Maryland $$$ vs. Utah $--want to work in Utah

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emlo
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Maryland $$$ vs. Utah $--want to work in Utah

Postby emlo » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:53 pm

I'm a Utah native with a strong desire to practice environmental law (likely gov't work) in Utah after graduation (or soon thereafter...within 5 years after graduation preferably). I've been offered nearly full-ride at Maryland at 30k per year, no stips, where I have no connections, no family, no nothing. But it's almost law school for free, minus the COL increase from Utah to Baltimore. I've also been offered Utah with a nearly full tuition scholly for the first year only...it's a non renewable scholarship despite my negotiating with them.

Essentially I'm looking at $20,000 debt at Maryland with no job connections or $50,000-55,000 debt at Utah with multiple connections and a gateway into the market where I want to live.

Thoughts? Am I stupid to think I could make my way back from Maryland eventually, especially not having to worry about debt as much? Or do I bite the bigger debt bullet with Utah?

CanadianWolf
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Re: Maryland $$$ vs. Utah $--want to work in Utah

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:57 pm

Utah. If you do well, then transfer to a T-14 law school.

OR Maryland. If you do well, transfer to a T-14 law school; if not, then enjoy tuition-free law school.

OR Sit out & retake the LSAT. Utah current law facilities are not too good, but a new building is scheduled for 2014. Applications to law school should decline further this cycle, so you could aim higher & still receive scholarship offers.
Last edited by CanadianWolf on Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dixon02
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Re: Maryland $$$ vs. Utah $--want to work in Utah

Postby dixon02 » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:58 pm

If you're dead set on living settling in Utah and wouldn't be happy if you get stuck in Maryland, then you should probably go to Utah. That said, you need to do some thinking about what you, what's realistic, and what you would be ok with. You want to do environmental work for the government and live in Utah? How many people have that job? Like a dozen?

emlo
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Re: Maryland $$$ vs. Utah $--want to work in Utah

Postby emlo » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:12 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Utah. If you do well, then transfer to a T-14 law school.

OR Maryland. If you do well, transfer to a T-14 law school; if not, then enjoy tuition-free law school.

OR Sit out & retake the LSAT. Utah current law facilities are not too good, but a new building is scheduled for 2014. Applications to law school should decline further this cycle, so you could aim higher & still receive scholarship offers.


I'm not interested in the T-14/Biglaw/no life route. This should be evidenced by my desire to do government work (or some sort of small time private environmental litigation). I'm completely fine with a Utah/Maryland education and the amount of income that follows. I'm more interested in the debt amount to being stuck somewhere I don't want to live ratio.

dixon02 wrote:If you're dead set on living settling in Utah and wouldn't be happy if you get stuck in Maryland, then you should probably go to Utah. That said, you need to do some thinking about what you, what's realistic, and what you would be ok with. You want to do environmental work for the government and live in Utah? How many people have that job? Like a dozen?


Noted. I think the enviro law situation in Utah may be a bit more promising than you're leading on (water rights/private and public land issues/energy development issues aren't going anywhere soon), but I hear you.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Maryland $$$ vs. Utah $--want to work in Utah

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:25 pm

I was referring to the portability of a T-14 law degree, not suggesting biglaw as an alternative career choice. Plus, if you do well at Utah & get a transfer acceptance to a T-14 or two, you might be surprised at how quickly Utah might find additional scholarship funds for your second & third years.

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Nova
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Re: Maryland $$$ vs. Utah $--want to work in Utah

Postby Nova » Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:00 pm

55k debt from Utah is completely reasonable. Moving to Maryland with no intention of staying is a bad move. Also, UMDs employment data sucks.

Utah wrote:•68.7% of graduates were known to be employed in long-term, full-time legal jobs. This figure includes an unknown number school-funded jobs.
•83.6% graduates were employed in long-term jobs.
•82.1% graduates were employed in full-time jobs.

Maryland wrote:•47.1% of graduates were known to be employed in long-term, full-time legal jobs. This figure includes no school-funded jobs..
•78.5% graduates were employed in long-term jobs.
•74.7% graduates were employed in full-time jobs.

--LinkRemoved--

ifigotoschool
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Re: Maryland $$$ vs. Utah $--want to work in Utah

Postby ifigotoschool » Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:03 pm

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Last edited by ifigotoschool on Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

emlo
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Re: Maryland $$$ vs. Utah $--want to work in Utah

Postby emlo » Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:12 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:I was referring to the portability of a T-14 law degree, not suggesting biglaw as an alternative career choice. Plus, if you do well at Utah & get a transfer acceptance to a T-14 or two, you might be surprised at how quickly Utah might find additional scholarship funds for your second & third years.


Point well taken...I think if I'm in that situation, that'd definitely be an option. But I'm not confident enough to plan on it, obviously.

Nova wrote:55k debt from Utah is completely reasonable. Moving to Maryland with no intention of staying is a bad move. Also, UMDs employment data sucks.


The employment data is probably my biggest concern. The only reason I am still considering UMD is for the extremely low cost--it eliminates a good deal of the risk associated with law school in my mind...thus balancing out the employment situation in a way. If I find myself in a bad position at the end of everything at UMD, I'm fine financially. If that happens at Utah, I'm mildly more screwed.

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Teflon_Jeff
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Re: Maryland $$$ vs. Utah $--want to work in Utah

Postby Teflon_Jeff » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:13 pm

Utah is definitely correct here.

Plus, make some transfer applications. It is likely to scare up some tuition money for the second and third years, or possibly put you into a T-14.

Either way, best of luck!

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Doorkeeper
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Re: Maryland $$$ vs. Utah $--want to work in Utah

Postby Doorkeeper » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:28 pm

Go Utah. 55k from a state law school with decent to good employment prospects is fine.

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romothesavior
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Re: Maryland $$$ vs. Utah $--want to work in Utah

Postby romothesavior » Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:34 pm

Doorkeeper wrote:Go Utah. 55k from a state law school with decent to good employment prospects is fine.

Definitely this. Especially since that's where you want to work.

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nickb285
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Re: Maryland $$$ vs. Utah $--want to work in Utah

Postby nickb285 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:13 am

[Insert pre-application status talking out of my ass disclaimer]

Speaking as a Utah enviro law hopeful (damn, we're cool!) I agree with the posters who say go to Utah, for their reasons plus one additional--environmental clinics and certain classes in Maryland are going to have little relevance to Utah. Water law, for instance, is handled differently back east than it is out west (riparian versus prior appropriation doctrine), so it seems like not only would Utah provide you with better networking opportunities for working here, it would also give you more chances at relevant work/clinical experience. If you want to live and practice environmental law in Utah, you're better off staying out here.
Last edited by nickb285 on Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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No13baby
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Re: Maryland $$$ vs. Utah $--want to work in Utah

Postby No13baby » Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:09 pm

The recruiting for smaller firms/UT gov't positions will also be much easier from University of Utah. The kinds of jobs you're looking for won't recruit from Maryland, and it will be much easier to get where you want when you're local.

emlo
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Re: Maryland $$$ vs. Utah $--want to work in Utah

Postby emlo » Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:24 pm

Thanks everyone...you've all echoed most of my own thoughts, so I'm reassured. For those attending Utah, I'll likely see you this August. Also, someone at UMD is about to get more $$$...you're welcome!

JamesChapman23
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Re: Maryland $$$ vs. Utah $--want to work in Utah

Postby JamesChapman23 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:30 am

How do you figure 50k? It's going to be at least 50k for the tution (2 years at 25k), plus living expenses, plus interest that accures while you are in school. That is easily closer to 75k.

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Teflon_Jeff
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Re: Maryland $$$ vs. Utah $--want to work in Utah

Postby Teflon_Jeff » Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:42 am

COL should be much lower in SLC though, compared to Bodymore.

emlo
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Re: Maryland $$$ vs. Utah $--want to work in Utah

Postby emlo » Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:40 pm

JamesChapman23 wrote:How do you figure 50k? It's going to be at least 50k for the tution (2 years at 25k), plus living expenses, plus interest that accures while you are in school. That is easily closer to 75k.


I've got most of tuition covered via scholarship for this year, but it's non-renewable. In-state tuition, at 22k, would put me at 45k-ish just for tuition (assuming no new scholarship is gained for 2nd and 3rd year, which Utah is generous with). COL is covered by my wife, who works. +/- 10k for safety net and interest accrual and there's my 55k.

bloobook
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Postby bloobook » Fri Jul 27, 2012 3:05 pm

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Last edited by bloobook on Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Nova
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Re: Maryland $$$ vs. Utah $--want to work in Utah

Postby Nova » Fri Jul 27, 2012 3:17 pm

bloobook wrote:What's the difference between COA at Maryland and COA at Utah, all scholarships included? I'd probably go with the cheaper option. Or, let your wife decide. ;)


The difference is in the OP. ~30k

~30k is not worth moving 2,000 miles away from where one wants to practice to attend a school that has significantly worse job placement...

PolySuyGuy
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Re: Maryland $$$ vs. Utah $--want to work in Utah

Postby PolySuyGuy » Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:51 pm

Good luck with the Utah inversion.


Image

emlo
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Re: Maryland $$$ vs. Utah $--want to work in Utah

Postby emlo » Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:00 pm

PolySuyGuy wrote:Good luck with the Utah inversion.


Been in it for 20 years, thanks.

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TTTehehe
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Re: Maryland $$$ vs. Utah $--want to work in Utah

Postby TTTehehe » Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:06 pm

Not sure if you chose already, but my vote is Maryland. Utah is not worth the debt.

Edit: I think you chose Utah, but I'll chime in on why MD for people next cycle that may be in your situation.

1. 55k debt is not worth it for a rank 47 school. Sorry. At near full scholly, I'd be willing to move 2k mile to be light on debt. I know some people are afraid of moving, but to each their own.

2. If you wanted a job in Utah immediately after graduation, I would have said "Fine, Utah." However, you stated within 5 years. You also stated that you wanted government work. You'll be hard pressed to go straight from Utah to government work. Clerking or firm experience is almost mandatory for government law, unless you come from a heavy hitter school.

People are pointing to employment stats at UMD as if it is a career ender for you. I don't think Utah's stats are much better. Furthermore, you have to look at the market. UMD competes against GULC, GW, UVA, and other elite schools in the D.C./VA area, and also elite T14s that come into D.C. Utah competes with BYU? And maybe some local ties T14s. Initially, this may make you think Utah is a better choice, but you have to compare job opportunities in the D.C. area vs. Utah.

You say you want government work? No shortage in D.C. I used to commute 3 hours one way, 3 times a week to D.C. just for a Senate Committee Legal Internship. You can't get experience like that in Utah. UMD is about 45 minutes away from D.C. The internships alone are worth UMD if you want government work.

3. You want to go back to Utah and work in government. Awesome. You go to UMD, you do well there and stay, or you do well there and transfer. Either way, you get government internships there that can 1. lead to government attorney positions. 2. JD preferred government positions. Or, 3. government contracting JD or JD preferred positions. All three options will help you get into Fed Gov, State Gov, or Local Gov jobs in Utah.

Oh, and you'll have less non-dischargeable debt.




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