How much scholly would it take to make Lower T14 worthwhile?

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mr.hands
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How much scholly would it take to make Lower T14 worthwhile?

Postby mr.hands » Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:01 pm

How much scholarship PER YEAR would it take to make the lower T14 a worthwhile investment? Just for the sake of argument, let's take GULC and UPenn out of the equation.

By this, I DON'T mean how much would it take based on your numbers (e.g. if you have a 177 3.9 and anything below full tuition scholarship is an abomination). Just how much scholarship would it take until you are comfortable rolling the dice?

Since the COL is a lot higher at Chicago and Berkeley than Ann Arbor/Durham/Charlottesville, it may be necessary to distinguish between different schools. For that reason, I won't make a poll.

What do you think? (btw i'm genuinely interested in this question)

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thesealocust
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Re: How much scholly would it take to make Lower T14 worthwhile?

Postby thesealocust » Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:10 pm

$0

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dpk711
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Re: How much scholly would it take to make Lower T14 worthwhile?

Postby dpk711 » Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:11 pm

Depends

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rinkrat19
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Re: How much scholly would it take to make Lower T14 worthwhile?

Postby rinkrat19 » Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:11 pm

I know plenty of people paying sticker at NU. I was planning on it, until I got a somewhat unexpected scholly. So "zero" is probably an answer for a fair number of people.

mr.hands
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Re: How much scholly would it take to make Lower T14 worthwhile?

Postby mr.hands » Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:13 pm

dpk711 wrote:Depends


I'm sure this is true, but for the sake of conversation, can you qualify your answer and/or give a rough estimate?

I'd think i'd be comfortable with a 1/3 *tuition* scholarship. It would be a lot easier to go with more than that, but 1/3 would help ease my fears of ending up in the bottom 1/3 of my class and being screwed.

Although I love NU and it's NLJ numbers are impressive, sticker is scary. $284,000+ is just too much for me to justify (--LinkRemoved--). Even if you do hit it big with a biglaw job, you'd be locked in for so long.
Last edited by mr.hands on Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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flem
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Re: How much scholly would it take to make Lower T14 worthwhile?

Postby flem » Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:14 pm

I wouldn't take anything less than full tuition + stipend at Georgetown but I'd pay sticker anywhere else in the T14

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Robespierre
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Re: How much scholly would it take to make Lower T14 worthwhile?

Postby Robespierre » Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:15 pm

Depends on:

- which lower T14 it is;
- how well it places in your geographical area;
- whether you or your family can absorb part of the cost;
- whether you are committed to public interest and thus will be seeking loan forgiveness;
- what other options you have;
- how debt-averse you are;
- and about 10 other factors.

Can't generalize.

yogurt31
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Re: How much scholly would it take to make Lower T14 worthwhile?

Postby yogurt31 » Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:20 pm

Robespierre wrote:Depends on:

- which lower T14 it is;
- how well it places in your geographical area;
- whether you or your family can absorb part of the cost;
- whether you are committed to public interest and thus will be seeking loan forgiveness;
- what other options you have;
- how debt-averse you are;
- and about 10 other factors.

Can't generalize.


this. how low is lower? it would take a lot more money to get me to georgetown than boalt.

mr.hands
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Re: How much scholly would it take to make Lower T14 worthwhile?

Postby mr.hands » Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:24 pm

Robespierre wrote:Depends on:

- which lower T14 it is;
- how well it places in your geographical area;
- whether you or your family can absorb part of the cost;
- whether you are committed to public interest and thus will be seeking loan forgiveness;
- what other options you have;
- how debt-averse you are;
- and about 10 other factors.

Can't generalize.


By generalize, i don't mean "give just a raw number." That was probably a poor choice of words. I meant specify how much it would take for any given school.

As for the personal preference issues you raise (such as "how debt averse you are") that's why i'm asking for your opinion. I realize there isn't a subjective answer. That's, obviously, why i'm asking in the first place...

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Robespierre
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Re: How much scholly would it take to make Lower T14 worthwhile?

Postby Robespierre » Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:30 pm

I think you mean there isn't an objective answer. Only subjective ones.

My subjective answer is that my numbers were very marginal for the T14 so I was tremendously lucky to get in at all. And I can pay a big chunk of the COA through my savings and my family's resources. And I didn't like my other options. So for me, I'm happy to pay sticker at a lower T14, which I'm doing.

mr.hands
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Re: How much scholly would it take to make Lower T14 worthwhile?

Postby mr.hands » Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:32 pm

Robespierre wrote:I think you mean there isn't an objective answer. Only subjective ones.

My subjective answer is that my numbers were very marginal for the T14 so I was tremendously lucky to get in at all. And I can pay a big chunk of the COA through my savings and my family's resources. So for me, I'm happy to pay sticker at a lower T14, which I'm doing.


Lol, yes there are *only* subjective answers. That's why i'm asking in the first place.

Thanks :oops:

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rayiner
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Re: How much scholly would it take to make Lower T14 worthwhile?

Postby rayiner » Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:37 pm

Depends on your alternatives. On a purely monetary, statistical level, $0 would make most of the lower T14 worthwhile so long as your alternatives aren't like a $100k/year job in accounting.

izzy2977
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Re: How much scholly would it take to make Lower T14 worthwhile?

Postby izzy2977 » Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:07 pm

$0 is perfectly fine for the T14. It will definitely pay off

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dpk711
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Re: How much scholly would it take to make Lower T14 worthwhile?

Postby dpk711 » Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:08 pm

izzy2977 wrote:$0 is perfectly fine for the T14. It will definitely pay off

This might be a bit too optimistic. But I guess it depends which T14 -- frankly I don't think GULC is worth sticker.

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Lawquacious
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Re: How much scholly would it take to make Lower T14 worthwhile?

Postby Lawquacious » Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:12 pm

mr.hands wrote: Just for the sake of argument, let's take GULC and UPenn out of the equation. )



Scratching my head.... Don't want to be in Philly or DC?

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Lawquacious
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Re: How much scholly would it take to make Lower T14 worthwhile?

Postby Lawquacious » Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:18 pm

dpk711 wrote:
izzy2977 wrote:$0 is perfectly fine for the T14. It will definitely pay off

This might be a bit too optimistic. But I guess it depends which T14 -- frankly I don't think GULC is worth sticker.



This is such a hard thing to say one way or the other categorically. So much of what makes it worth it or not has to do with particular circumstances (e.g. what are other options beside law school; is law something you passionately want to practice for a lifetime career or are you just hoping to make money etc). Also, I suppose the appropriate concept to apply here is 'expected value' (in terms of economics), although in a case-by-case basis I think there are plenty of people for whom even CCN didn't end up being worth it, looking at it ex post (perhaps even a few from HYS fit in this, but obviously not many).

But yeah, from a very rough, global expected value perspective, I imagine that it is around the T14, possssibly excluding GULC, or arguably the T10 or T6, where the mean risk-to-payoff for graduates right out of school makes it a 'good investment.' And HYS there isn't too much question about even ITE, unless you aren't sure about wanting to practice law and have other good options.

mr.hands
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Re: How much scholly would it take to make Lower T14 worthwhile?

Postby mr.hands » Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:33 am

Lawquacious wrote:
mr.hands wrote: Just for the sake of argument, let's take GULC and UPenn out of the equation. )



Scratching my head.... Don't want to be in Philly or DC?


No I think GULC is clearly inferior in biglaw placement and. Fed clerkships so I wanted to remove that from the equation. UPenn is closer to T6 in a lot of ways so I removed that school. I wanted to focus on schools with comparable placement rates

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Samara
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Re: How much scholly would it take to make Lower T14 worthwhile?

Postby Samara » Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:35 am

GULC is hated on too much on TLS, but this is pretty much an impossible question to answer anyway, so whatever.

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Lawquacious
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Re: How much scholly would it take to make Lower T14 worthwhile?

Postby Lawquacious » Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:40 am

mr.hands wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:
mr.hands wrote: Just for the sake of argument, let's take GULC and UPenn out of the equation. )



Scratching my head.... Don't want to be in Philly or DC?


No I think GULC is clearly inferior in biglaw placement and. Fed clerkships so I wanted to remove that from the equation. UPenn is closer to T6 in a lot of ways so I removed that school. I wanted to focus on schools with comparable placement rates


ok, fair points

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BruceWayne
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Re: How much scholly would it take to make Lower T14 worthwhile?

Postby BruceWayne » Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:41 am

Looking back on it, and knowing what I know now, I don't think any of the non HYS schools should cost you more than 180K total. NU sure as hell isn't worth 285K and UVA isn't worth whatever it is that I'm paying now (probably like 250K). HYS are the only schools where bottom 1/3 still means biglaw (hell in the case of Y/S biglaw in a secondary market even). Outside of that your chances of missing biglaw if you reside in the bottom 1/3 are HUGE.

Honestly, it's better to go to a strong regional where your numbers are better than most of the class with a half tuition or higher scholly.

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DaleCooper
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Re: How much scholly would it take to make Lower T14 worthwhile?

Postby DaleCooper » Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:16 pm

IMO it's somewhere around $0, unless you have:

1.) Some way to make $90k+ that doesn't involve going to law school or getting shot at, or;
2.) Significant personality or emotional problems alongside the typical Generation Y fatalism.

I'm including Georgetown in this assessment. People on TLS can be kind of ridiculous, and there seems to be an assumption that everyone not doing NLJ250 or Article III is living in a cardboard box. But a majority of Georgetown's grads do really well, and even if you end up TLS-Underemployed it's still not the end of the world unless you made crazy sacrifices to get there. All the Lower-T14 Flameouts I know managed to get decent-paying midlaw jobs in their low-COL home market or LRAPable "JD preferred" jobs that sound kind of fun and probably wouldn't have been available if they were just Poli Sci majors with no connections. They don't seem that depressed about their fate... working on Capitol Hill or in Raleigh is way better than being a barista or waiting tables, which is where they would have been otherwise.

Not to mention that girls in bars are way more impressed by Georgetown, Cornell, and Duke degrees than Chicago or NYU degrees. :(

In fact, now that I think about it, my T14 Flameout friends seem happier than most of my V20 friends. Worst case scenario, not working 80 hours a week makes Marrying Up significantly easier.

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BruceWayne
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Re: How much scholly would it take to make Lower T14 worthwhile?

Postby BruceWayne » Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:34 pm

DaleCooper wrote:IMO it's somewhere around $0, unless you have:

1.) Some way to make $90k+ that doesn't involve going to law school or getting shot at, or;
2.) Significant personality or emotional problems alongside the typical Generation Y fatalism.

I'm including Georgetown in this assessment. People on TLS can be kind of ridiculous, and there seems to be an assumption that everyone not doing NLJ250 or Article III is living in a cardboard box. But a majority of Georgetown's grads do really well, and even if you end up TLS-Underemployed it's still not the end of the world unless you made crazy sacrifices to get there. All the Lower-T14 Flameouts I know managed to get decent-paying midlaw jobs in their low-COL home market or LRAPable "JD preferred" jobs that sound kind of fun and probably wouldn't have been available if they were just Poli Sci majors with no connections. They don't seem that depressed about their fate... working on Capitol Hill or in Raleigh is way better than being a barista or waiting tables, which is where they would have been otherwise.

Not to mention that girls in bars are way more impressed by Georgetown, Cornell, and Duke degrees than Chicago or NYU degrees. :(


In fact, now that I think about it, my T14 Flameout friends seem happier than most of my V20 friends. Worst case scenario, not working 80 hours a week makes Marrying Up significantly easier.



Wow, I guess GULC is a much better school than UVA then, because that's definitely not what's happening to many of the people I know here who "flamed" out.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: How much scholly would it take to make Lower T14 worthwhile?

Postby BarbellDreams » Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:54 pm

Depends on how debt adverse you are. I would go to any T14 at sticker. I think outside of GULC all other schools are a fairly smart investment even at sticker. I know people who would only go HYS at sticker cause they are debt adverse. I lol at those people though.

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BruceWayne
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Re: How much scholly would it take to make Lower T14 worthwhile?

Postby BruceWayne » Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:05 pm

BarbellDreams wrote:Depends on how debt adverse you are. I would go to any T14 at sticker. I think outside of GULC all other schools are a fairly smart investment even at sticker. I know people who would only go HYS at sticker cause they are debt adverse. I lol at those people though.


What do you do to those people who went to a top 14 sticker and end up unemployed with 270K debt?

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flem
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Re: How much scholly would it take to make Lower T14 worthwhile?

Postby flem » Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:09 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:Depends on how debt adverse you are. I would go to any T14 at sticker. I think outside of GULC all other schools are a fairly smart investment even at sticker. I know people who would only go HYS at sticker cause they are debt adverse. I lol at those people though.


What do you do to those people who went to a top 14 sticker and end up unemployed with 270K debt?


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