Fordham v. Emory

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
User avatar
boredtodeath
Posts: 632
Joined: Tue May 08, 2012 3:37 pm

Fordham v. Emory

Postby boredtodeath » Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:18 am

Hi all -

Struggling with this decision right now. Fordham at near sticker (could commute from home but don't plan to at the moment) or Emory with 78k scholly.

My goals: A job paying enough money to pay back my debt. Want to do IP eventually (non patent) but I know that doesn't matter at this point. I'm from NY and would prefer to work/live here eventually.

I guess the question is what are my chances of making it back to NY with a degree from Emory?

Secondly, if the chances of making it back to NY from Emory are slim, does the $$ plus Emory's strong placement in Atlanta still make it a better option than Fordham?

User avatar
Doorkeeper
Posts: 4872
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:25 pm

Re: Fordham v. Emory

Postby Doorkeeper » Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:24 am

Neither option is very good.

Fordham has only 57% of the class doing full-time legal work. 25% are in biglaw, which is what you'd need. Fordham near sticker is not a good option.

Emory has 69% full-time legal employment, but only 19% are biglaw, and only 11% of the class goes to NY.

Emory is the safer choice overall for a job, but you're less likely to get biglaw and less likely to get a NYC job.
Last edited by Doorkeeper on Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Robespierre
Posts: 512
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:02 pm

Re: Fordham v. Emory

Postby Robespierre » Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:25 am

For each school, how much debt would you have upon graduation?

JetsFan1990
Posts: 125
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:41 am

Re: Fordham v. Emory

Postby JetsFan1990 » Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:26 am

Does Emory even have particularly strong placement in Atlanta? From my understanding, they only put about 11-12% of their class into biglaw firms. Still, given your options, you basically have no choice. Fordham at near sticker, even if you're commuting, is unreasonable.

JetsFan1990
Posts: 125
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:41 am

Re: Fordham v. Emory

Postby JetsFan1990 » Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:28 am

Doorkeeper wrote:Neither option is very good.

Fordham has only 57% of the class doing full-time legal work. 25% are in biglaw, which is what you'd need. Fordham near sticker is not a good option.

Emory has 69% full-time legal employment, but only 19% are biglaw, and only 11% of the class goes to NY.

Emory is the safer choice overall for a job, but you're less likely to get biglaw and less likely to get a NYC job.


Where are you getting these numbers? According to NLJ250 "Go-To Schools," Fordham is around 20%; Emory 12%.

User avatar
Doorkeeper
Posts: 4872
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:25 pm

Re: Fordham v. Emory

Postby Doorkeeper » Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:33 am

JetsFan1990 wrote:
Doorkeeper wrote:Neither option is very good.

Fordham has only 57% of the class doing full-time legal work. 25% are in biglaw, which is what you'd need. Fordham near sticker is not a good option.

Emory has 69% full-time legal employment, but only 19% are biglaw, and only 11% of the class goes to NY.

Emory is the safer choice overall for a job, but you're less likely to get biglaw and less likely to get a NYC job.


Where are you getting these numbers? According to NLJ250 "Go-To Schools," Fordham is around 20%; Emory 12%.

Law School Transparency.

User avatar
flem
Posts: 12949
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:44 pm

Re: Fordham v. Emory

Postby flem » Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:34 am

JetsFan1990 wrote:Does Emory even have particularly strong placement in Atlanta? From my understanding, they only put about 11-12% of their class into biglaw firms. Still, given your options, you basically have no choice. Fordham at near sticker, even if you're commuting, is unreasonable.


It's tough to say, because Emory is a school that seems intent on not owning local firms, and rather being national or quasi-national. Less than half of grads take the bar in Georgia. I think their placement can be attributed to people vastly overestimating the school's placement power. As far as ATL hiring goes, Emory and UGA are basically peers, though big firms might dig slightly deeper into Emory's class.

RE: Doorkeeper's point about 19% in biglaw and 11% work in NY, I'd bet there's a significant overlap between the two. Top 10% at Emory will likely ship out for big city work.

RodneyBoonfield
Posts: 309
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:54 pm

Re: Fordham v. Emory

Postby RodneyBoonfield » Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:36 am

Doorkeeper wrote:
JetsFan1990 wrote:
Doorkeeper wrote:Neither option is very good.

Fordham has only 57% of the class doing full-time legal work. 25% are in biglaw, which is what you'd need. Fordham near sticker is not a good option.

Emory has 69% full-time legal employment, but only 19% are biglaw, and only 11% of the class goes to NY.

Emory is the safer choice overall for a job, but you're less likely to get biglaw and less likely to get a NYC job.


Where are you getting these numbers? According to NLJ250 "Go-To Schools," Fordham is around 20%; Emory 12%.

Law School Transparency.


The Go-To Schools list only shows NLJ 250 biglaw placement, correct?

User avatar
flem
Posts: 12949
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:44 pm

Re: Fordham v. Emory

Postby flem » Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:36 am

JetsFan1990 wrote:Where are you getting these numbers? According to NLJ250 "Go-To Schools," Fordham is around 20%; Emory 12%.


Not every "large" firm is on the NLJ250. Also some NLJ250 qualifying firms are super TTT.

JetsFan1990
Posts: 125
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:41 am

Re: Fordham v. Emory

Postby JetsFan1990 » Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:41 am

Doorkeeper wrote:
JetsFan1990 wrote:
Doorkeeper wrote:Neither option is very good.

Fordham has only 57% of the class doing full-time legal work. 25% are in biglaw, which is what you'd need. Fordham near sticker is not a good option.

Emory has 69% full-time legal employment, but only 19% are biglaw, and only 11% of the class goes to NY.

Emory is the safer choice overall for a job, but you're less likely to get biglaw and less likely to get a NYC job.


Where are you getting these numbers? According to NLJ250 "Go-To Schools," Fordham is around 20%; Emory 12%.

Law School Transparency.


Duh, that makes sense. haha sorry.

User avatar
boredtodeath
Posts: 632
Joined: Tue May 08, 2012 3:37 pm

Re: Fordham v. Emory

Postby boredtodeath » Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:38 pm

Robespierre wrote:For each school, how much debt would you have upon graduation?


Fordham ~250k
Emory ~175k

I've done all the math and realize these numbers are shitty and that making six figures from either school comes down to being in the top XX% of the class. I've seen the LST data as well. I don't know as much about Emory though and was wondering what their 68% employment score on LST really equates to. I know their biglaw score is what was quoted above. I'm trying to figure out what both these scores mean for someone who stays in the south. Do they have a better shot at paying off 175k as opposed to someone from Fordham gunning for NY and then paying off 250k?

User avatar
flem
Posts: 12949
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:44 pm

Re: Fordham v. Emory

Postby flem » Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:40 pm

boredtodeath wrote:Fordham ~250k
Emory ~175k

I've done all the math and realize these numbers are shitty and that making six figures from either school comes down to being in the top XX% of the class. I've seen the LST data as well. I don't know as much about Emory though and was wondering what their 68% employment score on LST really equates to. I know their biglaw score is what was quoted above. I'm trying to figure out what both these scores mean for someone who stays in the south. Do they have a better shot at paying off 175k as opposed to someone from Fordham gunning for NY and then paying off 250k?


You have roughly an 80% chance of being abjectly fucked either way from a pure odds standpoint. That is an egregious amount of debt for those odds. Retake or don't go.

User avatar
Robespierre
Posts: 512
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:02 pm

Re: Fordham v. Emory

Postby Robespierre » Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:48 pm

boredtodeath wrote:
Robespierre wrote:For each school, how much debt would you have upon graduation?


Fordham ~250k
Emory ~175k

I've done all the math and realize these numbers are shitty and that making six figures from either school comes down to being in the top XX% of the class. I've seen the LST data as well. I don't know as much about Emory though and was wondering what their 68% employment score on LST really equates to. I know their biglaw score is what was quoted above. I'm trying to figure out what both these scores mean for someone who stays in the south. Do they have a better shot at paying off 175k as opposed to someone from Fordham gunning for NY and then paying off 250k?


Sorry, my friend, that's just too much debt for schools that are leaving 40% of their grads unemployed or underemployed in this economy. Bad choices in your situation.

Beware of that 68% Emory employment score; it includes a lot of school-funded stopgap jobs.

If you MUST choose, do Emory because the debt is lower and because it allows you to wage a two-front employment war (i.e. Atlanta and NYC).

User avatar
noleknight16
Posts: 943
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2010 3:09 am

Re: Fordham v. Emory

Postby noleknight16 » Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:25 pm

Neither. Retake. That's too much debt

DerekTokaz
Posts: 50
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:16 pm

Re: Fordham v. Emory

Postby DerekTokaz » Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:08 am

Robespierre wrote:For each school, how much debt would you have upon graduation?

This is how prospective students should look at it. Not what is the size of the discount, but what is the final cost. The original tuition at most schools is marked up significantly, and then discounted, giving students the false impression that they're getting a deal. Looking at actual expenses puts things back into perspective.

flem wrote:Not every "large" firm is on the NLJ250. Also some NLJ250 qualifying firms are super TTT.

For LST's purposes, a "large" firm is one with 101 or more attorneys. NLJ250 is about 160+. NALP categories are 101-250, 251-500, and 501+, which is why LST gets different numbers than NLJ250.

And yes, even some NLJ250 firms are pretty TTT. I know at least one starts at $80,000. And, big firm placement stats don't distinguish between the main market offices and satellite offices.

DerekTokaz
Posts: 50
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:16 pm

Re: Fordham v. Emory

Postby DerekTokaz » Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:14 am

Robespierre wrote:If you MUST choose, do Emory because the debt is lower and because it allows you to wage a two-front employment war (i.e. Atlanta and NYC).

Unless he's Raymond K. Hessel, he doesn't have to choose either.

ze2151
Posts: 358
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:51 pm

Re: Fordham v. Emory

Postby ze2151 » Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:27 am

basic economics rule is never to take on an amount of educational debt that would surpass your 1st year earning potential. will you make 175k when you get out? highly unlikely.

unless you can find a way to mitigate that debt, through a 20hr/wk job to offset living expenses, savings, etc... then you just shouldn't do it. there are other careers.

User avatar
rickgrimes69
Posts: 1107
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:56 am

Re: Fordham v. Emory

Postby rickgrimes69 » Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:55 am

ze2151 wrote:basic economics rule is never to take on an amount of educational debt that would surpass your 1st year earning potential. will you make 175k when you get out? highly unlikely.

unless you can find a way to mitigate that debt, through a 20hr/wk job to offset living expenses, savings, etc... then you just shouldn't do it. there are other careers.


This sort of stops making sense when you get to the T14. I don't think anybody would argue that HYS isn't worth sticker, but their grads likely won't be making $270k their first year.

DerekTokaz
Posts: 50
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:16 pm

Re: Fordham v. Emory

Postby DerekTokaz » Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:03 pm

rickgrimes69 wrote:
ze2151 wrote:basic economics rule is never to take on an amount of educational debt that would surpass your 1st year earning potential. will you make 175k when you get out? highly unlikely.

unless you can find a way to mitigate that debt, through a 20hr/wk job to offset living expenses, savings, etc... then you just shouldn't do it. there are other careers.


This sort of stops making sense when you get to the T14. I don't think anybody would argue that HYS isn't worth sticker, but their grads likely won't be making $270k their first year.

While I wouldn't make the argument that it isn't worth sticker, I will make the argument that the value is debatable. I think at HYS we can stipulate that if you want a BigLaw job, you can get one. Trouble is keeping it. Lots of big firms have associate attrition rates of 75%+ (over an 8-10 year period), and there's not good data on where associates land when given the boot. Some will go to other firms, some go in house, some do consulting, but we don't know how many do versus how many are spit out of BigLaw after 2 years and have to settle with a smaller firm paying $75,000 a year.

ze2151
Posts: 358
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:51 pm

Re: Fordham v. Emory

Postby ze2151 » Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:06 pm

rickgrimes69 wrote:
ze2151 wrote:basic economics rule is never to take on an amount of educational debt that would surpass your 1st year earning potential. will you make 175k when you get out? highly unlikely.

unless you can find a way to mitigate that debt, through a 20hr/wk job to offset living expenses, savings, etc... then you just shouldn't do it. there are other careers.


This sort of stops making sense when you get to the T14. I don't think anybody would argue that HYS isn't worth sticker, but their grads likely won't be making $270k their first year.



rick, it comes down not just to 1st year exit options, but sustainability. the reason the rule of thumb is a good rule is because, even if you could guarantee a 160k job coming out of hys (you can't) you have to be able to sustain that job long enough to pay down a mountain of debt.

in fact, i would go as far as to say that hys at sticker, financed completely, is a disastrous idea. no one should take out 250k+ in unsecured, high-interest, non-dischargeable debt. and this would only add onto whatever undergrad debt a person is carrying (and someone inclined to finance the entire cost of attendance probably didn't have a lot of money lying around at the undergraduate level and so likely has undergrad debt too). do the math on a 10 yr or 25 yr payment plan for 300k of debt. it's positively insane to advise anyone to take out that kind of student loan debt, unless the person you're advising is going to be a medical doctor (see, the stability caveat).

rad lulz
Posts: 9844
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:53 pm

Re: Fordham v. Emory

Postby rad lulz » Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:10 pm

flem wrote:
JetsFan1990 wrote:Where are you getting these numbers? According to NLJ250 "Go-To Schools," Fordham is around 20%; Emory 12%.


Not every "large" firm is on the NLJ250. Also some NLJ250 qualifying firms are super TTT.

How dare you call Morgan & Morgan at TTT. FOR TEH PEOPLEEE

User avatar
flem
Posts: 12949
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:44 pm

Re: Fordham v. Emory

Postby flem » Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:10 pm

ze2151 wrote:rick, it comes down not just to 1st year exit options, but sustainability. the reason the rule of thumb is a good rule is because, even if you could guarantee a 160k job coming out of hys (you can't) you have to be able to sustain that job long enough to pay down a mountain of debt.

in fact, i would go as far as to say that hys at sticker, financed completely, is a disastrous idea. no one should take out 250k+ in unsecured, high-interest, non-dischargeable debt. and this would only add onto whatever undergrad debt a person is carrying (and someone inclined to finance the entire cost of attendance probably didn't have a lot of money lying around at the undergraduate level and so likely has undergrad debt too). do the math on a 10 yr or 25 yr payment plan for 300k of debt. it's positively insane to advise anyone to take out that kind of student loan debt, unless the person you're advising is going to be a medical doctor (see, the stability caveat).


But hey, YOLO

User avatar
flem
Posts: 12949
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:44 pm

Re: Fordham v. Emory

Postby flem » Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:11 pm

rad lulz wrote:
flem wrote:
JetsFan1990 wrote:Where are you getting these numbers? According to NLJ250 "Go-To Schools," Fordham is around 20%; Emory 12%.


Not every "large" firm is on the NLJ250. Also some NLJ250 qualifying firms are super TTT.

How dare you call Morgan & Morgan at TTT. FOR TEH PEOPLEEE


Glad someone caught who I was explicitly referring to :lol:

rad lulz
Posts: 9844
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:53 pm

Re: Fordham v. Emory

Postby rad lulz » Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:13 pm

ze2151 wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:
ze2151 wrote:basic economics rule is never to take on an amount of educational debt that would surpass your 1st year earning potential. will you make 175k when you get out? highly unlikely.

unless you can find a way to mitigate that debt, through a 20hr/wk job to offset living expenses, savings, etc... then you just shouldn't do it. there are other careers.


This sort of stops making sense when you get to the T14. I don't think anybody would argue that HYS isn't worth sticker, but their grads likely won't be making $270k their first year.



rick, it comes down not just to 1st year exit options, but sustainability. the reason the rule of thumb is a good rule is because, even if you could guarantee a 160k job coming out of hys (you can't) you have to be able to sustain that job long enough to pay down a mountain of debt.

in fact, i would go as far as to say that hys at sticker, financed completely, is a disastrous idea. no one should take out 250k+ in unsecured, high-interest, non-dischargeable debt. and this would only add onto whatever undergrad debt a person is carrying (and someone inclined to finance the entire cost of attendance probably didn't have a lot of money lying around at the undergraduate level and so likely has undergrad debt too). do the math on a 10 yr or 25 yr payment plan for 300k of debt. it's positively insane to advise anyone to take out that kind of student loan debt, unless the person you're advising is going to be a medical doctor (see, the stability caveat).

Then again, HYS have LRAPs that will basically cover you if you like in a ditch soaked in your own vomit.

User avatar
rickgrimes69
Posts: 1107
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:56 am

Re: Fordham v. Emory

Postby rickgrimes69 » Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:26 pm

I will make the argument that the value is debatable.


i would go as far as to say that hys at sticker, financed completely, is a disastrous idea


Ok what is happening here

I'm pretty debt adverse but to say HYS isn't worth sticker just because it's really expensive is sort of ridiculous. $270k is a lot but there's very little risk in terms of your ability to get a job that can service the debt. Whether or not you're any good at it / don't hate it is another matter altogether, but frankly you should maybe figure that out before you go and start a career regardless of how much you pay.

Edit: Also, anybody who pays down $270k on a 25 year repayment plan when they're making $160k is stupid. That's living way beyond their means relative to their debt load and will cost about twice as much in interest compared to a 10 year plan.




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests