recession structural change.

Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:49 pm
by justonemoregame
any news on UVA's profile?

Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:57 am
by KevinP
Robespierre wrote:Get ready for many schools trying to laugh off the decline in class size by saying: "we were over-enrolled last year; this smaller number has traditionally been our target class size and we're simply returning to it." For many schools, that will be BULL.

Agreed. Lowest applicant turnout in over 20 years (and declining if June LSATs are representative), and schools are conveniently "fixing" their over-enrollment.

Thing is, the current model of schools cutting class sizes like crazy is not sustainable. I ran the numbers sometime ago for a lot of schools that released their financial data. A ton of schools were operating at near budget capacity, with almost all of the money coming from tuition. They may be able to take a class size hit temporarily (this isn't even counting the TON of schollys schools offered), but they almost certainly will have to rework their model (insane tuition increases or staff layoffs).

Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:06 am
by top30man
KevinP wrote:
Robespierre wrote:Get ready for many schools trying to laugh off the decline in class size by saying: "we were over-enrolled last year; this smaller number has traditionally been our target class size and we're simply returning to it." For many schools, that will be BULL.

Agreed. Lowest applicant turnout in over 20 years (and declining if June LSATs are representative), and schools are conveniently "fixing" their over-enrollment.

Thing is, the current model of schools cutting class sizes like crazy is not sustainable. I ran the numbers sometime ago for a lot of schools that released their financial data. A ton of schools were operating at near budget capacity, with almost all of the money coming from tuition. They may be able to take a class size hit temporarily (this isn't even counting the TON of schollys schools offered), but they almost certainly will have to rework their model (insane tuition increases or staff layoffs).

Last cycle was very telling. Between traditionally stingy schools being generous (eg Gulc) and schools awarding significant money off the wl the paradigm has changed. I think the most interesting immediate indicator is what happens with ED this year (eg relaxing of Gpa
Floors). We should know a couple months into the cycle if it will be another cycle indicative of this new normal.

Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:38 am
by moxy
Facebook post from GULC : 'We look forward to welcoming the more than 1,000 new J.D. and LL.M. students who will be participating in Orientation activities next week!'

Doesn't look like a decrease in class size ... There has to be a drop in the medians.

Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:56 am
by KevinP
top30man wrote:Last cycle was very telling. Between traditionally stingy schools being generous (eg Gulc) and schools awarding significant money off the wl the paradigm has changed. I think the most interesting immediate indicator is what happens with ED this year (eg relaxing of Gpa
Floors). We should know a couple months into the cycle if it will be another cycle indicative of this new normal.

Yeah. I'm hoping apps dive even more so that even this "new normal" looks tame in comparison.

justonemoregame wrote:any news on UVA's profile?

Virginia (#7): 170 (0), 3.87 (+.01), 358 (+1, +0.28%)

Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:58 am
by North
KevinP wrote:Virginia (#7): 170 (0), 3.87 (+.01), 358 (+1, +0.28%)

DAMN. How did they pull that off?

Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:00 pm
by Ruxin1
North wrote:
KevinP wrote:Virginia (#7): 170 (0), 3.87 (+.01), 358 (+1, +0.28%)

DAMN. How did they pull that off?


ED acceptances - equalling out splitters and reverse-splitters...

Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:05 pm
by KevinP
^ Also (by looks of LSN) were throwing around some heavy money.

Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:15 pm
by 2014
From the ask a law student forum:

University of Kansas:
JayhawkLaw wrote: We recruited an awesome class this year comprised of 141 students...Our LSAT numbers were 154/157/159 and our GPA was 3.22/3.51/3.72


ETA: For comparison that seems to be identical to last year for them

Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:55 pm
by danquayle
Indiana is out...

2,356 applications received
202 enrolled
164 median LSAT
3.8 median GPA

That's a 2 point LSAT drop. Ouch.

Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:03 pm
by justonemoregame
danquayle wrote:Indiana is out...

2,356 applications received
202 enrolled
164 median LSAT
3.8 median GPA

That's a 2 point LSAT drop. Ouch.


And a drop of 38 1Ls! (-15.8%) Makes sense that schools in this range would have the most difficulty. Hopefully another segment, the TTTTs with huge class sizes won't get nearly as many willing buyers. They could just relax their already low standards though.

Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:05 pm
by hichvichwoh
justonemoregame wrote:
danquayle wrote:Indiana is out...

2,356 applications received
202 enrolled
164 median LSAT
3.8 median GPA

That's a 2 point LSAT drop. Ouch.


And a drop of 38 1Ls! (-15.8%) Makes sense that schools in this range would have the most difficulty. Hopefully another segment, the TTTTs with huge class sizes won't get nearly as many willing buyers. They could just relax their already low standards though.


I don't think they can get much lower than "if you can read this..."

Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:25 pm
by Wakelaw15
moxy wrote:Facebook post from GULC : 'We look forward to welcoming the more than 1,000 new J.D. and LL.M. students who will be participating in Orientation activities next week!'

Doesn't look like a decrease in class size ... There has to be a drop in the medians.


Who knows what the ratio is between JD/LLM.

Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:52 pm
by Robespierre
Wakelaw15 wrote:
moxy wrote:Facebook post from GULC : 'We look forward to welcoming the more than 1,000 new J.D. and LL.M. students who will be participating in Orientation activities next week!'

Doesn't look like a decrease in class size ... There has to be a drop in the medians.


Who knows what the ratio is between JD/LLM.


The description of their LLM program on LSAC says "we typically enroll 390 LLM students each year." And there are 2L JD transfer students participating in orientation; figure 60, based on last year. So that could mean 550 incoming JD students this year (1000 minus 390 minus 60), which would be a decrease. Can't tell for sure without more precise numbers.

Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 4:41 pm
by Robespierre
Ruxin1 wrote:
North wrote:
KevinP wrote:Virginia (#7): 170 (0), 3.87 (+.01), 358 (+1, +0.28%)

DAMN. How did they pull that off?


ED acceptances - equalling out splitters and reverse-splitters...


If they took lots of splitters and reverse splitters, that would be reflected in the 25th percentiles ... can't wait to see them.

Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:25 pm
by lovelaw27
Robespierre wrote:
Ruxin1 wrote:
North wrote:
KevinP wrote:Virginia (#7): 170 (0), 3.87 (+.01), 358 (+1, +0.28%)

DAMN. How did they pull that off?


ED acceptances - equalling out splitters and reverse-splitters...


If they took lots of splitters and reverse splitters, that would be reflected in the 25th percentiles ... can't wait to see them.


Class of 2015 Profile

The Class of 2015 is a diverse and accomplished group of students from across the country and around the world. The 358 students come from 43 states, the District of Columbia and three foreign countries, and attended 153 undergraduate institutions.


Median LSAT: 170
25%-75% LSAT: 164-171
Median GPA: 3.87
25%-75% GPA: 3.53-3.93
Average Age: 24 (range is 20 to 44)
•358 students enrolled from among 6,108 applicants
•55% men, 45% women
•20% identify themselves as minority students
•66% have work experience after college
•2 years on average of post-college experience
•7% have graduate degrees

http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/prospe ... lass15.htm

Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:34 pm
by Dr. Filth
Dang about that work experience at UVa.

.

Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:36 pm
by VasaVasori
.

Re: Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015)

Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:39 pm
by iMisto
^ So, is UVA splitter-friendly, or do they prefer splitters?

What happens to somebody like me, with numbers clearly above 25%, but outside the median? :roll: